[Game Update] - Public Testing 579980

[VitaCoke]

28 minutes ago, Kderosa said:

it does not hold two of the the items it is best suited for: rad pills and berry sludge (AKA rocket food) and (presumably in the future) dehydrated food. I mean come on now how did that make it past the design committee.

=) look again

 

But I agree on the 1000 kg. it needs a slider or numbers. you dont wanna have 1000kg of Dry Rations on a single Rocket.

Edited November 3, 2023 by VitaCoke

[Kderosa]

2 minutes ago, VitaCoke said:

=) look again

Awesome:  Now all they have to do is re-classify berry sludge and rad pills as dehydrated (or maybe we'll be able to dehydrate them which seems kinda silly) and problem solved.

Still a bit problematic storing 1000 kg of dry rations which would last about eleventy million cycles more than needed (and would effectively be once again be ALL my dry rations (you other rockets will have to do without)

[blakemw]

13 hours ago, JarrettM said:

•  
• Meter valves now reset only when first receiving a green signal, and are no longer "held open" by a continuous signal.

Neat. This seems to address this issue I made. And it's a very big deal for purposes like sending a specific amount of material to an Interplanetary Payload Launcher.

However it is a significantly build-breaking change if you use meter valves as valve+shutoff combinations rather than meters, this is a rather popular use case especially because the conveyor meter can actually split packets, but also because it's convenient to have a combination valve+shutoff which takes only the space and power of a shutoff, and can have the amount set as a "free action" unlike Valves, and has a much faster response than shutoff+valve (that is if you want to emit "0.2 kg packets as long as a green signal is sent" that exactly how it works, unlike shutoff+valve where the shutoff would emit a 10 kg packet, that then gets sent as 50 0.2 kg).

It is possible to adapt the new logic by using a 0.5/0.5 type "clock" signal or by using the Output signal.

But I'm going to suggest there's an another way the reset port could work, that is much more backwards compatible and better serves the actual purpose of this change.

• Live behavior: Set Amount to 0 literally every moment a green signal is being received.
• PT behavior: Set Amount to 0 only when signal changes from red to green.
• Proposed behavior: Set Amount to 0 when a green signal is received only if Amount == Limit

My proposed conditional reset behavior would maintain backwards compatibility, any build which relies on a Meter outputting continuously as long as it receives a green signal will continue to work exactly as it used to.

But it would also have the truly excellent property for supplying Interplanetary Payload Launchers, that no matter how the green signal is turned on and off, you'll always get precise multiples of Limit. So for example if a Conveyor Meter is set to 200 kg, with the Live behavior you might get 201 kg with a brief green signal. With the PT behavior it's quite easy to get exactly 200 kg, but what happens if it takes a while to process that 200 kg, and during that time the signal changes to red then back to green, then the amount is reset to 0 even if limit hasn't been reached, so instead you might get 341.5 kg or some other fairly random amount out.
The only issue I can see with this "Reset to 0 only if Amount == Limit" is that it might make the Conveyor Meters too convenient\*, with the PT behavior if you want to continuously emit, or if you want precise multiplies, you have to use this setup which wires the Output port into an AND gate together with the "please emit" signal:

This exactly reproduces the "reset only if Amount == Limit" behavior. And for me the real question is, when would you actually want to use automation to reset Amount to 0 before reaching Limit? Waiting until limit is reached is just as good for outputting at full throughput. For me with the PT behavior I would always be combining automated Conveyor Meters with an AND gate with no exceptions, because it's foolproof both for "shutoff+valve" behavior, and loading the Interplanetary Payload Launcher without risk of leftovers.

\* A counter-example of "too convenient" is Aquatuners. The Aquatuner is practically always found with a Liquid Pipe Thermo Sensor next to its pipe input. The combination is ubiquitous within the community and the only players not doing it are noobs who don't know about the pattern. In this sense the behavior may as well just be built into the Aquatuner: what advantage does freezing packets have? Well I guess the argument is that it's more fun when the build breaks because you didn't know about the magic pattern, so you have to go to reddit or the klei forums and make the umpteenth post "why are my pipes breaking", and get linked to some "how to plumb your aquatuner" post and thereafter use the simple solved solution. However I think that builds using Conveyor Meters are already complex enough that having the most useful behavior built in would not degrade the fun.

[Kderosa]

4 minutes ago, blakemw said:

* A counter-example of "too convenient" is Aquatuners. The Aquatuner is practically always found with a Liquid Pipe Thermo Sensor next to its pipe input. The combination is ubiquitous within the community and the only players not doing it are noobs who don't know about the pattern. In this sense the behavior may as well just be built into the Aquatuner: what advantage does freezing packets have? Well I guess the argument is that it's more fun when the build breaks because you didn't know about the magic pattern, so you have to go to reddit or the klei forums and make the umpteenth post "why are my pipes breaking", and get linked to some "how to plumb your aquatuner" post and thereafter use the simple solved solution. However I think that builds using Conveyor Meters are already complex enough that having the most useful behavior built in would not degrade the fun.

Amen.  Better yet - just have packets pass right through the AT without cooling if below a setpoint.  This would eliminate all that nonsensical bypass piping too.  There's a good argument that the game should be renamed Bypass Piping and Sensors not included because the game does include some oxygen (but nary a liquid lock, see below).

And while we are at it-  How about an actual buildable liquid lock modelled after the air-lock on the rocket-modules (so the tech clearly exists in the Oni-universe which uses its own physics)  Have it require viscogel (another virtually useless material which you only get way after liquid locks are needed) or naphtha (for a less reliable lock) and plastic (because what most liquid locks need is insulation properties as well.  Substitute plastium for better insulation properties.  Planets should have some POIs that allow you to deconstruct them for a limited amount of these materials for early mid-game use.  Another invention idea: joint plates made with plastic for insulated joint plates for the same reason.   Constructing my eleventy millionth steam room and liquid lock is not as fresh and exciting as it once was, especially since they are difficult to make repairable because of the non-existence of liquid locks (especially insulated ones (and joint plates).

[JRup]

3 hours ago, blakemw said:

if you want precise multiplies, you have to use this setup which wires the Output port into an AND gate together with the "please emit" signal:

I'm already re-fitting the automation wherever I'd used the meters as valves, it does mean rearranging some stuff but not impossible. The meter-valve's output will finally see some love - no need for timers there unless needed in the build. Most if not all will have an application of the arrangement you've shown; this is, in my opinion, the safest way to automate them once the update goes live.

I must add that there is a quirky behavior I've reported as a bug. If one intends to exploit the fact that the green signal will only work once, then there's this. Edit: Bug has been flagged as fixed! Link remains in spoiler for reference. 

Spoiler

 

Now onto other fun stuff.

3 hours ago, blakemw said:

the only players not doing it are noobs who don't know about the pattern

I also use the thermo sensor after a reservoir's output, very niche but valid.

2 hours ago, Kderosa said:

Have it require viscogel (another virtually useless material which you only get way after liquid locks are needed) or naphtha (for a less reliable lock)

Stack mini 2 kg blobs of those two and you got yourself very cheap 2 tile high liquid locks!

2 hours ago, Kderosa said:

insulated joint plates

There are mods for insulated joint plates and automated airlocks, but I'd love to see them as something official from Klei.

Also, 1 tile high doors. Just because!

Edited November 3, 2023 by JRup

[Kderosa]

7 minutes ago, JRup said:

Stack mini 2 kg blobs of those two and you got yourself very cheap 2 tile high liquid locks!

Yes, I'm well aware of the magic of 32 g of naphtha and use it extensively in lieu of the old school three block model.  However, it would be nice to have this made into a proper liquid lock instead of relying on the DIY one material per tile mechanic method.  Also, it's not noob friendly at all. Plus, there's already so much content in the game, it's a bit tedious doing all these make-shift one-blob liquid locks and janky walls builds simply because the game lacks a liquid lock building.

[O.J.Vodka]

When will the 2024 Roadmap be announced？

[asurendra]

15 hours ago, blakemw said:

\* A counter-example of "too convenient" is Aquatuners. The Aquatuner is practically always found with a Liquid Pipe Thermo Sensor next to its pipe input. The combination is ubiquitous within the community and the only players not doing it are noobs who don't know about the pattern. 

I never use thermosensor at input pipe. Why should it be there if you can build it at buffer reservoir output? That allows to control loop temperature up to fractions of a degree...

Edited November 4, 2023 by asurendra

[LadenSwallow]

I have always liked using meter valves with not gates to control a metal volcanoes output through a steam chamber. Many of my conveyor loader builds could require changing. Would it be possible to have the new behaviour act like the advanced toggle on the counter automation building?

[blakemw]

3 hours ago, asurendra said:

I never use thermosensor at input pipe. Why should it be there if you can build it at buffer reservoir output? That allows to control loop temperature up to fractions of a degree...

The short answer is because you don't need a buffer.

Unless you're a madman ranching Delecta Voles there is never a reason to have a "fixed temperature loop", it very rarely provides any gameplay advantage. You can do it because it's personally satisfying but it usually doesn't matter if the packet temperatures in the loop fluctuate.

To be fair, while I usually have a liquid pipe thermo sensor before the liquid input, I don't absolutely always use that pattern, for example for Sauna (the rec building) builds I often just have the Aquatuner automated according to the steam temperature, and I run the coolant loop through "enough" warm area of my base that "I know" the packets will be warm enough when they reach the Aquatuner that I don't have to fear package breaking. Occasionally I've misunderestimated how much heat and thermal mass is available in the looped-through area and got frozen packets, but it works fine if correctly estimated.

HOWEVER, pertinent to the discussion at hand, if the Aquatuner just intelligently passed-through packages too cold to be chilled without freezing, these automation or lack of automation schemes used by you or I would still work just fine, if the Aquatuner had an internal temperature setting so you could tell it "cool packets hotter than X degrees", these automation schemes would still work just fine. That is if the Aquatuner were foolproof it wouldn't be any less useful or flexible in builds.

(I'm not saying the Aquatuner should be foolproof, at this point it's pretty much a beloved hazing ritual for new players, but I do think it'd be better if the Meters are foolproof)

Edited November 4, 2023 by blakemw

[asurendra]

32 minutes ago, blakemw said:

The short answer is because you don't need a buffer.

Unless you're a madman ranching Delecta Voles there is never a reason to have a "fixed temperature loop", it very rarely provides any gameplay advantage. You can do it because it's personally satisfying but it usually doesn't matter if the packet temperatures in the loop fluctuate.

 

Main reason why this scheme is better is that it doesnt suffer from "first packet passing" bug. As there is no reason to connect tuner input and output. 

Also I like to keep strict 2C on my wheat farms. Fail-safe builds are always cool

[VitaCoke]

20 hours ago, Kderosa said:

UPDATE:  Oxylite does not appear to off-gas when in these new storage tiles which is either a bug or very unfortunate for rocket use.

wrong again. it does, but above the tile. so when you build it on the ceiling or as a wall, it is sealed.

[BezKa]

Did anyone manage to get the biobot machine to work? Can't tell what I'm doing wrong, got the germs, got a skilled dupe, steel, but the machine got stuck on 55%

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

9 hours ago, O.J.Vodka said:

When will the 2024 Roadmap be announced？

The roadmap for 2024 is going to be the same as the one currently: there will be continuous updates, with a focus on QoL and story traits.

[JRup]

3 hours ago, blakemw said:

if the Aquatuner just intelligently passed-through packages too cold to be chilled without freezing

That would be a smart AT... Maybe a mod idea, who knows?

I somewhat recently updated my old base's cooling loop, switching the coolant inside the AT from polluted water to super coolant... It's controlled by a liquid thermo-sensor at the output of a liquid reservoir and the thermo-sensor is a fail safe in case the lump o' metal gets too hot. Yup, just 5 packets of SC in the pipe, the rest in the bucket below .

[Gurgel]

10 hours ago, asurendra said:

I never use thermosensor at input pipe. Why should it be there if you can build it at buffer reservoir output? That allows to control loop temperature up to fractions of a degree...

Yep, same here. I do also think I can confidentially state that I am not a "noob" in any way. 

6 hours ago, blakemw said:

The short answer is because you don't need a buffer.

Unless you're a madman ranching Delecta Voles there is never a reason to have a "fixed temperature loop", it very rarely provides any gameplay advantage. 

That is complete nonsense. There are numerous good reasons for a constant temperature loop. There are numerous good reasons for an output buffer in addition to those. One definite "gameplay advantage" is that you do not need to worry about changes on the environment. Constant temperature output falls under "just works" tech. 

Seriously. You are of course free to play any way you want, but crapping all over established, reliable approaches is not acceptable in any way. Stop doing it.  

[Xirema]

Has anyone played with the Rocket Port Extension building? What does it do?

[Kderosa]

1 hour ago, Xirema said:

Has anyone played with the Rocket Port Extension building? What does it do?

They are literally just a one space extender (rocket ports are two spaces wide).  They allow you to connect rocket pads together to share rocket ports.  However, at 200 kg of steel they are effectively the same material cost as a rocket port since you need two of them to equal the same width.  They have no other function. 

So, I'd say their real value is that at one space width they allow you to connect rocket pads if you screwed up the spacing between and don't want to rebuild one of the rocket pads. Otherwise, if you have two spaces to fill just add a rocket port, it might turn out to be needed later in the game.

[O.J.Vodka]

17 hours ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

The roadmap for 2024 is going to be the same as the one currently: there will be continuous updates, with a focus on QoL and story traits.

The past roadmap includes specifics of the updated content:

A few specifics 
Some of the projects we’re working on for the next few updates include:

• Story Traits! The inaugural pair are a gargantuan dream-analyzing machine and a handy critter-mutator. More to come…
• Expanded surface gameplay tools and content!
• QoL improvement! E.g. Expanded database and a searchable build menu for the base game, and improvements to Spaced Out! rocketry. 
• New Room types! We’re thinking: Laboratory, Mission Control Room, better bedrooms…

So, what are the update specifics for 2024？

On 11/4/2023 at 1:49 AM, VitaCoke said:

=) look again

 

But I agree on the 1000 kg. it needs a slider or numbers. you dont wanna have 1000kg of Dry Rations on a single Rocket.

The storage limit for a Storage Tile is 1000kg. After using 100kg, dupes will send 100kg to store it in the Storage Tile. If players do not want to replenish 100kg, how can they avoid generating dupes missions?

Oxylite keeps volatilizing, while dupe keeps storing

Edited November 5, 2023 by O.J.Vodka

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

2 hours ago, O.J.Vodka said:

20 hours ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

The roadmap for 2024 is going to be the same as the one currently: there will be continuous updates, with a focus on QoL and story traits.

The past roadmap includes specifics of the updated content:

Although true, these were more meant as examples. Ultimately the pass year we got quite a bit of content which was not specifically mentioned. I think given the stage of the game, it is indeed wise of the developers not going too much into specifics, allowing them the flexibility to add and change content as they go now. The extra sandbox tool to add in story traits, for example, is a good development as a criticism from the past often was that certain updates would invalidate existing colonies, or make them miss out on new content. This way they show they can react to that. That would be much more difficult with a fixed and rigid roadmap.

 

[pether]

Hey, new update, I didn't expect one so soon, nice surprise!

Critter updates look cute and I can't wait to play with new storage. Yet, the coolest thing is new POI that encourages player to risk an exposure to the germs I never saw in my games because I always dig sporechids away. But... the rewards for it seem poor, one robot that can do very little for a very limited amount of time looks like a wasted potential of cool robot idea and fun germ risk. I would love it being improved...

[O.J.Vodka]

50 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Although true, these were more meant as examples. Ultimately the pass year we got quite a bit of content which was not specifically mentioned. I think given the stage of the game, it is indeed wise of the developers not going too much into specifics, allowing them the flexibility to add and change content as they go now. The extra sandbox tool to add in story traits, for example, is a good development as a criticism from the past often was that certain updates would invalidate existing colonies, or make them miss out on new content. This way they show they can react to that. That would be much more difficult with a fixed and rigid roadmap.

 

Some people give good reviews, and some people give bad reviews. This is normal. There is no game that has only positive reviews and no negative reviews. This has nothing to do with whether there is goal planning

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

4 hours ago, O.J.Vodka said:

Some people give good reviews, and some people give bad reviews. This is normal. There is no game that has only positive reviews and no negative reviews. This has nothing to do with whether there is goal planning

I was not talking about reviews...

[Gadd]

I think there might be an issue in this build where the "non starting duplicants" are never given as an option in the printing pod. I'm not seeing Banhi by random and using DGSM to manually re-roll I'm still never able to get her as an option. Not sure if this is the mod being broken in this update or an issue in the game (since the time to reroll by reloading is very slow and I would need alot more samples) but maybe worth investigating.

(This might ofc also be just an extreme outlier in bad luck when spamming re-roll :))

Edited November 5, 2023 by Gadd

[Alexander Block]

Beta is always glum now. Glum Beta produce less radiation.
They cannot be tamed, they cannot be groomed. I do not know how to make them happy.