Patience's Running Out.

[Antynomity]

7 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Right. In your opinion, are the changes that KLEI is making to DST being good or bad for the company? Should Klei reverse everything because of a few nostalgic players? Do you believe you have a superior ability to understand the direction of DST than the developer group?

The company's standing is important, but it wasn't bad with the old direction, or at least the older direction, DST was always different from DS direction-wise, but it wasn't completely different.

It's not just a matter of if the company is doing well, if you think that original supporters deserve to get shafted just because it's the better financial decision, then I don't know what to say, that's pretty immoral if you're asking me.

And realistically, they probably did go this way to cater to the casual population of gamers, but there is a way to not completely alienate the people who loved the old direction, while making it more attractive for casuals.

10 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I'm not saying that your opinion about what's happening isn't important to the debate on the forum. But if Klei has to make a choice in which direction to go, the company will go to the side that is working for it.

You're saying this as if the old direction was a complete failure, and a flop.

It wasn't.

[Cruvimaster]

1 minute ago, Antynomity said:

You're saying this as if the old direction was a complete failure, and a flop.
 

I'm not saying that. It worked well for that time. In 10 years, a lot of things change in the gaming market.

Tell me why Klei didn't stop working on the reworks process, but started a new cycle of skill trees (?)

If the reworks had gone wrong, would we have skill trees?

[BezKa]

4 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

If the reworks had gone wrong, would we have skill trees?

I think so? Isn't that exactly what happened?

[Cruvimaster]

5 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I think so? Isn't that exactly what happened?

Who played Woodie or Maxwell before the rework? Be sincere in your answer.

And the new Wormwood is a bad job? Are Willow and Wigfrid (Elding Spear) players unhappy?

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

Who played Woodie or Maxwell before the rework? Be sincere in your answer.

I wasn't playing yet when Woodie got his rework, but I played Maxwell all the time. I don't know who else played him, I'm not stalking data sheets or something. All I remember is people begging for a second rework for Woodie ever since I joined the forums.

[Antynomity]

12 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I'm not saying that. It worked well for that time. In 10 years, a lot of things change in the gaming market.

Tell me why Klei didn't stop working on the reworks process, but started a new cycle of skill trees (?)

If the reworks had gone wrong, would we have skill trees?

That's exactly what happened, reworks turned from small additions and QoL to full on powercrept remakes of the character, the later the rework came, the more broken it was. Look at Maxwell, he's an abomination both with how many different things he has going for him but also with how stupidly broken his kit is, while Winona post-rework really wasn't that special and was only used as a swap character.

[Cruvimaster]

7 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

That's exactly what happened, reworks turned from small additions and QoL to full on powercrept remakes of the character, the later the rework came, the more broken it was. Look at Maxwell, he's an abomination both with how many different things he has going for him but also with how stupidly broken his kit is, while Winona post-rework really wasn't that special and was only used as a swap character.

That's exactly what I've been trying to explain to you from the beginning: Klei is heading in a direction that is being productive for her and the majority of her players. I don't even see any option to return to what you liked about the old DST. It's a path of no return for me.

[ChintzyGnat]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m absolutely getting sick and tired of trying to fight this battle man.. you are aware that “niche” indie game was ever going to actually appeal to “niche” group of gamers right? So yeah I’d say it’s actually a BAD thing that Klei listens to majority vote over the smaller Minority???

Here let me explain- Wonkey Curse: This could be made far far more interesting IF the Curse persisted on your character even through dying (your cursed duh!) but… to make this not just be something you can EASILY get rid of by trading a bunch of Banana to Funny Moon Queen all at Once, How about we make her like trying to Over-fed a Pudgy Beefalo or give pig king monster meat? (Aka having an Animation to nod their head unwilling to accept it)

This means that your banana trades with her are on cooldown (she could want to savor the flavor so she spends an extremely long time chewing on one Banana whatever Idc..)

Point is- If you gain enough cursed trinkets they won’t be as easy to get rid of as dying in an obscure corner of the map somewhere.

Now then- let me throughly express that this mechanic does not harm or damage your precious 3,000,000 day mega base in any way shape or form- 

YOU Just disagree with it because you find it to be an annoying and uninteresting gameplay mechanic.

I think I prove my point, I’m done here.

Absolute most absurd argument I've ever heard. People don't like the curse not because it's hard or difficult but because it's annoying! I think EVERY idea for difficulty changes you have spouted is not hard or difficult but extremly tedious or annoying to the average player.

Also people finding mechanics this annoying turns them off from interacting with the content. I personally think the monkeys are awesome mechanically, except for that stupid curse because it is a huge inconvenience... NOT HARD. 

Adding what you have suggested just makes this situation 10x worse and even more tedious, please think on an idea like this a little more. 

Also stop attacking a group of players without even experiencing what they do. If you have megabased you would understand the annoyance and hindrance of these obstacles you keep suggesting to add...

[abrocator]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m absolutely getting sick and tired of trying to fight this battle man.. you are aware that “niche” indie game was ever going to actually appeal to “niche” group of gamers right? So yeah I’d say it’s actually a BAD thing that Klei listens to majority vote over the smaller Minority???

Just don’t equate your tiny niche in this niche with the niche. You represent like four people. You’re the only regular who says “I don’t wanna fight Bee Queen” and “game too easy; needs more Wonkey”.

The people who look for a challenge (this is not me btw) seem to be thriving with all the weird-ass quests and bosses and unreasonably late-game perks (kill CC to finally get a reasonable chest setup… oh sure). If you want a regular challenge you can start a roguelike run (if you set the death timer to Instant surely, but even without that) by (1) collecting some marble pieces from across the map (2) kill the Shadow Pieces on a specific night that happens every twenty days (3) kill AG (4) get some fossil pieces (5) kill the ultimate inventory management boss in the game. Eh but that is a bit tame for this game now, very 2018. Because now you can concurrently with the FW run: (1) go find a star caller in the ruins (2) sacrifice it to a full moon idol on a full moon that happens every twenty days while protecting it against hounds and werepigs (3) deconstruct the offering you get back for some gem and bring it to a random abandonded Protoss Base (see I can mention other games, although much fewer) somewhere in the caves (4) triangulate the position of some moon statue thingies (5) subsidize the entire existence of a crab hermit that lives somewhere out in the Ocean (6) get a reward from her (7) use it to kill her husband for some reason (8) activate some storm (??) (9) help cartoon Einstein do something Satanic (probably) (10) finally kill the champion of the moon (????).

How is that casual?

It’s all optional. And optional, challenging things are things that people who want a challenge naturally sign up for.

As for the rest of us. Eh. The game is already ridiculous for new players. Trying to get someone to sustain interest in this arcane game for long enough is a quest line in itself.

I mean: “Together!” they say. “It’s a multiplayer game!” Yeah so easy to onboard new players into this game. There’s nothing casual about it when it comes to onboarding new players. It is only casual for seasoned survivors who have a lot of hours in the game. Just sitting down with someone and getting through a season can be a chore for the experienced as well as the new player.

And if you manage to convince other experienced players (but not advanced—not boss rushers) to start a world they all get bored after having killed five raid bosses and having made a nice base.

PS: My impassioned tone is just my writing style.
 

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Point is- If you gain enough cursed trinkets they won’t be as easy to get rid of as dying in an obscure corner of the map somewhere.

Abusing game mechanics was always one of the pleasures of both DS and DST. These games are about game knowledge: that was always the case. And if you aren’t pissing off at least a small part of the forum with some parts of your tactics and playing (“cheesing”), well what are you even doing?

[Mike23Ua]

25 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I'm not saying that. It worked well for that time. In 10 years, a lot of things change in the gaming market.

Tell me why Klei didn't stop working on the reworks process, but started a new cycle of skill trees (?)

If the reworks had gone wrong, would we have skill trees?

The absolutely hilarious thing about that is that when Klei originally released Dont starve it actually was considered this uncompromising game that went against much of what existed back then, it was a game with a bold direction of having permanent character deaths and your game worlds and progress getting deleted with your failed attempts Don’t Starve was classed as a RogueLite (no joke look it up) in a world where this genre of gaming was very scarce and unheard of at the time.

NOW (particularly 2023 & 2024) the world has seen a massive spike in the popularity in this perma-death, RogueLite gaming Genre it’s as popular as the genre has EVER been, and yet Klei wants to further and further detach themselves from it.

It is a bit sad to watch a company that by all rights should’ve been Pioneers in this phase, suddenly choose to shift so heavily away from it to appeal to casuals.

Yeah yeah yeah companies want $$$$$ casuals sell $$$$$ but the point is that Klei were PIONEERS they went with ideas Outside of Industry Standards that very few people would’ve ever agreed with, and now… now they’re just trying to shoehorn DST into whatever category that ticks all the right boxes with the majority of all gamers.

[Cruvimaster]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The absolutely hilarious thing about that is that when Klei originally released Dont starve it actually was considered this uncompromising game that went against much of what existed back then, it was a game with a bold direction of having permanent character deaths and your game worlds and progress getting deleted with your failed attempts Don’t Starve was classed as a RogueLite (no joke look it up) in a world where this genre of gaming was very scarce and unheard of at the time.

NOW (particularly 2023 & 2024) the world has seen a massive spike in the popularity in this perma-death, RogueLite gaming Genre it’s as popular as the genre has EVER been, and yet Klei wants to further and further detach themselves from it.

It is a bit sad to watch a company that by all rights should’ve been Pioneers in this phase, suddenly choose to shift so heavily away from it to appeal to casuals.

Yeah yeah yeah companies want $$$$$ casuals sell $$$$$ but the point is that Klei were PIONEERS they went with ideas Outside of Industry Standards that very few people would’ve ever agreed with, and now… now they’re just trying to shoehorn DST into whatever category that ticks all the right boxes with the majority of all gamers.

I wonder if DST should already be discontinued and release a DS 3.

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

That's exactly what I've been trying to explain to you from the beginning: Klei is heading in a direction that is being productive for her and the majority of her players. I don't even see any option to return to what you liked about the old DST. It's a path of no return for me.

Tell me something, how would you have felt to have purchased Rainbow Six Siege at its full newly released price at 80$ exclusively to play its co-op terror hunt missions with a group of friends, and you even convinced these friends to buy the game to play this mode with you & then one day you wake up and one game update later the mode that you even bought the game & then convinced your friends to all buy the game for- was suddenly removed from the game because the most popular mode was 5v5 PvP and not the Coop Horde?

That is so ridiculously stupid it’s like removing the signature “Zombies” mode from the Call of Duty games.

But yet in this pathetic excuse of a gaming generation- Game development companies have the rights to change, modify, and even out right remove the parts of the game you may or may not have loved.

I shutter to think of how many level reworks and map tweaks a game like Super Mario Bros 3 would get in THIS Generation of Whining entitled snot nosed little brats who somehow have an influence over changes like these nowadays.

It legit makes me sick to my stomach to even consider myself as being a gamer anymore..

And I sincerely mean no disrespect I do heavily apologize if it seems this way.., I’m just trying to express that maybe “Change because it’s the more popular option” is not ALWAYS a good thing?

[Reiko24]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

The absolutely hilarious thing about that is that when Klei originally released Dont starve it actually was considered this uncompromising game that went against much of what existed back then, it was a game with a bold direction of having permanent character deaths and your game worlds and progress getting deleted with your failed attempts Don’t Starve was classed as a RogueLite (no joke look it up) in a world where this genre of gaming was very scarce and unheard of at the time.

NOW (particularly 2023 & 2024) the world has seen a massive spike in the popularity in this perma-death, RogueLite gaming Genre it’s as popular as the genre has EVER been, and yet Klei wants to further and further detach themselves from it.

It is a bit sad to watch a company that by all rights should’ve been Pioneers in this phase, suddenly choose to shift so heavily away from it to appeal to casuals.

Yeah yeah yeah companies want $$$$$ casuals sell $$$$$ but the point is that Klei were PIONEERS they went with ideas Outside of Industry Standards that very few people would’ve ever agreed with, and now… now they’re just trying to shoehorn DST into whatever category that ticks all the right boxes with the majority of all gamers.

If Don't Starve's gimmick was so successful, why wasn't it as successful? Numbers don't lie, and they tell me that your arguments are not true.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

now they’re just trying to shoehorn DST into whatever category that ticks all the right boxes with the majority of all gamers.

They are trying to make "majority of gamers", so "majority of people" happy and satisfied with the game? No way! 

 

You know... I was playing with a semi-beginner person recently. You know how often they die? You know how much of a chore it is to keep them and yourself alive at the same time when they are only an obstacle? The game IS HARD FOR NORMAL PLAYERS. The game is NOT HARD for experienced players. Like most things in life, shocker.

 

I mean, they did add some difficult things lately. Armored Bearger is difficult. Lunar Hail IS uncompromising and deals tons of damage if you are not prepared, it's also hard to dodge. Acid Rain is just worse rain, which again, is uncompromising. Brightshades are literal pests that invade your base and they are not pushovers by any means. I welcome these changes, because I love challenge and stuff that makes the game harder, but LET'S NOT PRETEND THEY WERE NOT ADDED.

But well, how would you know. Why do you attack them when you don't even bother checking out the game's content by defeating bosses that it requires you to beat? You should unlock the content, play it, and then voice your opinions. Then you can be disappointed if they are not heard.

[lowercase skye]

42 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I shutter to think of how many level reworks and map tweaks a game like Super Mario Bros 3 would get in THIS Generation of Whining entitled snot nosed little brats who somehow have an influence over changes like these nowadays.

Super Mario Bros. Wonder received a total of 1 bugfix update.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think your take is so unreasonable. There definitely should be more considerations to balancing old content with the perspective of having all the myriad of new additions. Regardless, people should be allowed to express their opinions even if they aren't precisely aligned with whatever sales analytics might say. 

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m absolutely getting sick and tired of trying to fight this battle man.. you are aware that “niche” indie game was ever going to actually appeal to “niche” group of gamers right? So yeah I’d say it’s actually a BAD thing that Klei listens to majority vote over the smaller Minority???

Here let me explain- Wonkey Curse: This could be made far far more interesting IF the Curse persisted on your character even through dying (your cursed duh!) but… to make this not just be something you can EASILY get rid of by trading a bunch of Banana to Funny Moon Queen all at Once, How about we make her like trying to Over-fed a Pudgy Beefalo or give pig king monster meat? (Aka having an Animation to nod their head unwilling to accept it)

This means that your banana trades with her are on cooldown (she could want to savor the flavor so she spends an extremely long time chewing on one Banana whatever Idc..)

Point is- If you gain enough cursed trinkets they won’t be as easy to get rid of as dying in an obscure corner of the map somewhere.

Now then- let me throughly express that this mechanic does not harm or damage your precious 3,000,000 day mega base in any way shape or form- 

YOU Just disagree with it because you find it to be an annoying and uninteresting gameplay mechanic.

I think I prove my point, I’m done here.

What is sick is your obsession with megabasers

[Valase]

Dear (I forgot the name of the dude that made this post), if you ever feel like quitting DST, or feel burned out from the updates or something similar, quit the forums too. Not because I don't want to see your entitled opinion, but because you are in a cycle of self feeding hatred, you never will be able to "cool down" from the game because you still are consuming and interacting with it, even without playing it. So don't wait for the next update to decide to quit, quit now and then one day you will be back. Or not, do whatever makes you happy, for once.

25 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

I don't think your take is so unreasonable. There definitely should be more considerations to balancing old content with the perspective of having all the myriad of new additions. Regardless, people should be allowed to express their opinions even if they aren't precisely aligned with whatever sales analytics might say. 

I think that what makes it look unreasonable is the "Patience's Running Out." in the title, as if at some time Klei made any compromise(OMG Uncompromising reference!!!1!) to appeal to this guy.

[JoeW]

Please calm down the tone of this conversation. 

I wrote a big response, but it just comes off a little too defensive, so I will just leave it at this. This is generally directed to the entire thread and not to any one individual, other than at the end. =)

What we're doing and why we're doing it is always communicated to players in our roadmaps and throughout the year. If you believe it for other reasons, nothing we can really say or do is going to change that. But we do try to be as transparent as we can. 

Generally, we're not trying to appeal to anybody other than who we think specifically will enjoy our game. We actively avoid trying to appeal to those players much as we can. We're not trying to sell Invisible Inc to Don't Starve players and we're not trying to sell Don't Starve Together to Valorant players. Why would we? We want our players to enjoy our game MORE than we want people to buy our game. (yeah, it's weird. But look at our history, if you don't believe me). 

That being said - you're not the only one playing our game. Some people like things you don't like. That doesn't mean we're ignoring you or don't care. It means we have a finite number of developers and a finite amount of time.

Frankly speaking @Antynomity we're not trying to keep a player around for years on end. If you feel like you need a break, you should take a break. 

I'm sorry that this arc isn't interesting to you. We've been effectively working on the same initiative spread across two roadmaps for almost 2 years now, I can see the frustration if you're just not into it. But I am not going to ask you to stick around until we're doing something you would like more. It will happen I'm sure, but right now we're focused on the 2024 roadmap. But I can tell you myself and all the same people are working on the game, and hopefully we'll do something more interesting for you later. There is no big change in direction or motivation. We're not going anywhere any time soon. 

And for everybody -- Calm down a bit - please. You can like something somebody else doesn't. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't make you right and you can share your opinions without trying to tear somebody else down. 
 

[Octohunter777]

This thread is very intense. 

I just wanted to say that I have been enjoying the recent updates, but if someone doesn't, that's fine. 

Different people have different tastes. 

[Theukon-dos]

45 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

If Don't Starve's gimmick was so successful, why wasn't it as successful? Numbers don't lie, and they tell me that your arguments are not true.

They are trying to make "majority of gamers", so "majority of people" happy and satisfied with the game? No way! 

 

You know... I was playing with a semi-beginner person recently. You know how often they die? You know how much of a chore it is to keep them and yourself alive at the same time when they are only an obstacle? The game IS HARD FOR NORMAL PLAYERS. The game is NOT HARD for experienced players. Like most things in life, shocker.

 

I mean, they did add some difficult things lately. Armored Bearger is difficult. Lunar Hail IS uncompromising and deals tons of damage if you are not prepared, it's also hard to dodge. Acid Rain is just worse rain, which again, is uncompromising. Brightshades are literal pests that invade your base and they are not pushovers by any means. I welcome these changes, because I love challenge and stuff that makes the game harder, but LET'S NOT PRETEND THEY WERE NOT ADDED.

But well, how would you know. Why do you attack them when you don't even bother checking out the game's content by defeating bosses that it requires you to beat? You should unlock the content, play it, and then voice your opinions. Then you can be disappointed if they are not heard.

You do realize that 16k concurrent players is still really, really good. Right? Sure, it's no run-away smash hit that other games became, like Valheim or Palworld. But that's still a LOT of people buying and playing your game. And nearly three thousand people still playing it a decade after release despite it having a much more actively supported sequel? There are developers who'd sell their first born for those kinds of numbers. 

If Don't Starve wasn't successful, then it wouldn't have gotten 3 expansion packs and a Multi-player sequel/spin off.

 

2 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Please calm down the tone of this conversation. 

I wrote a big response, but it just comes off a little too defensive, so I will just leave it at this. This is generally directed to the entire thread and not to any one individual, other than at the end. =)

What we're doing and why we're doing it is always communicated to players in our roadmaps and throughout the year. If you believe it for other reasons, nothing we can really say or do is going to change that. But we do try to be as transparent as we can. 

Generally, we're not trying to appeal to anybody other than who we think specifically will enjoy our game. We actively avoid trying to appeal to people outside of who we think would enjoy the game much as we can. We're not trying to sell Invisible Inc to Don't Starve players and we're not trying to sell Don't Starve Together to Valorant players. Why would we? We want our players to enjoy our game MORE than we want people to buy our game. (yeah, it's weird. But look at our history, if you don't believe me). 

That being said - you're not the only one playing our game. Some people like things you don't like. That doesn't mean we're ignoring you or don't care. It means we have a finite number of developers and a finite amount of time.

Frankly speaking @Antynomity we're not trying to keep players around for years on end. If you feel like you need a break, you should take a break. 

I'm sorry that this arc isn't interesting to you. We've been effectively working on the same initiative spread across two roadmaps for almost 2 years now, I can see the frustration if you're just not into it. But I am not going to ask you to stick around until we're doing something you would like more. It will happen I'm sure, but right now we're focused on the 2024 roadmap. But I can tell you myself and all the same people are working on the game, and hopefully we'll do something more interesting for you later. There is no big change in direction or motivation. We're not going anywhere any time soon. 

And for everybody -- Calm down a bit - please. You can like something somebody else doesn't. It doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't make you right and you can share your opinions without trying to tear somebody else down. 
 

I appreciate the response Joe. Really, it's always good to get some communication from the team. Though I must admit, I feel you're underselling just how much the game and it's direction have changed sense it first released.

 

I got into Don't Starve in 2017. I forget exactly when, but it was before A New Regin started and between Shipwrecked releasing and the Seas the Day update. And back then, I was sold Don't Starve as a game that wouldn't pull it's punches and that was inheritly hostile towards new players.  And though it stayed that way for a while, recent updates have definitly had a lot of focus on pulling the punches and making the onboarding experience easier for new players.

 

Obviously games don't stay hard forever. I have nearly 2000 hours between DS and DST. But there has been an obvious shift in who the game has been getting sold to. And  while this has been an obviously great financial decision, I do wish that it didn't involve making the game easier on all levels of play.

[YouKnowWho]

19 minutes ago, Valase said:

I think that what makes it look unreasonable is the "Patience's Running Out." in the title, as if at some time Klei made any compromise(OMG Uncompromising reference!!!1!) to appeal to this guy.

Yeah, fair enough. I just feel those trying to use game analytics as an all-encompassing rejection to balance discussions are being too reductive, so I wanted to speak against that.

[Catteflyterpill]

Patience's doesn't really roll of the tongues, does it? I know it's a contraction of 'patience' and 'is' but it reads a little weird. Especially when Patience works as a name, so it almost seems possessive like the running out that belongs to Patience. I'm not sure if patience's is grammatically correct, but I think I'd avoid on the basis of it not flowing well.

[Well-met]

it's hard to discuss your points if you don't explain them.

[Cruvimaster]

28 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

Yeah, fair enough. I just feel those trying to use game analytics as an all-encompassing rejection to balance discussions are being too reductive, so I wanted to speak against that.

The analysis on Steam.DB are facts. These are not mere opinions. Klei is implementing new content and the player base is increasing. There's no way to dispute that.

Removing the numbers leaves only personal opinions saying that Klei's work is bad or good.

People being unhappy with changes is something extremely natural. Go to the Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Assassin's Creed (and many others) communities and you will see a lot of people dissatisfied with the changes that are made. But when they make the same type of game in a sequel they also complain that companies don't have more creativity.

It's not possible to please everyone all the time.

[BezKa]

55 minutes ago, JoeW said:

we're not trying to keep players around for years on end.

This will look really bad once people start taking it out of context.