The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss itself is the key to the problem.

[Antynomity]

13 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

The deletion of Lureplant's mechanism is not the key to the problem. The design of the boss isn't the problem either. The player's laziness in learning the boss's mechanics is the key to the problem.

insert Ben the talking dog saying 'meh meh meh meh'

[kroban]

15 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

abuse blatantly flawed game logic that turns one instance of an object into the materials it costs to make 4 of said object, allowing you to multiply the materials endlessly, making as many as you like of a piece of furniture that completely trivializes your lighting needs without ever having to fight that boss again.

Still not seeing a contradiction?

Are you seriously putting skins duping on the same bag as lureplants cheese? Bruh 

Duping is a mechanic that has been in the game since early DS. Green staff returning 100% of the materials and green amulet halving the cost for a craft I would say that its pretty intentional from Klei's part. Theres a reason why the only thing you can't dupe are gems itself or some items that Klei devs decided to not allow to, like it happened with Enlightened Crown. Its 100% a mechanic in the game that Klei devs allow and are aware of. And yes, even the "multiple crafts", like it is the case with Dragonfly's turfs and napsacks.

And when it comes to Misery and the skin duping... what do you think is the actual reward for killing him? The only unique drop is the napsack, the rest you can get it from just killing  normal Toad, or even Klaus. At this point Klei devs are also pretty aware that people aren't getting napsacks to fight. Not only that, napsacks existed way before Enlightened Crown, if the skin duping was actually something "unintended" devs would have fixed that **** long ago by not letting the player break napsacks, and people would be completely ignoring Misery to just farm normal Toad.

I can't even understand why you are bringing the "skin dupe" mechanic to defend lureplants cheese, its a whole world of difference.

- One is an intended mechanic that requires a lot of effort farming materials for it, and killing Misery in a legit way is an entire task itself. When it comes to the "Infinite light" you are still required to farm another boss, CC, whom already drops you an infinite light source, the crown itself.

- The other "mechanic" is 2 plants doing something that is clearly unintentional (a giant can't pass through some 100hp plants but can break any other structure in the game, even dreadstone walls?) and that players abuse to repeteadly skip an entire fight for an easy reward with 0 effort and cost from their part.

Edited March 25 by kroban

[Faintly Macabre]

44 minutes ago, kroban said:

Its 100% a mechanic in the game that Klei devs allow and are aware of. And yes, even the "multiple crafts", like it is the case with Dragonfly's turfs and napsacks.

Suuure it is. And your evidence for that is...

46 minutes ago, kroban said:

if the skin duping was actually something "unintended" devs would have fixed that **** long ago by not letting the player break napsacks, and people would be completely ignoring Misery to just farm normal Toad.

Like they fixed lureplant cheese when it was discovered years ago?

It's the same old story, same old song and dance, my friends. Arbitrary lines drawn in the sand and no small amount of delusion.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

On 3/24/2024 at 3:54 AM, kroban said:

Personally, I dont think his HP is that much an issue.

Hp is really my only issue with the fight. It just takes so long that the attack patterns become monotonous. Less HP would help this problem, though another solution would be to have a greater window between spore cloud attacks. However, that just increases the damage you could do, essentially giving toadstool less HP + costing an extra dark sword.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, kroban said:

Are you seriously putting skins duping on the same bag as lureplants cheese? Bruh 

Oh, I like this copypasta

Are you seriously putting lureplants on the same bag as duping cheese? Bruh 

Lureplant blocking mechanic that has been in the game since early DS. Lureplants block mobs without being destroyed even if the mob tramples other structures I would say that its pretty intentional from Klei's part. There's a reason many mobs attack lureplants, or fly over them that Klei devs decided to not allow to, like it happened with Dragon Fly. Its 100% a mechanic in the game that Klei devs allow and are aware of. And yes, even the "boss blocking", like it is the case with Klaus and AFW.

And when it comes to Lureplant blocking AFW... what do you think is the actual reward for killing him? The unique drops require re-fighting him to farm, the rest you can get it from just killing  shadow creatures, or even chess pieces. At this point Klei devs are also pretty aware that people aren't planting lureplants for decoration. Not only that, lureplants existed way before AFW, if the mob blocking was actually something "unintended" devs would have fixed that **** long ago by not letting the player block mobs, and people would be completely ignoring lureplants to just cheese bosses other ways.

I can't even understand why you are bringing the "mob blocking" mechanic to defend duping cheese, its a whole world of difference.

- One is an intended mechanic that requires a lot of effort farming materials for it, gathering lureplants is an entire task itself. When it comes to the "hold f to kill" you are still required to farm another boss, AG and Shadow Pieces, whom already ignore lureplant blocking.

- The other "mechanic" is duping resourcecs something that is clearly unintentional (a few green gems create infinite thul, dreadstone, etc when you can get green gems even from tumbleweed?) and that players abuse to repeteadly skip legitimately farming resources for an easy reward with 0 effort and cost from their part.

Yup, checks out!!

Edited March 25 by Yuuko

[Well-met]

make bosses better but keep fixing exploits too

[kroban]

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Suuure it is. And your evidence for that is...

The fact that Klei never tried to change not even one single thing about the mechanic for like, 10 years, probably? That from the get go it wasn't possible to dupe gems? That they changed Enlightened Crown to not being dupeable yet they left the rest (df/toad skin, thulecite, dreadstone, etc) like it is for years? Idk man, seems like the evidence is there, we are talking of a +10 years old game and a mechanic thats pretty much the entire existence of green gem as an object. A mechanic that is almost as present in the game as pressing F to attack. Klei devs have been seeing players dupe things for +10 years, even the post-rift content, yet they never made a single negative statement about it. If dupeing WAS really a big deal like you pretend it is, with how present it is in the game, they would have 100% fixed this **** a decade ago. We are talking of a mechanic that can be used for almost everything in the game, I have seen people ******* dupeing salt lmao.

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Like they fixed lureplant cheese when it was discovered years ago?

How long have you been playing this game? They already tried to fix it atleast once from the time I have been playing DST, like 4 years ago, you can even go look at old vids on Youtube of people malding at this change. We are still able to do the cheese right now pretty much because of a bad fix lol.

Years ago you were able to do the lureplant cheese anywhere on Fuelweaver's area. Klei devs "fixed it" adding a mechanic where FW does his "fossil floor circle attack" (I dont know the exact name for that ****) if he gets blocked by anything towards his path to the Ancient Gateway, be it lureplants, spider nest, whatever. This is why you can no longer do the lureplant cheese too close to the portal, since he destroys them. This fix was intended to completely remove that type of cheese, yet people still managed to use the lureplant cheese by just doing it outside of the area where he does said special attack, which is how the lureplant cheese works right now.

3 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Oh, I like this copypasta

Nice one my dude, you put more effort in that copypasta meme than the effort it takes to lureplant cheese FW 2000 times put together, gratz

Edited March 26 by kroban

[Faintly Macabre]

3 hours ago, kroban said:

That they changed Enlightened Crown to not being dupeable yet they left the rest

They changed a single instance of a thing but decided against changing earlier variations of the same idea? Why does this sound familiar?

Also, you're equating the logical and completely consistent behavior of making stuff cheap with the ammy then breaking it to full price with staff, with making stuff with boss drops at regular price and getting four times as much of those boss drops back just because the thing's recipe yields four of the thing. You can't make this whole discussion about logic or proportional effort or polish or any of the other things people have been trying to make this about, and then pretend that killing a boss with 99999 HP once ever and then never having to touch it again because a single staff turns one skin into 16 is clearly intended behavior and just as legit as duping thulecite or salt.

3 hours ago, kroban said:

How long have you been playing this game?

DST specifically? Since beta/early access. Got into the original DS sometime between RoG and SW.

3 hours ago, kroban said:

They already tried to fix it atleast once from the time I have been playing DST, like 4 years ago, you can even go look at old vids on Youtube of people malding at this change. We are still able to do the cheese right now pretty much because of a bad fix lol.

Years ago you were able to do the lureplant cheese anywhere on Fuelweaver's area. Klei devs "fixed it" adding a mechanic where FW does his "fossil floor circle attack" (I dont know the exact name for that ****) if he gets blocked by anything towards his path to the Ancient Gateway, be it lureplants, spider nest, whatever. This is why you can no longer do the lureplant cheese too close to the portal, since he destroys them. This fix was intended to completely remove that type of cheese, yet people still managed to use the lureplant cheese by just doing it outside of the area where he does said special attack, which is how the lureplant cheese works right now.

So... I can't find what you're talking about, on several levels. I can't find a video of this malding. I can't find anybody talking about it on this forum or on reddit. I can't find any update notes of any related exploit being fixed. I can't find the cheering that the forum has demonstrated over the past few weeks would accompany such a fix. I haven't found this distance at which this fix occurred (I set up the lureplants just about as close as possible to the gate and watched him do the same thing he always does). I even opened the AFW's brain script, and found no evidence of this supposed behavior.

What I did find was a video from late 2017 of somebody doing the cheese the same way it's always been. The closest thing I could find to what you're talking about is this video, which is from about as long ago as you said you've been playing, but otherwise doesn't show what you're talking about at all. I actually think this second video is the one you were talking about, but you misunderstood or misremembered what you were seeing, including misreading the single comment on the video as "malding" when they're just praying it won't get fixed. I'm assuming this is what happened because otherwise it looks an awful lot like you just made stuff up.

If I'm wrong, do please direct me to your sources on this.

Edited March 26 by Faintly Macabre

[zhangsheng]

How come everyone has returned to the issue of cheese? Why hasn't anyone discussed boss design issues?

If boss battles were as interesting as Ancient Guardians, there wouldn't be so many people thinking about cheese.

[Faintly Macabre]

Sorry. Started from the HP thing and got sidetracked.

I don't really feel like AFW is any less interesting than AG though? My problem with AFW isn't that it isn't interesting, but that it is designed without solo or controller players in mind and that 7-8 years later it no longer makes sense to disregard the former or make the latter just play a harder game than PC players are playing.

I do think that controller/console players need some love, but I'm not sure the fight itself necessarily needs to change so much as their tools for engaging with the game need to be improved. But the boss fight is pretty well designed for 2 or more players, and I'm not sure it's the right call to actually tune the fight down for solos, making it less fun for players in groups.

I think the solution to the solo players' problem is... to just let them cheese it.

At least as far as AFW goes. Toadstool? That fight is a chore. Chop that HP down and grow a couple less trees or something. As it is now it's like 90% a test of either your endurance or your patience, and I don't know how to make that fun.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, zhangsheng said:

How come everyone has returned to the issue of cheese? Why hasn't anyone discussed boss design issues?

If boss battles were as interesting as Ancient Guardians, there wouldn't be so many people thinking about cheese.

I think, b/c the boss battles really aren't the issue.  Cheese isn't just about bosses, and the lureplant isn't the only cheese.

What are they actually accomplishing here?  If Klei wanted to remove all of the cheese from DST they'd have to re-make the entire game.  Anyone who is complaining about cheese will *still* have cheese to complain about.  Anyone who might "see a cheese video and think less of dst" is still gonna see existing vids, but also new vids to update ppl on what works now.

If console has bad controls (they do,) the controls need to be fixed.  I played on console for a short while and gave my feedback years ago.  Klei only *now* changes a few things?  Not good enough.  The control system needs to be re-worked.

 

As for AFW - it is able to be defeated, and poses an adequate end-game challenge.  imo its better than CC as a skill check because the healing can absolutely re-set the fight if you mess up.  As much as the anti-lureplant ppl like to repeat their arguments about weak players, many who cheese AFW also kill it legitimately.

The main reason many people who are able to clear AFW still cheese it is repeatability.  The bone cage kinda demands tanking or teleporting, which both turn the fight into a resource sink.  Weather pains too, if you use those.  The only real advantage you gain on re-fight is access to insanity via bone helm.  Should something be changed to make the fight easier on re-play?  idk, why?  Why do that when we can just cheese it on replay?

tbh that is my position.  Cheese, exploiting the tools the game gives us, that is fun.  I enjoy the different ways to cheese AFW and other bosses AND I enjoy fighting them legit too.  Typically when I start a new world I decide my path through the game including which cheese I want to employ and which challenges I'll carry out manually.  When I repeat a boss I typically try to do it a different way just to keep things entertaining, so if I fight AFW manually the first time I'm likely to cheese it the second just to keep it fun.

Edited March 26 by Yuuko

[Mike23Ua]

Without turning this into a Massive TL:DR long ago when boss fights only purpose in fighting them was to obtain luxury survival or building items, it was Okay for bosses to be annoying & a grind, hell it was even Okay to be unfairly balanced around Multiple Players! But Moonstorms & Wild Rifts changes that, Because NOW that is directly locking new world based content (that can be enjoyed by solo players) behind needing to fight bosses designed to be fought by multiple players.

If that doesn’t throw up a bunch of red flags that something needs to be changed, nothing ever will.

[cropo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Without turning this into a Massive TL:DR long ago when boss fights only purpose in fighting them was to obtain luxury survival or building items, it was Okay for bosses to be annoying & a grind, hell it was even Okay to be unfairly balanced around Multiple Players! But Moonstorms & Wild Rifts changes that, Because NOW that is directly locking new world based content (that can be enjoyed by solo players) behind needing to fight bosses designed to be fought by multiple players.

If that doesn’t throw up a bunch of red flags that something needs to be changed, nothing ever will.

I normally don't agree with most stuff you say but I think this is actually a really good point. 

[kroban]

7 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

So... I can't find what you're talking about, on several levels.

Here's atleast one quick example I've found of how lureplant cheese used to work . It is kind of the same as the one you mentioned from 2017, but I think the beard guy made it closer to the Gateway. Klei tried to fix this by making FW break what used to be the main lureplants, the ones closer to the gate. Right now you can only do the cheese on the edges of the area and putting lureplants outside of the circles, otherwise FW stops walking, makes the "circles around portal" attack, and destroys whatever is blocking his path. Also you can't spawn Fuelweaver that far from the Gateway anymore (in both videos they are basically spawning him at the gate). This is another fix Klei tried to do, precisely because people were just straight up spawning him locked.

The funny thing is that the video from my example was made 3 years ago, and right at that second on the video you can even hear to the beard guy saying "Im shocked to see that this thing still works, I heard it wasnt anymore, it used to be that Fuelweaver couldnt attack lureplants, now he can". This most likely means that even before the fix im talking about, Klei had already tried another way to solve it. It failed, and then they did the "floor attack" thing at the center of the area, which is what we have today, that still hasnt solved the issue at all.

Edited March 26 by kroban

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, kroban said:

Here's atleast one quick example I've found of how lureplant cheese used to work . It is kind of the same as the one you mentioned from 2017, but I think the beard guy made it closer to the Gateway. Klei tried to fix this by making FW break what used to be the main lureplants, the ones closer to the gate. Right now you can only do the cheese on the edges of the area and putting lureplants outside of the circles, otherwise FW stops walking, makes the "circles around portal" attack, and destroys whatever is blocking his path. Also you can't spawn Fuelweaver that far from the Gateway anymore (in both videos they are basically spawning him at the gate). This is another fix Klei tried to do, precisely because people were just straight up spawning him locked.

The funny thing is that the video from my example was made 3 years ago, and right at that second on the video you can even hear to the beard guy saying "Im shocked to see that this thing still works, I heard it wasnt anymore, it used to be that Fuelweaver couldnt attack lureplants, now he can". This most likely means that even before the fix im talking about, Klei had already tried another way to solve it. It failed, and then they did the "floor attack" thing at the center of the area, which is what we have today, that still hasnt solved the issue at all.

To me it seems like you are arbitrary deciding what you see as cheese or exploit. Here's a link to the update that disabled duping crown.

 Does that mean that we shouldn't be able to dupe anything and it should be "fixed"? According to you it does since klei "tried" fixing it once.

I don't want any of these to be "fixed" and limit my choices.

Why are you are picking and choosing the ones you like to stay in the game? 

[cropo]

Another solution is that you can get a seed of ruin from ancient guardian after fuelweaver has been defeated at least once, using it would trigger the same reset function as defeating AFW.

[Faintly Macabre]

1 hour ago, kroban said:

snip

That's not how it "used to work." That's how it works to this day. I switched back to the release build and did it myself (and as I mentioned, practically put the lureplants on top of the gate). And it's a little harder to see because of his camera zoom putting the arena decor in the way, but if you look at the pattern on the floor you can see he actually has AFW and the bulbs very slightly further away than the one I linked. As for Beard's musings, he literally says he just "heard" it wasn't working, but... it is. That's what that segment of the video is about. He's showing you it still works. I don't know what he's talking about re: targeting lureplants, but as you can see, he's not targeting them. If there's no player in the arena, he doesn't do anything but try to stop the fight. Just like he did years before Beard's video.

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

it was even Okay to be unfairly balanced around Multiple Players!

I don't think it's unfair for a multiplayer game to have had challenges that were designed to be tackled by multiple players, but I do think it's time to recognize after 8 years that DST is a game that a lot of people are playing simply because it's the sequel to DS, a lot of those players would rather play alone, and those players should have a reasonable path forward.

[cropo]

18 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

. As for Beard's musings, he literally says he just "heard" it wasn't working, but... it is. That's what that segment of the video is about. He's showing you it still works. I don't know what he's talking about re: targeting lureplants, but as you can see, he's not targeting them. If there's no player in the arena, he doesn't do anything but try to stop the fight. Just like he did years before Beard's video.

Honestly I would put this on the fault of Beard himself, Beard has had some really bad takes at times. I don't remember there ever being a time when fuelweaver was ''updated'' to prevent lureplanting. The most likely explanation I can think of is that when the fight is started, you need to attack fuelweaver at least once, or have him aggro you for the houndius to consider him a valid "target". If you don't do this fast enough, he will attempt to attack you and his AOE will hit the lure plants. If he manages to do his bone encirclement, it might break the lureplants. He might even do it if you teleport out, because he will still be temporarily aggrod to you, and the bone spell doesn't need a target like his melee and prison do.

Edited March 26 by cropo

[cybers2001]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:28 PM, _zwb said:

If I'm going to kill a boss hundreds of times i will be "lazy" and use the cheese, it's just too boring after killing it so many times

Fuelweaver becomes so much easier later on, though. 

Drop 4 thuribles and you can completely remove the bone cage.
Bring a brightshade staff and you can kill the woven shadows and the unseen hands at the same time.
Bonus if you're Wolfgang with lunar affinity and voltgoat chaudefroid.

Takes more time to rearrange your inventory before and after the fight than the fight itself.

[_zwb]

18 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Fuelweaver becomes so much easier later on, though. 

Drop 4 thuribles and you can completely remove the bone cage.
Bring a brightshade staff and you can kill the woven shadows and the unseen hands at the same time.
Bonus if you're Wolfgang with lunar affinity and voltgoat chaudefroid.

Takes more time to rearrange your inventory before and after the fight than the fight itself.

It's not about difficulty, it's about boredom from doing the same fight over and over again.

[cybers2001]

6 hours ago, _zwb said:

It's not about difficulty, it's about boredom from doing the same fight over and over again.

It literally becomes a sub 2-minute fight. How bored are you?

[_zwb]

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

It literally becomes a sub 2-minute fight. How bored are you?

Feels much longer than that, probably just psychology.

[Jakepeng99]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:54 AM, kroban said:

That said, I think Misery just need some small changes to become a much better fight. Most people easily understand his mechanics and barely get damage, his annoying side comes from "too many mushtrees", too many poison areas, and his BS earthquake jump. 

I think it just needs tree scaling for multiplayer. Toadstool is a really fun fight in multiplayer.

 

Also make the funcaps have special abilities.

On 3/27/2024 at 3:54 PM, cybers2001 said:

It literally becomes a sub 2-minute fight. How bored are you?

Its  more than 2 minutes.

[grm9]

38 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I think it just needs tree scaling for multiplayer

if you mean making it spawn less mushtrees while playing solo, that'll just make it easier and more boring, since you won't need to chop some trees to get it down to lvl 2 for 40%/lvl 1 for 20% absorption and burn the rest because you could just chop all of them instead

[Jakepeng99]

On 3/30/2024 at 7:50 PM, grm9 said:

if you mean making it spawn less mushtrees while playing solo

No, slower.