Why was Woodie/Wormwood nerfed and Wolfgang NOT?

[Digi62BR]

Both Woodie and Wormwood were somewhat weakened but Wolfgang only gained advantages, in addition Wolf's disadvantages were sanity and transformation in the middle of battle, which his skills practically nullify (increase to 150 strong form / + damage in shadows)....
And detail NOBODY complains about it like they complained about Woodie/Wormwood stuff....
So being the favorite character of some is it worth making it strong and others getting weaker?

[Mike23Ua]

Wolfgang’s one of those touchy subjects, people get oddly uptight when you even half suggest reasonable nerfs on him.

I applauded Klei’s decision to remove his movement speed buff but give him other perks to make up for its removal (such as faster harvesting time & no speed penalty while wearing piggy back & marble armor)

HOWEVER Klei let the “give him back his spppppeeeeeeedddd” crowd win- So now not ONLY does he has Speed Buff, but he has all those other buffs that were added to make up for originally REMOVING the Speed Buff.

Meanwhile I’m sitting over here wishing the forums had the confused emote back.

[Dextops]

36 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

HOWEVER Klei let the “give him back his spppppeeeeeeedddd” crowd win- So now not ONLY does he has Speed Buff, but he has all those other buffs that were added to make up for originally REMOVING the Speed Buff.

Except you have to be in normal form giving up all the buffs from mighty form for a measly 10% speed boost when you could’ve just tamed a beefalo

[Mysterious box]

32 minutes ago, Digi62BR said:

Both Woodie and Wormwood were somewhat weakened but Wolfgang only gained advantages, in addition Wolf's disadvantages were sanity and transformation in the middle of battle, which his skills practically nullify (increase to 150 strong form / + damage in shadows)....
And detail NOBODY complains about it like they complained about Woodie/Wormwood stuff....
So being the favorite character of some is it worth making it strong and others getting weaker?

I mean I would argue Woodie was buffed. When the health regen was removed I was more concerned with the fact that his form didn't offer meaningful benefits to fighting bosses as moose when considering it's downsides and lowered damage but stun resistance and the damage being reverted was a fair trade for the lost regen.

As for Wormwood I want to believe his 0 second cd on resetting traps wasn't intentional not because it was too strong but because it didn't make sense for a trap to function like a turret and if you bring more traps the cooldown isn't even noticeable.

 

38 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang’s one of those touchy subjects, people get oddly uptight when you even half suggest reasonable nerfs on him.

As for Wolfgang he's strong yea but that's his identity he doesn't really have anything else going on if we were to even try to hand out nerfs to him where would we put them? If you touch his damage well why even play him? If you touch anything else then no one will care because the rest is fluff.

40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I applauded Klei’s decision to remove his movement speed buff but give him other perks to make up for its removal (such as faster harvesting time & no speed penalty while wearing piggy back & marble armor)

HOWEVER Klei let the “give him back his spppppeeeeeeedddd” crowd win- So now not ONLY does he has Speed Buff, but he has all those other buffs that were added to make up for originally REMOVING the Speed Buff.

Keep in mind the speed boost is only when he's not mighty meaning he can't bring this boost into combat unless you don't care about his damage multiplier.

[Evelo]

Wormwood was nerfed? In what way? I only see buffs. I think he doesn't need any of the skills but Klei is adding them so make them as fun as possible. (Mission partially failed)

[goatt]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang’s one of those touchy subjects

maybe chinese community will get mad? I think they like wolfgang the best?

[july401]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

maybe chinese community will get mad? I think they like wolfgang the best?

No, they don't

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

maybe chinese community will get mad? I think they like wolfgang the best?

I don't think so...they complain about Wolfgang &Wanda being overpowered just as much.

[Sapientis]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

maybe chinese community will get mad? I think they like wolfgang the best?

China's Wendy & Wigfrid gang. Always has been. 

And tbh these 2 are probably most fun and easy characters

[Mike23Ua]

Poor Winona.. 

[gamehun20]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Poor Winona.. 

Winona is not even the lowest

[july401]

Just now, gamehun20 said:

Winona is not even the lowest

Then who?  Warly?

[gamehun20]

1 minute ago, july401 said:

Then who?  Warly?

Wes

[Fufuji]

30 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

China's Wendy & Wigfrid gang. Always has been. 

And tbh these 2 are probably most fun and easy characters

This website had been bugged for about one year or so. Last time it's still functional I remembered it was Wendy, Wilson and Wigfrid ranked highest.

3 hours ago, goatt said:

maybe chinese community will get mad? I think they like wolfgang the best?

No actually. They are mostly mad at Wolfgang being too powerful.

[Dragonboooorn]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang’s one of those touchy subjects, people get oddly uptight when you even half suggest reasonable nerfs on him

"reasonable"

I too wish we had confusion emote back

Lets be real for a sec, almost all of the existing survivor cast can be considered OP at some point, some dont even have a downside or now can counter said downside at some point, basicly becoming Wilson but actually fun, better and with unique mechanics. Wendy dont have a downside, WInona dont have downside... Even Wigfrid for some reason, eats volt goat jelly and other sweet stuffs cuz she can despite her "meats only" persona. Plus dont forget mentioned characters will receive skill trees too, making them even MORE strong. But the only OP guy here is Wolfgang, sure

[IAmAFurrz]

8 hours ago, Digi62BR said:

Both Woodie and Wormwood were somewhat weakened but Wolfgang only gained advantages, in addition Wolf's disadvantages were sanity and transformation in the middle of battle, which his skills practically nullify (increase to 150 strong form / + damage in shadows)....
And detail NOBODY complains about it like they complained about Woodie/Wormwood stuff....
So being the favorite character of some is it worth making it strong and others getting weaker?

Because this is klei and they will leave wolfgang as the worst designed character until the end of time

[abrocator]

This update buffs all of these characters, especially Woodie. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Are you perhaps referring to one of the inter-beta updates which nerfed things like the health regeneration? If so that’s irrelevant since health regeneration was introduced in the beta.

[Cassielu]

Wolfgang has always been that way, he was absurdly supposed to be good at *all* power themed things and the *whole* combat system, which is working multiplier, damage multiplier, speed, ranged aoe attacks and magic. 

It's weird that when I say that some character lacks combat ability, someone jumps up and says "he's not a combat character and shouldn't be good at every aspect of the game", but not when Wolfgang is better at chopping and mining than Woodie (and Maxwell at that time).

As if no one cares that combat is the most universal solution, the only path to the ultimate solution, and the only way we can unlock new content. Rift and best seasonal protective equipment doesn't grow on farms.

25 minutes ago, abrocator said:

especially Woodie

Until now, Wolfgang cost 3 insight points is still a better Lumberjack and Miner than Woodie costing the same insight point if you don't master Werebeaver.

[abrocator]

48 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Until now, Wolfgang cost 3 insight points is still a better Lumberjack and Miner than Woodie costing the same insight point if you don't master Werebeaver.

I would be completely fine with the devs just getting rid of all his non-combat “might” perks like mining, rowing, and hoisting sails. IMO there is too much focus on “realism” (dumbells sigh) like, oh he is strong so obviously he must mine better. No: gameplay design trumps supposed realism.

[Notecja]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Poor Winona.. 

Yes, but now I am hopeful that she will get a skill tree that will fix her. * ^ *

[Theukon-dos]

To actually answer OP's question, the problem wasn't that Weremoose was too strong, the problem was that Weremoose was strong too early.

 

Wolfgang did get buffed yes, simply because Klei decided to give skill trees to everyone despite the fact that the characters where balanced around not having skill trees, twice. Technically Thrice in Wolfgang's case. However, he still requires setup. He deals a lot of damage, but he still needs a weapon to deal that damage with, armor to prevent him from taking more damage than he's doing, healing items to revert any damage he does take, light if he wants to fight in a dark area, and quite likely a speed boost depending on what he's fighting. Sure, Wolfgang could go fight a boss with nothing but an a spear and a dream, but it probably wouldn't end well for him. 

 

Woodie, meanwhile, is overall weaker than Wolfgang at max power. But doesn't have any of the setup. The Weremoose skill tree lets him access healing, darksword-tier damage, Dreadstone-tier armor, a speed boost, and night vision. All for a single idol that costs less than a dollar store candy bar. It is a lot of power for extremely low cost that not even Wolfgang or Wigfrid could achive. And the only real limitation of it being how Weremoose can't use any items.

Now, that being said, I don't think this is actually a big issue in the here and now. Simply because there aren't that many options for Woodie to bully. Most bosses in DST have some sort of time gate, such as Deerclops, or Klaus. Or require some other item to fight that Weremoose can't use, such as Bee Queen needing a pan flute or Toadstool needing; ironically; an Axe. 

But that being said, while it may not be a problem now, it would still be a massive Moose-shaped obilesk that could very easilly get in the way of Klei's future plans. If Klei where to, say, rework an existing boss to be less dependent on specific items, or add a new boss that could be beaten just by caving it's skull in, then suddenly Woodie has those options, and risks becoming overbearing due to an unmatched ability to get extremely powerful items extremely early on. 

[Wonz]

How about this? Against shadows his damage would look like this.
0.5x if mighty.
0.75x if normal.
1.5x if wimpy.

No more might gain against shadows. 

He would have to fight fuelweaver as wimpy wolfgang.

Faster sanity drain doesn't really cut it as disadvantage since currently he deals double damage to shadows so he leaves insane state without food faster than anyone.  

[NoKrampusSack]

13 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

HOWEVER Klei let the “give him back his spppppeeeeeeedddd” crowd win- So now not ONLY does he has Speed Buff, but he has all those other buffs that were added to make up for originally REMOVING the Speed Buff.

 

you say this as if that specific skill tree doesnt reek of spite. this is kleis way of telling those people to shut up

[firoborn]

3 hours ago, Cassielu said:

It's weird that when I say that some character lacks combat ability, someone jumps up and says "he's not a combat character and shouldn't be good at every aspect of the game", but not when Wolfgang is better at chopping and mining than Woodie (and Maxwell at that time).

All of the non combat perks you are complaining about where the forums ideas.

[ZeRoboButler]

I have a hard time looking at these changes as nerfs since they are not on the live branch yet, (feels better to call them adjustments) whole point really is to have people experience it as a form of testing and appealing to those who want to see the plans for new content early. 

On the topic of characters, Woodie is a better character overall after the changes although there are some places that could be improved.

Wormwood is in a strange spot because they seem to really like the idea of him having some unique crafts, but in reality most of the original green thumb tab stuff is probably more interesting and useful, not to mention how underwhelming the lunar mob generation is. The butterfly perk serves no purpose, the seed perk is nice but probably should have been combined into the other farming perk, and the carrats are largely unnecessary in every situation aside from smashing large crops. They improved the life span of the light bugs but, the cost of hp for light is largely unnecessary, and the salamanders are basically pre-rework maxwell shadows.

I guess to put it simply, Wormwoods tree is probably the least impactful with only a few perks changing much of anything.

Wolfgang, I should like to think, is a simple character with one thing in mind, hit stuff and hit it hard. That said, if this is the philosophy for the whole characters design, why would you take that away? I should like to think that part of the reason wolfgang was amongst the first three to get skill trees is because the new content had imposed a sort identity crisis, if the character who is designed to do dmg isn't doing it, well it just makes sense that they would do something to correct or improve that situation.

I think the only reason wanda isn't included with the first three here is she could be considered similar if not worse off with some of this content, (due to the fact she doesn't achieve the same dmg against the new content as well) It is far easier to make a skill tree for someone like wolfgang, and then try to do something more elaborate like wanda.

Too long, didn't read - wolfgang is supposed to do dmg, why would you nerf that if its the basis of his character?(unless of course, you are suggesting a nerf to some other part of the kit)