Character Rebalance Discussion thread

[Orima-Kazooie]

Wilton is NOT the next character. He is a set piece for randomly generated gifts or death threats. Besides, what perks would a dead guy have? Is he immortal because he's already dead?

There are so, so many possibilities Gotheran.

His playstyle could specialize in gravedigging somehow.

He isn't attacked by animals that are only attacking as predators because there's no meat on him. (And something that is recognizably so unlike WX)

He could specialize in playing with boons! Maybe resurrect the other wilton/skeletons lying around everywhere; I've noticed the game no trouble handing like fifty puppets at once if you decide to spawn that way, and the way everything responds to every click makes controlling it difficult but not useless or impossible. Unlikely but an interesting thought.

He could armor himself with meat rather than eating it; or swap health and hunger recovery sometimes.

He could very well come with a built-in single use amulet.

He could require vastly less food as he's nothing but bones.

He could enter random stasis for periods of time to waste time without the hunger and sanity meters draining.

He could be faster without all the meat to weight him down.

He could be better defended as bones are more difficult to break than skin (odd logic there, though, eh?)

here's a fun one: If you stand still birds could land on you as a perch (maybe only crows?)

Or taking the concept a lot further, he could be completely unnoticed by unintelligent creatures when standing still as there're already skeletons littered all over the place.

There're a bunch of things he could do and it's never worth counting something out unless the devs directly state it's out.

- - - Updated - - -

So, no one shall complain.

Oops am I late

- - - Updated - - -

Wickerbottom:

[*]Gets a bonus tech level

[*]Has a higher max sanity

[*]Starts with some papyrus

Negative:

[*]Insomniac - can't sleep at night without reading

Books:

Has a unique crafting tab and create several consumable books:

[*]Birds of the World - call down a flock of birds

[*]Applied Horticulture - boost the grow rate of nearby plants

[*]Bedtime Stories - puts you and anyone else around you to sleep

[*]Conflagration - Lights all flammable objects within a radius

Ach, I seem to be alone on this but I'm actually really disappointed in the specifics of this perk; we can already do all the book effects in other ways (Manure/Guano/Rot, Feather Hat, Torch/Fire Staff, (noone is ever going to want to set everything flammable around them on fire either; the radius you'd need to make it useful would be too wide to not cause unacceptable collateral damage; everything is already naturally set up for the closest thing to that effect which is the easy to start forest fire) Panflute) so while it's an interesting idea it's either fallen flat or we need more specifics; right now it's looking like she can't actually do anything noone else can, she can just do it faster.

Sorry to be a downer. :/

Hoping I missed something somewhere.

[Orima-Kazooie]

When you need a **** tons of reeds, you will no longer think she's op.

Hell it'll be harder using the books than the traditional methods with half of what we know they can do. Hope there're more in store. :/

[Kevin]

Tweaked wickerbottom a bit.

[MycoLogical]

Tweaked wickerbottom a bit.

I like, though the issue of the books just do things others can do, but quicker seems a bit legit

[Kevin]

I like, though the issue of the books just do things others can do, but quicker seems a bit legit

She's doing those things via knowledge. I really don't want to make an *entirely* new set of powers that's just used by one character.

Her primary ability is still the bonus tech level. It's really, really good.

[All Blue]

Oops am I late

Or i was too fast

[MycoLogical]

She's doing those things via knowledge. I really don't want to make an *entirely* new set of powers that's just used by one character.

Her primary ability is still the bonus tech level. It's really, really good.

You don't have to sell me on Wickerbottom Kevin! She's already my main lady!

[Orima-Kazooie]

She's doing those things via knowledge. I really don't want to make an *entirely* new set of powers that's just used by one character.

Her primary ability is still the bonus tech level. It's really, really good.

Iunno I think the other characters' effects are close enough that she should have at least one or two spells that can't be (easily) performed via other means. But the little tweaks there deeefinitely make the book effects more useful/interesting. I so called the lightning strike.

One thing though, I don't understand the sanity loss from books from a flavor angle. From a gameplay angle, it is the only penalty that makes sense, but flavor-wise...

is she binding the taxonomicon and tome of untold egrets? Actually that'd be absolutely hilarious and a great poke at people who think science and magic is some sort of dichotomy, let the librarian bind the forbidden eldritch tome of ...gardening. Learn things man was not meant to know ...about birds.

But I feel like it should be addressed somehow??

[Orima-Kazooie]

Also daaaang, Wicker's updates are going to make things sooooo much more frustrating for me. :/I usually rely on sleep and can never seem to get ahold of an icebox, that is *definitely* radically alter the way I paly the game as her. Or probably in general seeing as she's my main. orz

[oCrapaCreeper]

Looks like all that's left after Wickerbottom is the head honcho of the Don't Starve world. I'd imagine nothing major is going to change with Maxwell, as you said he's already pretty balanced.Then there's still that new guy.

Edited June 19, 2013 by oCrapaCreeper

[brummbar7]

...I really don't want to make an *entirely* new set of powers that's just used by one character..

I'm...not seeing how this would be different from Abigail, or WX's gears, which are basically entirely unique to them. And Wes's balloons I guess, though it's arguable whether they're a "power" or not. I'm kind of disappointed with the selection, but I'm impressed that she gets her own personal crafting tab and several items. I would not have expected that depth of coding and graphical work for one character (not that I really know how much work it is). I'm not clear if this insomiac thing just means she can only *initiate* sleeping items in the evening, can't initiate them at night, or if she can't sleep at all without magical/book help (I'm assuming the bedtime stories book does not work on her, given the wording)? Or if it means she can only initiate sleep during the evening *and* she wakes up at the end of evening, and hence is awake through the night?Applied Horticulture will be useful for the berry farm in the winter. The rest I'm having a hard time imagining using much, considering I've never used a pan flute, and in most cases when fighting spiders I'm not going to want to call lightning and start all the webbing and possibly whole forest on fire. And I DO hope that book is NOT going to work in caves.I agree with some previous sentiments, that the reed cost is going to be make-or-break for these, when compared against the number of darts I could make to simulate the sleep and lightning books. It's true the tech levels are powerful, but I think moreso for beginners than experienced players. And as has been said hundreds of times on these boards, it eventually is useless, compared to *everyone elses'* primary abilities, which are useful the whole game. Edited June 19, 2013 by brummbar7

[jbeetle]

well one difference is that it's a single power in all of those examples, and some of it's just tweaking old powers.

[Orima-Kazooie]

Yeah I'm in agreement that WX, Wolfgang, Wendy, all indeed have entirely new/different powers; Wicker's getting the short end of the stick I feel. I love the ideas but the execution could due to be reworked I think. And more interesting books I think. The summoning birds is great and the lightning strike is fun but making plants grow and putting things to sleep is not too interesting when there are other ways to do it potentially more efficiently. Useful, but not as fun as the other characters' abilities (assuming it's as or more efficient.) One thing I think that could be really cool is one book in the tab that's not bound in papyrus, but pigskin, and has a more supernatural vibe to it. I think one I had in mind when doing my massive pointless brainstorm was the hallucination revealing one but at any rate wouldn't something of that nature be cool?

[brummbar7]

well one difference is that it's a single power in all of those examples, and some of it's just tweaking old powers.

I don't see why it matters if they're old powers or not. I think every character should have a unique power. That's part of making them fun. Everyone has something unique now: Wilson his beard, Willow the lighter, Wendy has Abigail, WX the gear-eating, Wickerbottom book-making, and Wes Balloons. Wolfgang's power is not what I'd call "unique", but at least he gets some graphically unique tweaks, which combined with being 'easy' mode will make him of interest. Max of course is still to come in this round of rebalancing. I don't consider a free research tier "unique", as it's just research, which everyone does. By day 60 or sooner you probably can't tell she ever had it. So really, in terms of having "unique to them" powers, I think everyone has one now, and I think just one.

[ConeyKrab]

Personally, I agree with the statement that Wickerbottom's ability dwindles in utility, at least in comparison to the other characters. I understand that with the potential addition of the "Mad Science Machine" (and Wallace, fingers crossed), she'll become even more useful, but that'll eventually dwindle as well.I'd like for Wickerbottom to have some more books to read, but the current ones are pretty cool. The only things I could think of would be ones that would unlock a random recipe (but that could be ridiculously OP), some sort of cardiovascular studies book that allows her to run a bit faster for a short time, or a cartography guide (maybe the recipe could include a compass?) that reveals part of the map, or more realistically, increases map sight radius temporarily.Can you tell us a little about the frequency of book use? Are they single use items that we have to recraft, or do they have some durability on them? Are they hard to craft with powerful effects, or easy to craft with minor effects?

[brummbar7]

...but making plants grow and putting things to sleep is not too interesting when there are other ways to do it potentially more efficiently...

I think the plant one would be my favorite, for making berries grow faster in the winter, and if the area of effect is large, maybe making crops grow in summer. I hate the micro-management of fertilizing with manure and rot, and only did it in the first cave update when it was the only way to grow crops underground. Being able to do many at once might be worthwhile. And the sleep book, depending on how it works, might be useful against hounds in an emergency. Though since they spawn at a staggered rate, I'm kind of doubting you can hit them all with it unless it goes on for quite some time.I was also expecting more supernatural effects as well. I was expecting typical damage dealing stuff (lightning fits the bill). It would have been fun if one was a "giganticness" book. 30-foot Deerclops meet 30-foot damage-enhanced Wickerbottom! What we get is useful, but much less showy.

[brummbar7]

...I understand that with the potential addition of the "Mad Science Machine"...

This was actually not mentioned at all in the new roadmap post. This made me very, very sad.

[Orima-Kazooie]

well one difference is that it's a single power in all of those examples, and some of it's just tweaking old powers.

WX has two new entirely unprecedented mechanics. Wolfgang has an unprecedented mechanic. Wendy's item power is unprecedented (in that it's an item and renewable,) and Willow's negatives have been heavily modified. Wickerbottom essentially has nothing she alone can do, only things she can do vastly more efficient (in some cases theoretically more efficient).I have an idea of how to solve the problem of Wicker's abilities being available to everyone AND being eventually useless; what if we expand the bonus tech level to allow a fourth tech level beyond the shadow manipulator (thus giving an incentive to actually use it as her as well) that lets her craft some otherwise unrenewable or drop-only resources? Spider Eggs, Spiderhats, Spider Glands, Honeycombs, Berry Bushes, Saplings, Grass Stalks, Pigskin, Fleshy Bulb, Bunny Puffs etc.? Maybe some sort of meat substitute or even the ability to craft live mosquitoes directly into your inventory with a stinger and a bit of rot. It easily fits both sciencey themes for the character as genetic engineering research, and shadowy themes as a step up from the manipulator.And it'd certainly never stop being useful.

[Orima-Kazooie]

Personally, I agree with the statement that Wickerbottom's ability dwindles in utility, at least in comparison to the other characters. I understand that with the potential addition of the "Mad Science Machine" (and Wallace, fingers crossed), she'll become even more useful, but that'll eventually dwindle as well.I'd like for Wickerbottom to have some more books to read, but the current ones are pretty cool. The only things I could think of would be ones that would unlock a random recipe (but that could be ridiculously OP), some sort of cardiovascular studies book that allows her to run a bit faster for a short time, or a cartography guide (maybe the recipe could include a compass?) that reveals part of the map, or more realistically, increases map sight radius temporarily.Can you tell us a little about the frequency of book use? Are they single use items that we have to recraft, or do they have some durability on them? Are they hard to craft with powerful effects, or easy to craft with minor effects?

You forgot a necronomicon or other book of forbidden knowledge. And possibly a psychological study as a more efficient one-man band if we continue that trend, or if not, let's have the ability to use it to recruit the other animal as well, I can imagine Wickerbottom being quick-tongues and quick-witted enough to ally MacTusk if she knew how it thought, and /easily/ outsmarting merms.

[Orima-Kazooie]

This was actually not mentioned at all in the new roadmap post. This made me very, very sad.

Wow you're right that didn't register for me at all. Maybe it could be repurposed as Wickerbottom's REAL exclusive ability, to get a tech level four out of the shadow manip.

[Hairplane]

WX has two new entirely unprecedented mechanics. Wolfgang has an unprecedented mechanic. Wendy's item power is unprecedented (in that it's an item and renewable,) and Willow's negatives have been heavily modified. Wickerbottom essentially has nothing she alone can do, only things she can do vastly more efficient (in some cases theoretically more efficient).I have an idea of how to solve the problem of Wicker's abilities being available to everyone AND being eventually useless; what if we expand the bonus tech level to allow a fourth tech level beyond the shadow manipulator (thus giving an incentive to actually use it as her as well) that lets her craft some otherwise unrenewable or drop-only resources? Spider Eggs, Spiderhats, Spider Glands, Honeycombs, Berry Bushes, Saplings, Grass Stalks, Pigskin, Fleshy Bulb, Bunny Puffs etc.? Maybe some sort of meat substitute or even the ability to craft live mosquitoes directly into your inventory with a stinger and a bit of rot. It easily fits both sciencey themes for the character as genetic engineering research, and shadowy themes as a step up from the manipulator.And it'd certainly never stop being useful.

All of that is pretty sound. Were that to ever be implemented, the books tab would have to be scrapped, I think. That's just too many things. It'd have to be one or the other, not both. But I also agree with everything Kevin has said about Wicker, and the changes he has currently are based around her character more-so than gameplay. But I do think that's a wonderful idea, and should it not be used with Wicker, it could totally be implemented with a brand new character.

[MycoLogical]

She does need at least two or three books that make her a bit more unique.Maybe these?;Friends Through The Lineage: This book allows her to befriend any animal (besides Spider Queen, Tree Guard and Deerclops) that can assist her in attacks.Fixing On The Fly: This book allows all currently equipped armor (grass, log, marble, slurtle) and helmet (pigskin) and weapon (spear) to get an additional 20% boost

[Hairplane]

She does need at least two or three books that make her a bit more unique.Maybe these?;Friends Through The Lineage: This book allows her to befriend any animal (besides Spider Queen, Tree Guard and Deerclops) that can assist her in attacks.Fixing On The Fly: This book allows all currently equipped armor (grass, log, marble, slurtle) and helmet (pigskin) and weapon (spear) to get an additional 20% boost

I agree, and these are great ideas. =) I just thought of a book that when read does a random effect, something in the vain of the Wabbajack in Elder Scrolls lore, that can be positive or negative. The equipment boost makes me think a blacksmith character would be great to have. His ability could allow him to improve durability for any battle oriented equipment as well as tools by an additional 25%-50%, and/or possibly repair them outright. Something of that nature. Edited June 19, 2013 by Hairplane
Repair idea added

[Orima-Kazooie]

She does need at least two or three books that make her a bit more unique.Maybe these?;Friends Through The Lineage: This book allows her to befriend any animal (besides Spider Queen, Tree Guard and Deerclops) that can assist her in attacks.Fixing On The Fly: This book allows all currently equipped armor (grass, log, marble, slurtle) and helmet (pigskin) and weapon (spear) to get an additional 20% boost

No shelmet?

[MycoLogical]

No shelmet?

Sure