Regarding the next update

[-Variant]

After a lot of discussion over the current on-going beta, I had a few folks bring up something I hadn't thought about yet.

What is next?

My biggest concern with the current choice to go after skill-trees was just how long it'd take, personal bias aside. Reworks took eons, and while the trees might not take as much time to do, there's still a lot of work and characters to manage.
This got me questioning what is coming after this beta wraps up.

Are more character updates to follow, or that 3rd and final piece to the From Beyond arc? Is that coming next now that the 'main 3' were finally addressed as Klei had noted or will they want to finish up all the trees before hitting us with that supposed big last update?

I've been trying to imagine a reasonable way to go about it but I think all I can come up with are sort of awkward. It's weird to start character changes in the middle of this arc and it'd be just as weird to start it, pause to finish the arc, and then resume it. I'm not sure which way they plan on going.

I'm curious on others thoughts about which way they'd want to see this handled. 

[Scrimbles]

I really dislike the inclusion of skill trees, so the thought of them getting in the way of updates that will make the rift content worth playing is disheartening.

[Dr. Safety]

I just assumed it was gonna progress like the Return of Them + Reworks did. I know the general consensus was that the last few updates felt rushed, and the skill trees seem like a comparatively easier thing to develop so that the team could consistently give us new content while still having a longer period to work on the new arc updates. I could be wrong but that's just what I figured.

[Theukon-dos]

See, I don't think that these skill tree updates are going to get in the way the rift updates. Instead, I think they're purposefully here to slow them down. Now that I say that out loud it sounds contradictory, so let me explain. 

 

Prior to the rift updates we had the character refreshes. And while they did take forever to come out, they also had the important job of giving Klei more time to develop updates. Instead of needing to push out a big content update every month, Klei could instead push out a big update one month, and then a character update the next. These, realistically, would have taken a lot less development time and resources due to the inherently smaller scope. And thus, gave Klei more time to develop the next big update. 

 

And while I'm sure everyone here is familiar with my opinions on skill trees, I don't think that there's any debate that by Charlie's bodacious bosom, Klei needs that extra time. These recent updates have been generally rushed and highly controversial because of it. And while it's hard to say what more dev time could have changed, but just as some examples, perhaps Klei could have:

Implemented more Lunar-Rift enemies too make Brightshade spawns less oppressive.

Improved Lunar Rift spawning mechanics to not have destroyed bases in the first place.

Introduced more toys the shadow plinth tab to be closer to the brightshade smithy. 

Realized that Planar Damage doesn't work on a conceptual level

 

All that is to say: I have high hopes for the next update. Because whatever Klei's cooking is going to be a nice, slow roast instead of being char-broiled at 800 degrees for 10 minutes. Ofcourse, I also had high hopes for the alignment system. And instead I got a skill tree, because again, while I think Klei needs the extra breathing room, I still don't like them, and think there are much better ways they could have spread the updates out. Such as, for example, swallowing their pride and just aiming for 6 updates a year instead of 12. But I digress.

 

 

[ADM]

Yeah that's the concerning part, felt like we were close then boom. But in a way I suppose there could be a positive effect out of this, or two if you consider Skillsets to be (now) required for characters to be all doing a thing with the "taking side" (if affinity does something extra) instead of privatizing it for a group of 4 for who knows how long.

The other most expectable positive outcome of having Skillsets updates before the third From Beyond update would be to continue its development as the other updates are for sure simpler to roll so the team could be sugarcoating it for release.

The feelings of "planar damage and defense to be meaningless" and the powercreeping that continue to live on, which are fairly receivable feedbacks in the current state of the game, cannot be solved effectively if they are to do all what follows the rift stuff every 1-2 months and in the end require 5 more updates like RoT or AnR (plus without QoLing all characters as I personally like the addition of Skillsets to solve long time suggestions on each survivors (+ funky things in the way)), like if the whole content from Terraria hardmode were to be added so soon would be impossible, of course I don’t expect this to be near as comparable to it but to give you an image.

So maybe after all that we will be getting a picture bigger than anyone might have expected like a dozen late game mobs and maybe more than a singular boss on both sides to make planar evolution justified with the current little amount of variety in the items. And hopefully non-combat sided feature to be sprinkled too because there are still outstanding problems in the game evolution I would like to see addressed, like storages to name only one.

I’m not hyping myself without further notice but I could see this end well being someone who also wants a harder game past some point but there is so many ways to fail to do so correctly.

[-Variant]

46 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

See, I don't think that these skill tree updates are going to get in the way the rift updates. Instead, I think they're purposefully here to slow them down. Now that I say that out loud it sounds contradictory, so let me explain. 

I think this'd be the most favorable outcome with what we've currently got.

I'm still ultimately weary, even if the re-refreshes are less costly than the major updates I still feel like they could've done without them and waited to put all their effort into the ultimatum. 

13 minutes ago, ADM said:

Yeah that's the concerning part, felt like we were close then boom. But in a way I suppose there could be a positive effect out of this, or two if you consider Skillsets to be (now) required for characters to be all doing a thing with the "taking side" (if affinity does something extra) instead of privatizing it for a group of 4 for who knows how long.

I dunno, this feels icky to me! We either wait doubly longer for the trees to finish rolling out, or they drop the final update with only 4 characters having the perks. 
I'm still very surprised they didn't make characters able to align with the specific alignment bonuses Wilson had over the entire trees.
I figured this is what they had meant when they said that picking alignments would be different than Wilsons.

[HowlVoid]

I agree skill trees may be to tie us over until the next big update. 

After all we learned that releasing a big updates in pieces leaves more questions than answers regarding where the content is heading.

There was a lot of backlash regarding planar damage with nothing to use it on. If anything this could be a good thing in regards to how content is consumed.

[Evelo]

I am concerned because I dislike skill trees. I was perfectly fine with stagging out the From Beyond updates, sadly seems other players disagree. I would sacrifice so much just to know what is going on. on klei's end and their development philosophy. Having heard nothing from to that end crushes me to my more. Though at least for me and the tiny minority that agree with me, it all ties into the dislike of the Celestial Portal. Does klei want players, especially the solo players to abuse it is that the intention for these stuff?

[goatt]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

See, I don't think that these skill tree updates are going to get in the way the rift updates. Instead, I think they're purposefully here to slow them down. Now that I say that out loud it sounds contradictory, so let me explain.

You are contradictory.

According to you, "Klei needs that extra time", Klei doesn't have enough time. Yet, you are ok with them squeezing more stuff into the already tight timeframe, lowering both delivery speed and quality, which is also according to you.

You really need to think twice on your own opinions. I understand you like both rift update and skill tree update, that's why you feel ok. But it doesn't change the fact that Klei doesn't have enough time, yet, they are adding more stuff.

(I'm only pointing out what's in your post, I personally don't think skill tree is a distraction anymore. I'm ok with skill tree update. I'm just pointing out the contradictions)

[Theukon-dos]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

You are contradictory.

According to you, "Klei needs that extra time", Klei doesn't have enough time. Yet, you are ok with them squeezing more stuff into the already tight timeframe, lowering both delivery speed and quality, which is also according to you.

You really need to think twice on your own opinions. I understand you like both rift update and skill tree update, that's why you feel ok. But it doesn't change the fact that Klei doesn't have enough time, yet, they are adding more stuff.

(I'm only pointing out what's in your post, I personally don't think skill tree is a distraction anymore. I'm ok with skill tree update. I'm just pointing out the contradictions)

I... don't like either the rift or the skill tree updates? I mean "ruining" the game for me, atleast not yet. The most positive thing I can say about these updates is that skill trees are overall a net positive soley because it means good things for characters like Woodie.

 

As for your actual point though, I can firmly state that I am not being contradictory because yes, it is more work. But it's also being done over a much larger period of time relative to the extra work being added. 

 

If developing these skill trees in batches of three takes less time to make a major update, which it likely does do to needing comparatively few assets, animations, and the like compared to the rift updates. But it's still being released as part of Klei's monthy major update quota. Then that's more time too develop the next major update instead. Think of it this way, If the first two updates in the From Beyond arc had development times of 1 month. Then this skill tree update might only have a relative development time of half a month. This means that the NEXT update will have a comparative development time of 1 and a half months, and thus it gets more time despite more work being done. "Filler" is the word I would use to describe this update for a reason after all.

[goatt]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

I... don't like either the rift or the skill tree updates? I mean "ruining" the game for me, atleast not yet. The most positive thing I can say about these updates is that skill trees are overall a net positive soley because it means good things for characters like Woodie.

 

As for your actual point though, I can firmly state that I am not being contradictory because yes, it is more work. But it's also being done over a much larger period of time relative to the extra work being added. 

 

If developing these skill trees in batches of three takes less time to make a major update, which it likely does do to needing comparatively few assets, animations, and the like compared to the rift updates. But it's still being released as part of Klei's monthy major update quota. Then that's more time too develop the next major update instead. Think of it this way, If the first two updates in the From Beyond arc had development times of 1 month. Then this skill tree update might only have a relative development time of half a month. This means that the NEXT update will have a comparative development time of 1 and a half months, and thus it gets more time despite more work being done. "Filler" is the word I would use to describe this update for a reason after all.

I see, that makes sense now. I misunderstood you. My bad.

But honestly, their delivery time shouldn't be 2-month based. If it takes longer, then use more time. 3 months is fine. 

[Szczuku]

Yeah, like others have said: skill trees will act as a filler so Klei has more time to work on a content update.

However, if Klei came up with this idea only after seeing the Taking Root's release state, then I've gotta say: their planning skills are absolutely abysmal. Like, what are you gonna do once all skill trees are done? The devs need to start preparing to move into a 'updates once every 3 months' workflow. Clearly they can't make good updates once a month, without a buffer; but at the same time making up small changes just to fill in the update gaps and give yourself more time isn't a good solution either.

Plus this type of workflow negatively impacts our experience. I was hoping that we'd get the 'polishing the rifts' update right now, so that I could enjoy a polished gameplay throughout the summer. But instead now I'll have to wait untill Klei does who knows how many skill trees. And there's really no point in playing as other characters, to pass the time, as untill they get a skill tree you'd be just wasting your time, as clearly skill trees are meant to be used throughout the entire playthrough, not just the endgame phase. So why reach 500 days in a world as Webber, if i'll 'have to' start a new world anyway, once he gets his tree.

Conclusion: the next half a year will be a tedious period of monthly-sized updates and skill trees

[abrocator]

10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

All that is to say: I have high hopes for the next update. Because whatever Klei's cooking is going to be a nice, slow roast instead of being char-broiled at 800 degrees for 10 minutes.

Are you a writer? Because you write good.

[Jakepeng99]

10 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I really dislike the inclusion of skill trees, so the thought of them getting in the way of updates that will make the rift content worth playing is disheartening.

Praying rn for them to incorperate, or try to test incorperating flipsides. 

Also i think they should have one new skill tree along side new content, or have a few in the qol betas.

[Ardyn]

Some people believe that adding skill trees to characters can bring more content to players during the update interval. But compared to skill trees, there is still a lot of content worth updating in DST.

For example, it is more important to redo a portion of the heavily criticized bosses, just like redoing an ancient guardian, or redoing some failed ecological mechanisms, than adding skill trees. Adding skill trees to a character, once started, basically means adding skill trees to all characters, which will waste a lot of energy.

I acknowledge that some of the roles have flawed mechanisms and will need to be modified in future updates. However, this does not necessarily need to be achieved in the form of skill trees, as most characters are already perfect enough, and perhaps only adjustments need to be made to these flawed characters in one update. Adding skill trees to all 18 characters can easily lead to a new round of character design issues and is likely to result in another round of character refreshes - that would be a disaster.

[chirsg]

Damn dude. People hate the skill trees. The very first beta where I am having legitimate fun, and of course, it's the unpopular opinion.

Rock falls on your crockpot and players are glad this happens. Woodie actually in contention for an incredibly viable endgame character, and somehow, it's heresy.

Yes. I should have known. Anything I like, is doomed to be hated by everyone else.

 

 

[Jakepeng99]

57 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Damn dude. People hate the skill trees. The very first beta where I am having legitimate fun, and of course, it's the unpopular opinion.

Rock falls on your crockpot and players are glad this happens. Woodie actually in contention for an incredibly viable endgame character, and somehow, it's heresy.

Yes. I should have known. Anything I like, is doomed to be hated by everyone else.

 

 

Your the majority i don't know what you are meaning, look at the polls.

[NoKrampusSack]

Gonna assume its either going to be included with the rift updates or its gonna be its own thing inbetween

or maybe they just do em instead of rifts for a while

[HowlVoid]

9 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Yeah, like others have said: skill trees will act as a filler so Klei has more time to work on a content update.

However, if Klei came up with this idea only after seeing the Taking Root's release state, then I've gotta say: their planning skills are absolutely abysmal. Like, what are you gonna do once all skill trees are done? The devs need to start preparing to move into a 'updates once every 3 months' workflow. Clearly they can't make good updates once a month, without a buffer; but at the same time making up small changes just to fill in the update gaps and give yourself more time isn't a good solution either.

Plus this type of workflow negatively impacts our experience. I was hoping that we'd get the 'polishing the rifts' update right now, so that I could enjoy a polished gameplay throughout the summer. But instead now I'll have to wait untill Klei does who knows how many skill trees. And there's really no point in playing as other characters, to pass the time, as untill they get a skill tree you'd be just wasting your time, as clearly skill trees are meant to be used throughout the entire playthrough, not just the endgame phase. So why reach 500 days in a world as Webber, if i'll 'have to' start a new world anyway, once he gets his tree.

Conclusion: the next half a year will be a tedious period of monthly-sized updates and skill trees

This has been planned since before the Wilson rework. They teased it but you'd only know if you were in on it.

They stated they were working on ways to help guide players "like" Wilson's skll tree. Someone posted the quote somewhere on here. I worded it badly, but my memory not too good sometimes.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, chirsg said:

Damn dude. People hate the skill trees. The very first beta where I am having legitimate fun, and of course, it's the unpopular opinion.

Rock falls on your crockpot and players are glad this happens. Woodie actually in contention for an incredibly viable endgame character, and somehow, it's heresy.

Yes. I should have known. Anything I like, is doomed to be hated by everyone else.

 

 

Nobody liked boulders falling on your crock pot. Nobody with good opinions atleast. This was literally removed because of how unpopular it was.