Does anyone remember the very popular suggestion made about implementing elevation in game?

[chirsg]

There are a few lost threads. There have been extremely popular suggestions made in game and a few of the concepts seem relatively realistic as mods have proven that the concept can be playable, albeit extremely rudimentary 

One of which being elevation. Doing a search of the forums, I cannot find it, but I do know that it exists. 

The concept was even presented with diagrams and drawings, which made the proposition resemble animal crossing, which I myself don't really hate.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has a link to the ancient thread, or if anyone remembers it. 

I'm surprised no mod authors have had a hand in trying to implement it in game.

The closest thing off the top of my mind that I can recount exists is 3d craftblock which adds the ability to build walls on top of one another and jumping onto them.

 

[bloopah]

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

I'm surprised no mod authors have had a hand in trying to implement it in game.

Because you'd have to change the entire engine to allow the kind of elevation you're talking about. You can't just "add ground that is higher than other ground" without major issues arising.

[l0rdgumby]

3 hours ago, chirsg said:

I'm wondering if anyone has a link to the ancient thread, or if anyone remembers it.

[Maxposting]

I can't believe it has been three years already

[chirsg]

35 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

I can't believe it has been three years already

The kicker is the dude who made the suggestion allegedly got a message from either the CIA, FBI, The CCP or Klei. He wasn't clear, but the message was from an entity of authority regarding the proposition. That's what makes the 3 years hurt all the more. 

 

[Notecja]

Actually... I think is not a dead topic. 

[Mike23Ua]

13 hours ago, bloopah said:

Because you'd have to change the entire engine to allow the kind of elevation you're talking about. You can't just "add ground that is higher than other ground" without major issues arising.

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Klei ALREADY change the game engine? Or if they didn’t do that yet I definitely remember them talking about having plans to do so… I just can’t remember where.

[GreenBowers]

it would certainly be really neat, even if it was just 1 or 2 Z-Levels. 

[The Letter W]

Hmm. First time hearing about this (been out of the loop for a few years, hi again) and I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Sure, it -looks- interesting but reading through the other thread linked here, that's about as far as it goes. Generally games with that kind of mechanic tend to have a fixed camera so it can be catered to in regards to not just appearances, but AI behaviour and even player. Even in Animal Crossing it was just kind of... meh, in my opinion. Other than aesthetics, I don't find it adds to much. With Don't Starve/Together's current design, I feel like you'd have to make hills/mountains so wide and gently sloped they might as well not be there at all.

Really, I think if they were going to do any sort of planes/depth mechanic, it would've been introduced alongside the Caves somehow. That's just my opinion, though.

[Copyafriend]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Klei ALREADY change the game engine? Or if they didn’t do that yet I definitely remember them talking about having plans to do so… I just can’t remember where.

I mean, i’m not trying to be rude here, and i’m assuming you know little but

it’s a pretty big deal to try to change the engine THIS drastically. I mean it affects every game that uses this engine, so rotwood too at a minimum. And you cant just “only change it for don’t starve either, unless they’re going to upkeep two separate versions of the engine for this one feature (possible, but twice as difficult) 

this isn’t even addressing the underlying problems with adding a more functional heightmap. 
 

We’re talking a complete AI and pathfinding rewrite at a MINIMUM, but more realistically, a large portion of the game needs to be redesigned to accommodate this, including the camera as its fixed point design is intended for flat plains and would hang up on any obstructions very easily, the controls of course would need to be altered to accommodate for (likely the entire mouse) the new camera controls. several boss designs WILL break down over uneven terrain, and need to be redone. And we’re not even talking about easy **** like spider webs and tiles textures being different depending on whether it’s on a slope or not, because idk if you’ve ever worked on a game engine, but mesh tearing is a pain.

all that to say

tldr: you can’t just add something as fundamentally different as z levels without massive ramifications. We’re talking a year being a generous lowball.

also crying about unity atm 

[-Variant]

I don't want to knock this, since the idea is fun, and it's something I've personally thought about for years, but I can't find myself expecting it any time soon.
Elevation isn't in the feasible realm of possibility in the sense of everything that follows it.

I don't think there's any genuine constraints stopping Klei from hypothetically adding height to the game... but the sheer amount of things that'd need to be changed to accommodate elevation would be immense.

Here's some examples of things that'd need to be changed that spring to mind:

• Mob pathing. How do mobs react to players on different elevations? How will path finding work?
• General item physics. What happens to items dropped on slopes? Do they slide or remain static?
• Object placement. How will placing objects on slopes work?

And then there's stuff like FX's following the height of entities, rain droplets, world borders, like the ocean. 
Some, maybe most of these could potentially be quick/simple fixes, but they do tend to pile onto each other.

I imagine it's a big investment, you have to consider the effort and the rewards. I don't imagine making the ocean was a simple feat, though the realm potential it had has certainly seem to have made it worth the effort that went into it!
Also not to mention the Rift stuff seems to be taking priority right now.

[Copyafriend]

Just now, -Variant said:

 

This guy gets it

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, -Variant said:

I don't want to knock this, since the idea is fun, and it's something I've personally thought about for years, but I can't find myself expecting it any time soon.
Elevation isn't in the feasible realm of possibility in the sense of everything that follows it.

I don't think there's any genuine constraints stopping Klei from hypothetically adding height to the game... but the sheer amount of things that'd need to be changed to accommodate elevation would be immense.

Here's some examples of things that'd need to be changed that spring to mind:

• Mob pathing. How do mobs react to players on different elevations? How will path finding work?
• General item physics. What happens to items dropped on slopes? Do they slide or remain static?
• Object placement. How will placing objects on slopes work?

And then there's stuff like FX's following the height of entities, rain droplets, world borders, like the ocean. 
Some, maybe most of these could potentially be quick/simple fixes, but they do tend to pile onto each other.

I imagine it's a big investment, you have to consider the effort and the rewards. I don't imagine making the ocean was a simple feat, though the realm potential it had has certainly seem to have made it worth the effort that went into it!
Also not to mention the Rift stuff seems to be taking priority right now.

Your literally describing all the differences that a player would expect when buying idk say Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & then after that game a new Sonic game gets released called Sonic Blast (yeah I’m that old but who cares)

Or Bubsy, & then Bubsy 3D..

DST is a game that’s getting “Free” updates, but I don’t think ANYONE asked for “Free”

I would gladly buy DLC, or a brand new DS 2 or whatever.

But Klei needs to actually put in enough work that’s going to make me feel like buying that DLC or DS Sequel is worth it.

And these are exactly the kind of massive changes I’d expect in buying a new entry into the franchise.

[bloopah]

37 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Your literally describing all the differences that a player would expect when buying idk say Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & then after that game a new Sonic game gets released called Sonic Blast (yeah I’m that old but who cares)

Or Bubsy, & then Bubsy 3D..

DST is a game that’s getting “Free” updates, but I don’t think ANYONE asked for “Free”

I would gladly buy DLC, or a brand new DS 2 or whatever.

But Klei needs to actually put in enough work that’s going to make me feel like buying that DLC or DS Sequel is worth it.

And these are exactly the kind of massive changes I’d expect in buying a new entry into the franchise.

Mike, a sequel to a 2.5D game doesn't have to be 3D for people to think it's worth it.

And do you not know how Bubsy 3D turned out?

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Your literally describing all the differences that a player would expect when buying idk say Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & then after that game a new Sonic game gets released called Sonic Blast (yeah I’m that old but who cares)

Or Bubsy, & then Bubsy 3D..

DST is a game that’s getting “Free” updates, but I don’t think ANYONE asked for “Free”

I would gladly buy DLC, or a brand new DS 2 or whatever.

But Klei needs to actually put in enough work that’s going to make me feel like buying that DLC or DS Sequel is worth it.

And these are exactly the kind of massive changes I’d expect in buying a new entry into the franchise.

*wooosh* 

That's the routine sound we've all come to recognise - The moment the entire point zooms over mikes head

[Antynomity]

Some people think that just because outdated stuff might stop klei from doing something they can't do that said thing when in reality klei has been doing a lot of work to even make rifts possible with how they currently work.

[_zwb]

26 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

Some people think that just because outdated stuff might stop klei from doing something they can't do that said thing when in reality klei has been doing a lot of work to even make rifts possible with how they currently work.

Rifts aren't that complex for a engine side change, the ocean would be a better example, there are quite a lot of changes to the game engine for boat physics etc etc

[user1464576869]

I've been pondering about this for some years, specifically the visual angle of the geometry. The 2D sprites are quite tilted so either there needs to be a lot of magic put into a Stencil Shader of sorts, or a dynamic Vertex shader to displace vertices based on height (which has a chance of looking a little funny as changes to the camera angle would squash the terrain accordingly), or give up and let sprites overlap terrain like Beta caves? I have faith that a shader wizard can solve this since I got close once and I am awful. But it seems to be an unconventional problem to solve, which maybe means a little more cunning/expensive hire for custom things that I haven't seen tried online yet. Not to mention, what about people behind a cliff. Will the game just put the responsibility on the player to spin their camera? Does it matter?

Height affecting combat / interactive contact as well. Granted this one is a bit easier to imagine and probably to implement checks as well, until we arrive at ranged contacts? Can Walter shoot down a cliff? Does shots collide with the walls? Does it collide with the floor if he's not close enough to the edge? This I imagine has to be one of the bigger "needs code"

While most enemies get away with just treating heights like impassable walls to go around, bosses themselves are arguably so high that we'd have to start questioning their AI response to various terrain changes. With exploits as usual to iron out. Though this leads to the possibility of interesting monster designs with height interaction in mind. Which brings me to the next point.
 
As much as I love this for the visual implications, it's a bit rough to justify on gameplay? Now that all depends on so many things, so much speculatives that I don't think it's entirely fair to flat out claim it's not justifiable and leave it. But there's is a possibility this is the case. It could get in the way of navigation, then again it could make navigation more fun in a moment-to-moment basis. The height might feel superficial if there's no gameplay implications beyond it being a 'wall', then again it might bring in a lot of inspiration for special designed objects require a clever approach to heights. But then you're further pushing this game about mostly numbers and knowledge into something combat and skill leaning. But that might be good, maybe we're bored of the plain simulators and the managements and want the act of controlling our characters to be fun in of itself within those long term plans. But then the question is how good are people's depth perception for a task like this?

All and all, I want terrain. But then I realize I also want something close to a whole new DST altogether.

[Wardin25]

16 hours ago, chirsg said:

The kicker is the dude who made the suggestion allegedly got a message from either the CIA, FBI, The CCP or Klei. He wasn't clear, but the message was from an entity of authority regarding the proposition. That's what makes the 3 years hurt all the more. 

 

Care to elaborate???

[chirsg]

19 minutes ago, Wardin25 said:

Care to elaborate???

[Copyafriend]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Or Bubsy, & then Bubsy 3D..

I mean, yeah thats what we’re trying to explain. Its the difference between  a basically two dimensional game (gameplay wise it is 2d, it just has 3d graphics) and a three dimensional game. You can’t just add a third dimension, everything needs to change around this.

we are in fact talking about effort almost equal to making a whole new game. In fact it’s entirely possible that it could require more effort due to the sheer amount of content that needs to be updated.

They may not make another dont starve. And if they did “going 3d” is honestly a weird direction to take an entire games worth lf development, especially since such a drastic change could drive away your fanbase if done poorly.

[jrthekidRS]

I think the biggest problem with this whole idea that nobody is talking about is why? Why would they make such a fundamental change to the game? Nobody plays Don't Starve and says, "It's cool, but it really needs a true third axis." Ideas like these really only makes sense as a mod (which would be cool to see).

[chirsg]

2 hours ago, jrthekidRS said:

I think the biggest problem with this whole idea that nobody is talking about is why? Why would they make such a fundamental change to the game? Nobody plays Don't Starve and says, "It's cool, but it really needs a true third axis." Ideas like these really only makes sense as a mod (which would be cool to see).

You haven't been playing long enough if you haven't sought out a 3rd axis, which one actually does exist.

[gamehun20]

16 minutes ago, chirsg said:

You haven't been playing long enough if you haven't sought out a 3rd axis, which one actually does exist.

Definitely real chess players: we've been playing this game for quite awhile  now I'm really craving a 3rd axis

[lenship2]

12 minutes ago, gamehun20 said:

Definitely real chess players: we've been playing this game for quite awhile  now I'm really craving a 3rd axis

clearly you've never played 3d chess