Willow, too powerful

[WenericMember]

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

beefalo, also duelist damage increases require wearing armor

These were ideas I thought up within a minute. Obviously they'd require some fine tuning to be effective.

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

It takes 4 embers to cast combustion, even hitting 10 targets in a cast you're not building up very fast.  Its not too difficult to get a swarm of spiders, but while you're casting you can take damage and have the spell cancelled - getting 20+ spiders in a single cast is not going to be easy.  Once you get them lit it takes a while for them to burn and while they do mostly die from 1 cast they don't always...

This also requires you take the extra burn duration and fire damage perks.  Without those they will never die from a single cast.  Taking that many lighter perks means you're sacrificing a better bernie or other lighter perks.  It may be fine to skimp on bernie if you want - but that is the trade off just for... sorta okay ember farming.

Like @arubaro said its easy to use console commands to spawn 40 spiders next to you to combust at once, but getting that many in the spell at once without having your spell cancelled, or dying is not.  I'm not saying farming embers is hard - just I don't think this is the way.  You'd probably be better off dropping Bernie and letting him aggro the spiders while you go through 1 by 1 with a torch and a ham bat.  Attack once with the torch to light them up, then swing with the bat to finish them, repeat.  Its a LOT quicker.

idk what perk trees other people have been buying into, but what I have found works best for me so far is to skip burn duration, fire starter, and combustion in lighter - taking all of the others ones with either shadow or lunar fire spell, then 2 points to bernie regen and health with 1 into speed and sanity, and the planar bernie skill.

is like if klei suddenly add weather pains, blow darts or gun powder and people use console commands to claim they are op...

there are many good items that arent used for the simple reason of needing to go out your way to farm them. For example, when i played wendy i didnt even use that much of her elixirs because you need time to farm them 

edit. another example: i dont use wormwood moonshroom perk/napsacks even when they are better for sleeping certain enemies because is faster to just spam pan flutes 

[Antynomity]

3 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

The system requirements for playing this game went from 100 IQ to about 40 IQ. Seriously, the devs killed the difficulty of the game quite a while ago and it is only getting worse. At this point it is sad to watch.

I love how we went from a meta where the most powerful things a character could do was either double damage and a speed boost OR generating mountains of food OR a big speedboost + winter protection + darkness protection that required upkeep to whatever tf it is now.

[Captain_Rage]

20 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

I love how we went from a meta where the most powerful things a character could do was either double damage and a speed boost OR generating mountains of food OR a big speedboost + winter protection + darkness protection that required upkeep to whatever tf it is now.

And the best part is that the mentality of the flock goes like this: two new gamebreaking and really overpowered abilities are introduced, both completely mess up how the game plays out (the game was challenging and fine before, that is) and one of the new abilities is slightly worse at killing everything the screen instantly and effortlessly than the other ability so now they beg for a buff.

[Antynomity]

5 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

And the best part is that the mentality of the flock goes like this: two new gamebreaking and really overpowered abilities are introduced, both completely mess up how the game plays out (the game was challenging and fine before, that is) and one of the new abilities is slightly worse at killing everything the screen instantly and effortlessly than the other ability so now they beg for a buff.

yeah, and don't you dare even speak out or you will have people at your neck lol

[Theukon-dos]

DST players explaining how being able to deal 800+ damage in exchange for killing 5 butterflies is actually perfectly balanced and healthy for the game as a whole.

[Trips]

honestly, the combat of the game isn't really hard to begin with.. besides learning the kiting patterns, you basically can beat everything in the game with enough healing items and armor (excluding certain raid bosses like Crab King and Bee Queen which require cheese to be enjoyable to fight solo)

there was one showcase highlighting an example of how OP willow is by killing this spider queen from afar... do you want a medal for killing such a simple miniboss? even the seasonal giants are rather trivial to fight once you've memorized how many hits you can get in before kiting. 


if anything, i welcome the overall power boost the roster is getting since it enables more complex boss designs for the future. and bosses like Bee Queen absolutely deserve to be trivialized with just how horribly the fight is designed (already extremely easy with a team of 6, but a grueling resource and pan flute check solo)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Antynomity said:

I love how we went from a meta where the most powerful things a character could do was either double damage and a speed boost OR generating mountains of food OR a big speedboost + winter protection + darkness protection that required upkeep to whatever tf it is now.

I still say the Maxwell refresh was where the community should've pushed back against the massive powercreep is kinda too late now. Heck I still think Maxwell's perks are outrageous.

[Captain_Rage]

There is a difference between stacking up on armor and weapons to take on an arbitrary stack of spiders and shutting them down with one item that happens to linger in your inventory because apparently now it is a "thing", don't you think? It's not about killing a miniboss. No need to act stupid, unless... well. The problem is that you can crawl out of any hostile situation without preparation or foresight with these abilities. The game used to be about survival; you need to prepare accordingly for the reward / progression you want to achieve, whether you are playing it relatively safe or go for a high-risk-high-reward strat. The game kind of had room for both, before. I've already mentioned three times since the beta was released yesterday that such changes could be considered alright if there were new threats to tackle. As for now the new abilities simply bring the excitement of the game to rock bottom.

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Trips said:

enables more complex boss designs

[blacknight7890]

Honestly, at this point if a character update doesn't let you cheese bee queen, is it even really an update?

[Mysterious box]

I know I'ma get flack for this but the game needs to have all characters balanced around the same level it's the only way to prevent power creep.

[arubaro]

5 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

There is a difference between stacking up on armor and weapons to take on an arbitrary stack of spiders and shutting them down with one item that happens to linger in your inventory because apparently now it is a "thing", don't you think? It's not about killing a miniboss. No need to act stupid, unless... well. The problem is that you can crawl out of any hostile situation without preparation or foresight with these abilities. The game used to be about survival; you need to prepare accordingly for the reward / progression you want to achieve, whether you are playing it relatively safe or go for a high-risk-high-reward strat. The game kind of had room for both, before. I've already mentioned three times since the beta was released yesterday that such changes could be considered alright if there were new threats to tackle. As for now the new abilities simply bring the excitement of the game to rock bottom.

but you need to prepare to get embers, they arent free. Is tiresome to burn each enemy and kill them before fire stops. 

 

a lot of salt about a beta in this forum when someone sane could simply suggest to nerf the damage deal per tick or the duration of the spell but man, apparently there are many people with issues arround here so better be dramatic about something that was release to be tested 

[BalkanCockroach]

43 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

yeah, and don't you dare even speak out or you will have people at your neck lol.

Nobody is at anyones neck, the worst thing that can happen is you get shopcats. Anyways this game will be a full on rpg in the next arc. And there is a Shark man with a New Yorkian accent in the game. There's no going back now.

[arubaro]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

he should dive to free himself from the cage. Klei need to add interactions to nerf such stupid spell, idk what they were thinking when designed it

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

It takes 4 embers to cast combustion, even hitting 10 targets in a cast you're not building up very fast.  Its not too difficult to get a swarm of spiders, but while you're casting you can take damage and have the spell cancelled - getting 20+ spiders in a single cast is not going to be easy.  Once you get them lit it takes a while for them to burn and while they do mostly die from 1 cast they don't always...

This also requires you take the extra burn duration and fire damage perks.  Without those they will never die from a single cast.  Taking that many lighter perks means you're sacrificing a better bernie or other lighter perks.  It may be fine to skimp on bernie if you want - but that is the trade off just for... sorta okay ember farming.

Like @arubaro said its easy to use console commands to spawn 40 spiders next to you to combust at once, but getting that many in the spell at once without having your spell cancelled, or dying is not.  I'm not saying farming embers is hard - just I don't think this is the way.  You'd probably be better off dropping Bernie and letting him aggro the spiders while you go through 1 by 1 with a torch and a ham bat.  Attack once with the torch to light them up, then swing with the bat to finish them, repeat.  Its a LOT quicker.

idk what perk trees other people have been buying into, but what I have found works best for me so far is to skip burn duration, fire starter, and combustion in lighter - taking all of the others ones with either shadow or lunar fire spell, then 2 points to bernie regen and health with 1 into speed and sanity, and the planar bernie skill.

No, no. it is that easy to farm Embers. See, what you're forgetting is that even if you fully invest in fire, Bernie still does exist. And just so happens to be a massive HP sponge who's designed to draw agro away from Willow, and thus is perfect for farming embers. Just throw him down in the middle of a spider quarry or killer bee field (The latter once they fix Combustion again), and you can very easily end up with tons upon tons of embers with very little risk or investment.

Sure, Bernie's not invulnerable. But he's pretty darn close for our purposes. And given that you just killed a good 2-3 dozen spiders minimum, you're going to easily have more than enough silk to make a sewing kit and patch him up.

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

No, no. it is that easy to farm Embers. See, what you're forgetting is that even if you fully invest in fire, Bernie still does exist. And just so happens to be a massive HP sponge who's designed to draw agro away from Willow, and thus is perfect for farming embers. Just throw him down in the middle of a spider quarry or killer bee field (The latter once they fix Combustion again), and you can very easily end up with tons upon tons of embers with very little risk or investment.

Sure, Bernie's not invulnerable. But he's pretty darn close for our purposes. And given that you just killed a good 2-3 dozen spiders minimum, you're going to easily have more than enough silk to make a sewing kit and patch him up.

eehhh idk if you've done this or not, but I still think it would be faster to drop Bernie down, let him take aggro, and just 1-2 with lighter then ham bat to kill the spiders individually rather than do combustion.  imo combustion is way over costed and weak.  After playing with it, I skip it in skill tree now.

Fair point you can have Bernie help wrangle them, but it still takes 4 embers to cast and FOREVER for the spiders to die - and there is a chance they don't - AND then you have to waddle all across the screen gathering embers.  This isn't some nuke spell, the spiders make a mess.  A lot of the loot gets lost b/c it drops smoldering but you aren't everywhere at once to pick it up so you lose a lot of it.

I think its still better to have Bernie hold aggro and just go through one by one.  Hit with a lighter, then with a hambat to finish it.  Switch to lighter and suck up ember, then attack next spider and repeat.  This way I get all my embers close by and they die fast.

Again - I'm not saying farming up Embers is hard - its just, combustion on spiders is not OP for farming them.  I get enough just fighting whatever I'm fighting.  Its not like having a stockpile of embers is that OP anyway.  The top tier lunar spell damage is only good IF you hit multiple targets with it.  Single target its not that great.

[Trips]

20 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

if i cited this boss as an example, then you'd have every right to call me out. but i didn't cite spider queen or any seasonal giant as an example.. plus this is clearly pre-rift content that's probably around the same tier as seasonal giants, like malbatross. 


i didn't say EVERY new boss is gonna be a banger, and my expectations are a lot higher for post-rift stuff than Baby's First Boss tier

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Trips said:

my expectations are a lot higher for post-rift stuff

9 nf, around 10-11 if you count in the 5% left to refuel on the codex and 29% on the thurible 

[Primalflower]

I LOVE WILLOW DONT CHANGE HER

[Theukon-dos]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I LOVE WILLOW DONT CHANGE HER

Pfp checks out.

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I think a character downsides rebalancing could be received well enough paired with another skill tree/content update under one condition: characters don't become weaker, their downsides become stronger. Make it so you are TRULY committing to a playstyle when you pick a character: some examples:

• Maxwell, instead of having halved HP, now has normal HP but can no longer wear armour (Its not dapper enough). Suddenly, his extreme fragility justifies all the crazy shenanigans he can perform.
• Willow, instead of losing sanity when cold, is now cold in Autumn/spring by default, but completely immune to overheating in summer. Now the fires she sets with magic are necessary to keep her alive
• Woodie, instead of having to eat a few monster meat, now has his curse triggered by anything contaminated by monster meat, such as crock pot dishes.

The downsides should be fine as long as they reinforce the playstyles of the characters. Willow sets fires, Maxwell has to play puppetmaster, Woodie has to take better care to manage his curse, especially in a multiplayer environment.

Wormwood is a good example of how a character can have really strong perks, but not be considered unhealthy when they have an extreme downside to diversify playstyles.

I agree with characters needing more interesting downsides. These downsides are interesting, but at the same time absolute bonkers like the maxwell no armour one. (The Willow one is kinda interesting i like it)

[Antynomity]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

snip

I would have definitely pushed back myself if I tested his rework when it was in beta after a few patches. I don't think it's too late to cause change but the change will not be instant if pushback is started now compared to a beta.

[WONTow]

I like how the community parkoured between "Willow is so weak, she desperately needs a buff" to "nooooo Willow is too strong, something something Maxwell, something something powercreep".

Like holy shud pick one.

Willow has been sitting at the bottom next to Wes for over a decade, let us have this single ounce of morsel for once in our miserable lives. She for once feels completely unique and finally fills a niche and feels fun to play, is that not what everyone wanted for years? Apparently not. Everything has to be completely unfair and brutal and fun isn't allowed anymore.

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

 

Can't wait for Maxwell after the skill tree!

2 minutes ago, WONTow said:

I like how the community parkoured between "Willow is so weak, she desperately needs a buff" to "nooooo Willow is too strong, something something Maxwell, something something powercreep".

Like holy shud pick one.

Willow has been sitting at the bottom next to Wes for over a decade, let us have this single ounce of morsel for once in our miserable lives. She for once feels completely unique and finally fills a niche and feels fun to play, is that not what everyone wanted for years? Apparently not. Everything has to be completely unfair and brutal and fun isn't allowed anymore.

Wormwood would like to have a word with you, even after his skill tree he isn't powerful enough considering how much more grindy his downside makes healing to obtain.

Both the powercreep and lack of usefulness / power for a lot of characters is the fault of Klei, not anyone else.