The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss itself is the key to the problem.

[zhangsheng]

Why is everyone on the forum now paying attention to Lureplant? Isn't it because there were some design issues with Misery Toadstol and Incident Fuelweaver to some extent.

Misery Toadstol has too much health, poor tree planting mechanism, and excessive resource consumption. The Ancient Fuelweaver has low health, excellent and complex mechanisms, and needs to be repeatedly defeated to meet the requirements of multiplayer equipment. Repeated battles can be quite boring.

These bosses all have their own problems, so since the bug in Lureplant has been resolved, the focus should be on the design issues of the bosses. May I ask when Klei will resolve this?

Edited March 24 by zhangsheng

[Habakkuk]

"I am much stronger than you can imagine." - Lureplant 

Edited March 24 by Habakkuk

[landromat]

I think main problem is not the bosses but poor ui that makes you spend too much time managing items in your inventory.

Some type of item wheel like from this mod could help a lot. It could even stop time when opened when playing solo

Edited March 24 by landromat

[Gi-Go]

54 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

Why is everyone on the forum now paying attention to Lureplant? Isn't it because there were some design issues with Misery Toadstol and Incident Fuelweaver to some extent.

Game gets worse with every positive bug fixed that's just how it is. It's not about lureplants it's about klei wanting to fix things for no reason. 

[kroban]

As far as I know the Lureplant cheese has been fixed for rift bosses, not for Misery and FW. Yet. Its on Klei list (said by themselves), but it hasnt been "fixed" yet.

That said, I think Misery just need some small changes to become a much better fight. Most people easily understand his mechanics and barely get damage, his annoying side comes from "too many mushtrees", too many poison areas, and his BS earthquake jump. 

 Personally, I dont think his HP is that much an issue. Like sure, he has A LOT. But he's a boss you only need to kill once to dupe lamps with napsacks, for what is essentially almost infinite light. He is probably the only boss that you don't benefit from farming.

- For mushtrees, Klei should either make Toadstool spawn less amount OR make it so mushtrees can be easily chopped by anone in just a couple hits, instantaneous if we talking about the moon axe.

- Spore clouds should last a lot less time. The fact that one cloud stays for an entire minute can really complicate the fight, specially if Toad later spawns mushtrees inside a cloud, or if you are doing the "burning with fire staff" mechanic.

- The earthquake jump ends up filling the floor with trash, which really complicates the task of chopping down mushtrees on his mid phase. Bossfight areas should be clean, some people are used to spacebar to chop trees for example, and I can't imagine how much of a pain this fight is for people that use controller. To be fair, this issue is technically kind of solved if you put a stone pillar now. Still, Klei should change it as a QoL for the fight. He either doesn't causes earthquakes at all, OR he still does but those earthquakes won't leave any trash in the area. Kind of like what happens with hail right now.

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by kroban

[Captain_Rage]

The boss already becomes a lot easier after defeating it once since the Shadow Thurible will prevent entrapment in the consecutive fights. Now there is also the option to defeat the Celestial Champion first to use Brightshade equipment which is ideal for fighting the Ancient Fuelweaver. If you are hardcore you can fight it using non-rift gear and even without Weather Pains. There are different options to tackle it but in the end it is still a final boss fight. Watching it succumb while stuck without player interaction speaks for itself as a cheap and unintended method.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Lureplant was always a good bandaid solution for these issues imo. We know that the bosses are scuffed and old and in some form rushed, but they also at THAT time were considered and overhyped for the items they dropped. Right now it's not the case anymore and most of the old ones are nothing more than a drag.

Fuelweaver is a drag to defeat most of the time, but I realized how fast the fight will go with just a stack of gunpowder. I know, this is also a bit of a pain to make but it's fast enough if you got vast amounts of resources and it's really better than nothing.

Fuelweaver is a good boss, but too much health for nothing we wanna do. Powder does fix the solution and fast crafted, but unsure if that many people would be appealed to the idea of using it without Klei poking community to try using it more.

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, kroban said:

As far as I know the Lureplant cheese has been fixed for rift bosses, not for Misery and FW. Yet. Its on Klei list, said by themselves, but it hasnt been "fixed" yet.

That said, I think Misery just need some small changes to become a much better fight. Most people easily understand his mechanics and barely get damage, his annoying side comes from "too many mushtrees", too many poison areas, and his BS earthquake jump. 

 Personally, I dont think his HP is that much an issue. Like sure, he has A LOT. But he's a boss you only need to kill once to dupe lamps with napsacks, for what is essentially almost infinite light. He is probably the only boss that isn't farmable.

- For mushtrees, Klei should either make him spawn less amount OR make it so mushtrees can be easily chopped by anone in just a couple hits, instantaneous when it comes to glass axe.

- Spore clouds should last a lot less time. The fact that one area stays for an entire minute can really complicate the fight, specially if Toad later spawns mushtrees inside one.

- The earthquake jump ends up filling the floor with trash, which really complicates the task of chopping down mushtrees on his mid phase. To be fair this is technically kind of solved if you put a stone pillar now, but it should be base for this fight. Make it so either he doesn't causes earthquakes at all, OR he still does but those earthquakes won't leave any trash in the area.

 

 

 

I’ve never fought toadstool or misery toadstool so take what I say with a pinch of salt..

Would you find it “unreasonable” that Toadstools trees became significantly faster & easier to chop down if exposed to Acid Rain? (Like the new Acidic effect on Mushtrees) 

[Faintly Macabre]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Would you find it “unreasonable” that Toadstools trees became significantly faster & easier to chop down if exposed to Acid Rain?

Unironically a good idea.

8 hours ago, kroban said:

Personally, I dont think his HP is that much an issue. Like sure, he has A LOT. But he's a boss you only need to kill once to dupe lamps with napsacks, for what is essentially almost infinite light.

Does it not feel weird at all to type these sentences within days of insisting lureplant cheese is bad for the game...?

Edited March 24 by Faintly Macabre

[Cruvimaster]

The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss isn't the problem either. The player's laziness in learning the boss's mechanics is the key to the problem.

[_zwb]

31 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The player's laziness in learning the boss's mechanics is the key to the problem.

If I'm going to kill a boss hundreds of times i will be "lazy" and use the cheese, it's just too boring after killing it so many times

[Arcwell]

28 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss isn't the problem either. The player's laziness in learning the boss's mechanics is the key to the problem.

This is implying everyone who used lureplants on FW didn't know how to fight the boss normally, which is just not the case. I know how to defeat FW without cheese and have done it several times. I simply do not enjoy the fight, which is why I go out of my way to cheese it (if not through lureplants, then through other methods).

At the same time, I know plenty of people love the FW fight and would hate to see it changed. It's for that reason that I'm hesitant to ask for changes to FW. Cheese is, in my opinion, a compromise between the two viewpoints, not the problem itself as you put it. It lets people who dislike the fight get around it while keeping the experience the same for those who like to do the fight manually.

[Popian]

8 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Powder does fix the solution and fast crafted, but unsure if that many people would be appealed to the idea of using it without Klei poking community to try using it more.

This was their plan all along.

1. Introduce Nitre surplus with Acid Rain
2. Remove the cheaper/accessible competition that would be preferred ~100% of the time to increase demand for Gunpowder
3. Bats eat Nitre?

[Nikki Darks]

12 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Game gets worse with every positive bug fixed that's just how it is. It's not about lureplants it's about klei wanting to fix things for no reason. 

Ah yes. Bug fixing. Fixing game bugs. For no reason.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Ah yes. Bug fixing. Fixing game bugs. For no reason

bugs usually get fixed because they're negatively affecting players and can't be avoided, otherwise they can be kept or, in some cases, turned into features

[Mike23Ua]

It’s kinda sad how players agree to a agreement before they can play a game that clearly states the developers have the rights to change or modify it, and yet people get upset when Klei actual change or modify it.

It’s even more sad that when they attempt to fix what they consider bugs & make the game play better in the ways that they intend for it to, that players get upset about that.

It’s literally mind blowing to me really. I try to find logic in everything, but this just seems illogical.

Players are really getting “mad” at Klei for fixing their own game? Why??

[Faintly Macabre]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s kinda sad how players agree to a agreement before they can play a game that clearly states the developers have the rights to change or modify it, and yet people get upset when Klei actual change or modify it.

This feels a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

Edited March 25 by Faintly Macabre
Trying to be a good boy.

[Wenhelxing]

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Players are really getting “mad” at Klei for fixing their own game? Why??

Games get played if the player base likes what the developers are doing. The developers are catering to the player's needs, not squashing them. Not to flex, but I've spent over 300 USD in this single game. From an economic standpoint, I OWN the game and am expecting to have fun playing it since I spent so much supporting the developers. Does that mean that I can't even voice my concerns regarding something that negatively affects me? 

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Wenhelxing said:

Games get played if the player base likes what the developers are doing. The developers are catering to the player's needs, not squashing them. Not to flex, but I've spent over 300 USD in this single game. From an economic standpoint, I OWN the game and am expecting to have fun playing it since I spent so much supporting the developers. Does that mean that I can't even voice my concerns regarding something that negatively affects me? 

If what you’re doing isn’t intended by the developers and is negatively effecting the experience they intend for you to play, then yeah uhm probably..?

Let me use a Mario game as an example.. no wait, here just watch this-

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/06/the-secret-glitch-players-used-to-break-mario-kart-64s-chocolate-mountain/

Would you consider skipping the entire race as a valid strategy?

maybe only if your a speed runner looking to do things in the fastest most broken way possible…

But to the actual developers, you skip 98% of their hardwork actually developing and coding that race track.

I can say the same rules apply to DST when players are using exploits to bypass certain areas of the game.

Rather that effects you negatively or not is entirely on you, but if you choose to use an unintended method to do things and it got patched out, you can’t really complain about it once it gets fixed.

The above Mario video wouldn’t be possible by todays standards because developers would see & fix that.. but as you can tell from the video I have an extreme disliking to speed runners and exploits that pretty much “Ruin” the intended experience.

 

[JoeW]

Keep posts on-topic and without personal attacks. If you can get along with somebody, put them on your ignore list and move on. 

[Maxposting]

2 hours ago, Wenhelxing said:

From an economic standpoint, I OWN the game and am expecting to have fun playing it since I spent so much supporting the developers.

Games are nowadays updated frequently, and there are ways to use older versions of the game through steam.

2 hours ago, Wenhelxing said:

Does that mean that I can't even voice my concerns regarding something that negatively affects me? 

No.  I love a reasonable conversation and I'm certain these forums are for feedback and a bit more touch with the community.
I myself used the lureplant cheese when rekilling the fuelweaver on a megabase world, but I'm not going to be upset if it's gone, since it pretty much seems unintentional and gamebreaking when applied in ways like this.

[kroban]

7 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Does it not feel weird at all to type these sentences within days of insisting lureplant cheese is bad for the game...?

??? You even text comprehension, lil bro? 

I said in almost all of my comments about this topic that Im against lureplant cheese because you are NOT fighting the boss but just skipping the entire fight for an easy reward. Theres no variety, no "different gameplay" or mechanics you could be trying if you were fighting the boss in a legit way. You are just skipping the entire thing.

But that I use it myself (for Fuelweaver, learned to solo Misery a couple weeks ago) and understand why people do cheese him. That for some its kind of a "necessary evil". That no one wants to repeat Fuelweaver fight with how expensive and hard it is for the average player right now, specially if we are supposed to be farming him for Ruins. And Toadstool only needs small tweaks like the ones I mentioned. I think his HP pool isnt as much an issue as people make it seem to be, what does that even have to do with the lureplants cheese at all? 

Im tired of talking about this thing, but there are other solutions to this problem rather than just keeping a disgusting old cheese, Klei could for example separate FW from the Ruins reset mechanic, and just leave him as a boss you kill for >the best armor piece in the game< and the skeleton farming, maybe add him something else.

I said like in 5 comments already, Klei SHOULD rework these fights, then remove the cheese. Right here I was providing solutions for how they could tweak Toadstool if they are going to remove the cheese. Again, you even read before quoting? 

Edited March 25 by kroban

[zhangsheng]

7 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss isn't the problem either. The player's laziness in learning the boss's mechanics is the key to the problem.

Are players lazy? Lazy players should not defeat bosses or even play this game.

The boss's combat experience is so poor that players don't want to solve it through combat. Why didn't you see anyone using other methods to defeat the Ancient Guardian. Because the updated system not only has excellent mechanisms and generous rewards, but also provides a great combat experience.

Don't transfer the problem of boss design to the player. Just as the bug in Lureplant has been fixed, the boss design issue is the key to the problem.

[Faintly Macabre]

1 hour ago, kroban said:

??? You even text comprehension, lil bro?

Sure do.

1 hour ago, kroban said:

I think his HP pool isnt as much an issue as people make it seem to be, what does that even have to do with the lureplants cheese at all?

What you feel balances that overall, though, is that you only need to fight him once before you can... abuse blatantly flawed game logic that turns one instance of an object into the materials it costs to make 4 of said object, allowing you to multiply the materials endlessly, making as many as you like of a piece of furniture that completely trivializes your lighting needs without ever having to fight that boss again.

Still not seeing a contradiction?

Edited March 25 by Faintly Macabre

[Trontar]

I don’t know but both Ancient Fuelweavers fights and toadstool is very difficult on console. They did change a couple things with the console version/controller so the fight is better. I don’t mainly kill bosses in this game,but I’ve played… enough.
 

Primarily people skip the fight after killing it once or twice so they don’t have to repeatedly farm this boss because it gets boring. A sandbox game is literally developed to be largely finite (like minecraft or terraria) and fun. It doesn’t mean players CAN’T use the easiest way or be convinced not to use it. Choice and customization is one of the biggest concepts in this game. Settings and skins are a example. The game could scale from incredibly easy to hard. Flaws are in every game; which is obvious, but  I assume retaliation is the first response to something people don’t like, probably causing many lureplant topics. Nerfing the boss pathing or the lureplant IS good, there are more still more ways to kill that boss. (Somebody made a good point about the boss having such poor combat experience that players skip it!)The concept is that people can do anything to solve their problems in the game (usually), like switch characters to get items or practice to get better. Nobody can tell you how to play the game, because there too many possibilities already, but will you actually try less productive strategies often? Efficiency and brain occupation always won, which isn’t too upsetting considering how most people’s brains’ reward system works. Although  taking account into other people’s opinions about this can make this useful or useless.  Though  I can’t really do anything about it… sitting in front of a screen… on a forum talking about lureplant interactions. Well, that was supported by people’s goods points and my opinion. There’s not many facts.

Edited March 25 by Trontar