Does Permadeath wear on you after you've played a ton?

[CarterG]

I have played Don't Starve, probably more than the vast majority of games I've ever played. At first, I loved the permadeath. For the first 20 hours, permadeath *made* the game better in every way.

 

Once I unlocked everyone, which was quite rapid since I played so often and for so long each session, permadeath lost the majority of its flare. Still, it wasn't good or bad, but became a neutral feature.

 

After about 60 hours in, permadeath started to be nothing more than annoying. Especially in Adventure Mode. It went from good (0 hours) to neutral (unlocked all achievements) to a bad feature (60+ hours).

 

 

If you still get fun out of the permadeath feature, even to this day, then please do not answer the question. This question is from me, a developer who wants to implement permadeath into his game, but wants to know if anyone else experienced what I experienced. Love for the feature, which faded into hate for it in the particular game of Don't Starve.
 

So I want to ask users this:

 

1) Did you support permadeath when you first started playing? If you always thought it was a bad feature (wasn't fun or harmed the fun of the game) then state so, and why. Skip question 2 if you always thought it was a bad feature.

 

2) If you did find permadeath to be a good feature (added to the fun), but then later became a bad feature (subtracted from the fun), then at what point in your gameplay did it change? Was it because of how far you got? Was it after a certain number of hours playing? Was it after all unlocks? Was it after you became an expert?


I have heard so far, that people like or don't mind permadeath- until they are really advanced into the game. For example, once past Day 40, suffering permadeath makes them quit the game.

I personally, loved the feature to death up until I unlocked everything, and once I became an expert at the game- abhor it because it does nothing but cause me to lose time over silly reasons such as input failure, or not paying attention to combat bc of how boring combat is. (I love the non-combat aspects of this game. Could care less for the uninteresting combat.)

[The_Cookiebeast]

It hasn't worn off on me because it is just a natural part of the game, what is a survival game without the prospect of death? but i think there was a mod to not lose your save upon death, on the website before workshop was added. I'm pretty sure the mod is outdated now though, maybe check it out and see if you can find it? Also your question doesnt make much sense, you are saying that if people do not agree with you on the topic of permadeath then they shouldnt answer.... I think you should ask not only why people dislike it but why some people like it so as to get both sides on the topic. Not trying to mess with you or anything because i can understand that permadeath can be frustrating just some constructive criticism.

[CarterG]

Oh, I already know all of that. I've played a ton.

I don't play the game anymore, due to the needless updates. I had tons of fun since hte beginning, and didn't care for the updates after Strange New Powers. But the updates keep killing all of the mods I love.

Now, I only have 2 of the 14 mods I ran. The others are out dated. So I gave up on it and quit.

 

Couldn't find any information on how to rollback to previous versions, to get my mods to work. Damn Steam and its auto-update killed my game. I'd rather play the unupdated version with all my mods, than the updated version with features I don't care about.

Oh well. Klei doesn't like its users to "Play it your way." They want to force me to play it their way. Kindof strange they even have a mod system, if you ask me. They could at the very least have made it to where the updates don't break the mods.

 

 

 

Note: I updated the thread with a poll. Meant to start it with one.

[TeoSS69]

How will you address the alt-f4 trick if you implement it? As head of a cult this interests me.

[Avid Aficionado]

I'm not bothered by permadeath because I'm never too invested in my save games in the first place. I have a habit of starting new save games and my runs rarely pass the 40 day mark because of it. I like starting from scratch, is the thing.

 

I have to say that I have the opposite stance on the combat. I enjoy kiting enemies and the addition of the Force Attack button has made it a lot easier to avoid misclicking or making wrong actions.

[Hpfm2]

When I get really far, like past Day 40+

 

 

Hahaha,,, Day 40, really far...

 

You're funny.

[Cynical Cynicist]

Meat effigies. Use them.

[Hpfm2]

^ That. I always have one up.

[jbeetle]

The Yes answers have little to do with permadeath anyway.

[Cacahuatoforo]

In my opinion, perma-death is a good feature, it gives you a feeling of prudence in the game, it makes you pay for your mistakes, and makes you learn from them, resulting in you becoming a better player.

 

For instance, a Spider Queen kills you, you respawn at your effigy, and then you have to choose if either you return to try to get your stuff, risking to lose your world, or go home to prepare to recover them, build a new effigie, and waste important time, without the risk of perma-death you'll just go to try to recover your stuff, die, and repeat, eventually you will recover them all and move on, but... what's the point? keep playing and keep dying until you become the Don't Starve Overlord?

 

I always turn off touch stones in my worlds, to make each one a challenge, at first, until I get a meat effigy, then I move to a next one. But I won't lie you... whenever I die on my world 3 day 120 (the serious one) file I ragequit and stop playing for a week  XD, then I make a new world.

 

It doesn't matter how good you are at the game, you are a human, and you will eventually make a mistake and die, and have to start over, but that is fine, it just renews the challenge of the game, making it fun again (it gets boring when you have all recipes and 2 effigies laying on your base, next to your 10 bee boxes and 20 meat racks, under your 30 farm plots and meat farm).

[lunchb0x]

Perma-death just makes me more prudent and prepared for the worst case scenarios.

 

I have my meet effigy walled off in a corner of my base with 20 blowdarts thelucite weapons and armour, winter clothing and a lantern. I have my touchstones set up with a telelocator staff and lantern that will transport me to the same walled off area my meat effigy is stored in. I also keep a Meat Effigy pre-built in my inventory so I can quickly place one when necessary.

[Hpfm2]

. I also keep a Meat Effigy pre-built in my inventory so I can quickly place one when necessary.

That's really smart!

[Boar Head]

Not really. It's been a really long time since I lost a world permanently though so I don't know. But I don't think permadeath happens enough in this game because once you've gotten experienced enough it will be very difficult for you to die permanently. Unless you restrict yourself by not allowing meat effigies and things like that.

[jbeetle]

Not really. It's been a really long time since I lost a world permanently though so I don't know. But I don't think permadeath happens enough in this game because once you've gotten experienced enough it will be very difficult for you to die permanently. Unless you restrict yourself by not allowing meat effigies and things like that.

yea, I agree. that's why I said the Yes options don't really make sense.

[FDru]

I don't know if I'd call permadeath "fun" but that's the only option that makes sense. Because the more harsh dying is, the more fun it is to avoid it.

[KidneyBeanBoy]

You forgot to add: I hated it at first, (I got too attached to my world) but after a while I started to like the challenge it presented.

[Blucher]

I love no-reload/ironman/perma-death whatever, but usually only on my terns. Doesn't bother me in this game. I will say that if the game had a bit more structure to it (a well define win scenario for instance or a stronger builder compnent), I'd probably enjoy it more. Dunno really.

[Cynical Cynicist]

I've made a LOT of, if not most of my mistakes in my longest world spanning almost up to 400 days. There have been a lot of times when I pitted myself in dangerous situations, rebuilt entire sections of my base and tried out various strategies. Overall, having avoided death throughout all of that was a really rewarding feeling.

[CarterG]

I'm not bothered by permadeath because I'm never too invested in my save games in the first place. I have a habit of starting new save games and my runs rarely pass the 40 day mark because of it. I like starting from scratch, is the thing.

 

I have to say that I have the opposite stance on the combat. I enjoy kiting enemies and the addition of the Force Attack button has made it a lot easier to avoid misclicking or making wrong actions.

Thank you. I am sorry for not including that into the poll.

I actually feel the same way. It's part of why I like the permadeath feature.

My favorite part of ANY video game, is starting fresh. Starting from scratch. Whether it is a RTS game, a Casual game, or especially a Survival or God game- starting from scratch is my favorite part. Less so, when in a RPG or MMORPG- however, my favorite part of THOSE games is character creation. Character creation and starting a fresh new character. So I guess, even in those games, I like it too.

[jbeetle]

My favorite part of ANY video game, is starting fresh. Starting from scratch. Whether it is a RTS game, a Casual game, or especially a Survival or God game- starting from scratch is my favorite part. Less so, when in a RPG or MMORPG- however, my favorite part of THOSE games is character creation. Character creation and starting a fresh new character. So I guess, even in those games, I like it too.

me too, the first time.

[CarterG]

Meat effigies. Use them.

 

I actually don't understand Meat Effigies. It feels cheesy. It feels like it's cheating.

I like permadeath because of things like this. Obviously, once I get so far- I have about 6 of these. My expertise and items allow me to not die with no health- and it doesnt matter if I do.

 

However, after playing 60+ hours and making it extremely easy to get to day 40, dying before a meat effigy but after spending an hour collecting resources, feels like a waste of time. It's when permadeath is simply stupid.

Why? Because the game is simple now that I am so good at it. I can easily start again, and get back to where I was before- or even better.

 

Also, permadeath is more annoying for more experienced players, because the better the player, the more risky things they will do. Why? Because they've done it all before, and it's not that fun sometimes. Risks are shortcuts to save time by getting more resources. Wasting time isn't fun. Getting to where you want, so you can start having fun, is what is fun.

I'm sorry, but about the 1000th time I've collected sticks, grass, stone, and wood- I want to save as much time as possible. I have a 100% success rate collecting these things quickly, primarily because if I truly wanted to, I would never die by playing ultra safe. But there isn't fun in ultra safe. There isn't fun in collecting sticks for the 1000th time, when your IRL game time is running down the clock.

There comes a point between casual time management and expert level Fun, that permadeath is a hindrance- not a benefit. Yes, it is still nice to have that *edge* that permadeath gives.

 

However, once you have played 60+ hours, you are already in the mindset that dying is bad. You already developed the strategies to avoid death. You already, naturally, play smart. You play with all the benefits of the thread of permadeath. The actual result of permadeath gives no benefits, because the psychology behind it works no matter if you have it or not. People are not going to change their playstyles, simply because they don't suffer permadeath anymore. Those playstyles are already ingrained into their mindset. The fun of permadeath is permanent after you become an expert in a permadeath system.

 

So much so, that I actually have scum-saved or used a no-death mod... only to ON MY OWN DECISION delete my character. Give myself permadeath. Because that is what I want. That is how I have fun.

I believe that permadeath needs to be encourage, not forced on a player. Encouragement can include force- but it needs to be limited. Forcing players to try it, is good. It allows players to see the benefits, when they otherwise would not. Forcing it permanently, and being fanatical about it? Patching fixes for scum saving instead of working on other parts of the game? This is silly. Absurd.

Permadeath is only beneficial due to the psychology behind it. The actual deleting of saves is irrelevant. This is a fact, because in a non-permadeath system, players ALWAYS have the ability to CHOOSE permadeath by deleting the saves themselves. The psychology behind the feature is to show players a new experience they would otherwise not get themselves. The positive effects are psychological, dealing with things like differing perspective, alternative style of play, taking the mind on a new adventure, and encouraging willpower. Giving low willpower gamers the ability to *lock* themselves into not being able to cheat, makes more sense than forcing ALL players to play a certain way because those with low willpower fail to understand that others should not be forced simply because they lack the willpower themselves.

Thank you though. I think I just came up with a way to handle permadeath, if it indeed wears off in my own game as well.

[CarterG]

me too, the first time.

 

Well, the first time you ever play is an extraordinary experience that no one can duplicate after it is over.

 

If I were to develop a formula to make the first time, every time,  I would be the richest man in game development.

I remember my first time in Don't Starve. The art was fresh, the world was new, the environment was so harsh. I starved, I actually starved to death. (Starved to the point of being so desperate, I took on spiders or pigs and died.) I murdered my first pig out of necessity. I didn't want to. I felt like a murderer. But I had to. I had to survive. I took its life so I could life. I felt grateful for the meat. I honored my enemy.

But then... then I became a monster. No conscious left. I killed pigs for survival. For easier survival. It was no longer an honorable ritual of gratitude. I did not care anymore for their lives, if I was hungry.

[CarterG]

I love no-reload/ironman/perma-death whatever, but usually only on my terns. Doesn't bother me in this game. I will say that if the game had a bit more structure to it (a well define win scenario for instance or a stronger builder compnent), I'd probably enjoy it more. Dunno really.

I agree.

I don't play it anymore, for the same reason I don't play Minecraft anymore after I built my first house and fully furnished it (just a few days. Very little time compared to the wonderful Don't Starve).

Sandbox games which have no point- get boring. What else is there to do? I have no accomplishments. Everything is either petty or too easy. Sure, I never killed a [insert monster] or gotten [that really rare item] but I have accomplished similar goals already, and they weren't too hard.

When it feels like more a measure of "I can achieve that goal, but it would cost a large timesink." then the goal is nullified. I can judge that the sense of accomplishment and adventurous fun that results from "Getting that one item, that is useless, but I never collected." is not worth the randomized amount of time it would take for me to find the rare resource or monster, and collect it. Sorry, but I don't feel the need to make a small accomplishment for 3 hours of gameplay, when only 5 minutes of that actual gameplay will involve the accomplishment, and 2 hours 55 minutes finding it.

Adventure Mode is fun, but not when you have to start over every single time. Even so, it contradicts part of what I like about the game- building a base and home, to survive better. Adventure Mode rewards gameplay of a nomad, not a settler. That takes away a lot for me.

Don't Starve was wonderful, but after like 120 hours of gameplay, I guess I just wore out the content. It was incredibly worth it. My only complaint is that I feel like I could have played another 120 hours of glorious survival fun, if there were just a few changes to the game. Changes that are different from what Klei had in mind. No complaint though. I was satisfied with the game without even a single update to it. Could have cared less about any updates. The game is solid gold. But like any game, it gets old, not a fault of its own.

[CarterG]

You forgot to add: I hated it at first, (I got too attached to my world) but after a while I started to like the challenge it presented.

My apologies! Added it to the poll. What an extremely important question. I would feel dumb if I were seriously trying to do research. Fortunately, I was thinking more along the lines of "Do other people think what I think? Oh, and this could be good research too!" Should have thought it the other way around.

[jbeetle]

Well, the first time you ever play is an extraordinary experience that no one can duplicate after it is over.

 

If I were to develop a formula to make the first time, every time,  I would be the richest man in game development.

I remember my first time in Don't Starve. The art was fresh, the world was new, the environment was so harsh. I starved, I actually starved to death. (Starved to the point of being so desperate, I took on spiders or pigs and died.) I murdered my first pig out of necessity. I didn't want to. I felt like a murderer. But I had to. I had to survive. I took its life so I could life. I felt grateful for the meat. I honored my enemy.

But then... then I became a monster. No conscious left. I killed pigs for survival. For easier survival. It was no longer an honorable ritual of gratitude. I did not care anymore for their lives, if I was hungry.

I'm the type of person that doesn't even watch the same movie twice. and if it's a story-driven game, the same happens - only once. There have been a few exceptions though...like Chrono Cross.