Willow, too powerful

[CCCR33]

You only need a few pictures to understand

[dd_pp]

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1uM411Z7DZ/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click&vd_source=01e61d6f834886110f9afece938a644d

 

EZ 

[NoodlemanNed]

oh boy you are NOT going to like wendy

[ZeRoboButler]

Honestly... there are several characters in the roster who can do these things already, for example...

maxwell can kill beequeen with a single darksword, night armor, a shadow imbued top hat and 20-25 nightmarefuel without even getting hit.

wendy and abbie just smite hoards as is, webber can do the same with spiders for the cost of monster meat.

If you would like to see useful and productive change, the input on the issue should reflect that.

The question is what is the issue and what is your idea for a solution.

1. is it a numbers problem? - tweak cost or dmg
2. is it an ease of access issue/ to easy to get a hold of? - lock it behind magic tiers or a character quest similar to how webber feeds spiders to earn the switcher-doodles

 

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, ZeRoboButler said:

Honestly... there are several characters in the roster who can do these things already, for example...

maxwell can kill beequeen with a single darksword, night armor, a shadow imbued top hat and 20-25 nightmarefuel without even getting hit.

wendy and abbie just smite hoards as is, webber can do the same with spiders for the cost of monster meat.

If you would like to see useful and productive change, the input on the issue should reflect that.

The question is what is the issue and what is your idea for a solution.

1. is it a numbers problem? - tweak cost or dmg
2. is it an ease of access issue/ to easy to get a hold of? - lock it behind magic tiers or a character quest similar to how webber feeds spiders to earn the switcher-doodles

 

TBH if it isn't already, willow should be limited to a stack of embers, like Wortox.

[Fufuji]

Beequeen deserves this.

Anything considering about being too OP for bosses like Beequeen ( and CK, The Twins, Toadstool) will eventually come out a lame design and poor gaming experience. Because their designs are based on the worst battles of the game.

[ZeRoboButler]

Just now, WenericMember said:

TBH if it isn't already, willow should be limited to a stack of embers, like Wortox.

it will probbaly just be circumvented the same way he does it, a bug net and some bugs (butterflies, bees or light bugs), only it will be a bit clumsy

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, ZeRoboButler said:

it will probbaly just be circumvented the same way he does it, a bug net and some bugs (butterflies, bees or light bugs), only it will be a bit clumsy

But it still stops Willow from being able to infinitely repeat casting, forcing her to space it out by killing butterflies.

Plus i'm sorta miffed that Wortox has a hard cap with souls being necessary for his survival while willow doesn't

[Ohan]

27 minutes ago, ZeRoboButler said:

Honestly... there are several characters in the roster who can do these things already, for example...

maxwell can kill beequeen with a single darksword, night armor, a shadow imbued top hat and 20-25 nightmarefuel without even getting hit.

If maxwell is in any way the new standard of balance DST is over lol.

Hes indistinguishable from a modded anime character in terms of blatant disregard for balance. 

More survivors being turned into abominations like maxwell sounds horrible. 

[arubaro]

why people keep claiming something is op when they are only using c_give()x1000 instead of testing it in a real playthrow? you might not use it at all if you needed to farm the embers

[Jakepeng99]

46 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

oh boy you are NOT going to like wendy

Wendy cant do this against bee queen though.

[skile]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Wendy cant do this against bee queen though.

Wendy still destroys BQ though. 

[Jakepeng99]

3 minutes ago, skile said:

Wendy still destroys BQ though. 

She doesnt destroy it. It is a balanced fight.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, ZeRoboButler said:

it will probbaly just be circumvented the same way he does it, a bug net and some bugs (butterflies, bees or light bugs), only it will be a bit clumsy

Eh, Wortox can capture a stack of butterfly and just r-click murder them for souls.  I found I could not drop more than a few butterflies at a time to keep up with attacking them before they ran away.  Its a much slower process to refill embers from held butterflies.  You need a lot of embers for the powerful spells too.

I don't think its hard to pile up embers and don't object to a 1 stack cap, although I'm not convinced its needed b/c her spells are not that OP.  I mean killing spiders is great, but it doesn't really mean that much.  If she could do this to waves of hounds, or shadow monkeys like Abi gain I'd be a bit more impressed.  I haven't tried this out - the combust skill has crashed me every time I've tried to use it - but until I try it myself it just looks like "eh, that's cool" tier of power.

[Bird Up]

here's the thing. wendy has yet to even get her skill tree. when wendy gets her skill tree, willow will look like a chump. 

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Bird Up said:

here's the thing. wendy has yet to even get her skill tree. when wendy gets her skill tree, willow will look like a chump. 

Depends on how much her skill tree aligns with Wolfgang's - ie a bunch of nerfs compensated with skills to restore that power.

[WenericMember]

44 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Depends on how much her skill tree aligns with Wolfgang's - ie a bunch of nerfs compensated with skills to restore that power.

I wouldn't mind LVL 2 & 3 Abigail being locked behind perks or something to that extent.

I think the main thing Wendy wants is utility Perks & a way to make hex more consistant v Giants.

Ever since Wilson's character refresh, Wendy kinda stands out as the only character without minor perks. She has Abbi, she has reduced sanity drain and that's about the extent of her Perks. It's never been that big of a problem like Walter and Willow who lacked a core mechanic to truly define them, but its definitely noticeable and probably helped contribute to her stigma as a "Newbie" character.

On the other hand, while Abbi functions exceptionally well against hordes, decent backup against stronger singular mobs, she gets eviscerated by most giants, leaving Wendy with minimal ways to circumvent her 0.75x Damage multiplier. Even if its just a way to inflict her hex so shes more useful against bosses in a group setting, she needs something considering how much emphasis the community puts on ability to fight giants.

Ideally I think her tree should be 20% regaining things from nerfs, 30% giving Abigail ways to deal with giants, 50% utility

Other things:

• I want the sisturn to be something more than "Run to boost Abigail", maybe the ability to place her flower in it for a longer range turret
• I really hope she gets reviver related utility perks, its thematically appropriate and would fit in a combat support archetype that her hex seems to want to promote.
• However they make Abbi deal with giants, I hope they don't let her increase Max HP. That will make it so Abbi starts conflicting in roles with Bernie, who's finally getting an identity.

[Yuuko]

Well, tried the bq fight.  Willow can clear the grumbles with this spell easy enough, but its damage did not seem significant against bq herself.  You are slowed down while using the spell and it aims with your characters facing so you can't kite while using it at all - meaning you take hits from b queen in exchange for clearing grumbles.  There is probably some merit in clearing grumbles, especially if you're playing as a group.  It costs a LOT of souls to keep this going though, farming 2 stacks of souls was some work, imo its fair enough but certainly not OP or cheese.

As for the Klaus clip there are a lot of ways to cheese Klaus if you want.  This is nothing special.  idk why they bothered to make him walk through his sack, it was the most mild of cheese and thematically sound for the game b/c it causes collision with the player AND it was a skillful play to make while kiting him...  They should put it back, imo it was a mistake to remove it.  It made his fight worse in a bad way and did nothing about "cheese."

[Szczuku]

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

why people keep claiming something is op when they are only using c_give()x1000 instead of testing it in a real playthrow? you might not use it at all if you needed to farm the embers

Aren't embers, like, self-fueling? Once you have your first batch of embers you can use your default spell to burn a bunch of spiders (as spiders aren't hard to group together) to get more embers

[Capybara007]

"Balance doesnt matter in dst" dudes when

[Yuuko]

48 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Aren't embers, like, self-fueling? Once you have your first batch of embers you can use your default spell to burn a bunch of spiders (as spiders aren't hard to group together) to get more embers

It takes 4 embers to cast combustion, even hitting 10 targets in a cast you're not building up very fast.  Its not too difficult to get a swarm of spiders, but while you're casting you can take damage and have the spell cancelled - getting 20+ spiders in a single cast is not going to be easy.  Once you get them lit it takes a while for them to burn and while they do mostly die from 1 cast they don't always...

This also requires you take the extra burn duration and fire damage perks.  Without those they will never die from a single cast.  Taking that many lighter perks means you're sacrificing a better bernie or other lighter perks.  It may be fine to skimp on bernie if you want - but that is the trade off just for... sorta okay ember farming.

Like @arubaro said its easy to use console commands to spawn 40 spiders next to you to combust at once, but getting that many in the spell at once without having your spell cancelled, or dying is not.  I'm not saying farming embers is hard - just I don't think this is the way.  You'd probably be better off dropping Bernie and letting him aggro the spiders while you go through 1 by 1 with a torch and a ham bat.  Attack once with the torch to light them up, then swing with the bat to finish them, repeat.  Its a LOT quicker.

idk what perk trees other people have been buying into, but what I have found works best for me so far is to skip burn duration, fire starter, and combustion in lighter - taking all of the others ones with either shadow or lunar fire spell, then 2 points to bernie regen and health with 1 into speed and sanity, and the planar bernie skill.

[Captain_Rage]

The system requirements for playing this game went from 100 IQ to about 40 IQ. Seriously, the devs killed the difficulty of the game quite a while ago and it is only getting worse. At this point it is sad to watch.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Ohan said:

If maxwell is in any way the new standard of balance DST is over lol.

Hes indistinguishable from a modded anime character in terms of blatant disregard for balance. 

More survivors being turned into abominations like maxwell sounds horrible. 

The problem is people were against Maxwell getting his kit nerfed despite how outrageous his post refresh state was and many even defending it so because of that he is the new standard. So now if characters don't reach his standard the question becomes well what about Maxwell who still doesn't have a skill tree yet meaning he's going to become even more of a abomination.

I've been talking about the balance issue to an extent since Wendy's and Webber's refresh with the general consensus being "this isn't a moba and balance doesn't matter because sandbox just play someone else". We're too far gone already is more or less what I'm saying unless Klei wants to go through and do a round of nerf refreshes which we all know would get get them absolutely ripped to shreds at this point.

5 hours ago, CCCR33 said:

You only need a few pictures to understand

Another thing I'd like to bring up here is if you go lower than the current damage output on either of these skills they become completely not worth it so even if Klei wanted to nerf them they'd have to just completely replace them with something new.

Edit: Figured I'd add that aside from using exactly large spider farms building up embers is also quite tedious as combust on average will give you a net negative on embers outside of a controlled controlled scenarios and individually lighting mobs on fire is extremely tedious currently.

[WenericMember]

I think a character downsides rebalancing could be received well enough paired with another skill tree/content update under one condition: characters don't become weaker, their downsides become stronger. Make it so you are TRULY committing to a playstyle when you pick a character: some examples:

• Maxwell, instead of having halved HP, now has normal HP but can no longer wear armour (Its not dapper enough). Suddenly, his extreme fragility justifies all the crazy shenanigans he can perform.
• Willow, instead of losing sanity when cold, is now cold in Autumn/spring by default, but completely immune to overheating in summer. Now the fires she sets with magic are necessary to keep her alive
• Woodie, instead of having to eat a few monster meat, now has his curse triggered by anything contaminated by monster meat, such as crock pot dishes.

The downsides should be fine as long as they reinforce the playstyles of the characters. Willow sets fires, Maxwell has to play puppetmaster, Woodie has to take better care to manage his curse, especially in a multiplayer environment.

Wormwood is a good example of how a character can have really strong perks, but not be considered unhealthy when they have an extreme downside to diversify playstyles.

[grm9]

33 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

• Maxwell, instead of having halved HP, now has normal HP but can no longer wear armour (Its not dapper enough). Suddenly, his extreme fragility justifies all the crazy shenanigans he can perform

beefalo, also duelist damage increases require wearing armor