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Why aren't there any characters that want to be on the ocean?


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Yes, I put this in the wrong forums at first. But it's fixed now, alright?

So I've been thinking about DST's ocean a lot recently, and how it still has the same problems that it's had for the last 3 years. But in this pondering, I realized something really weird.

 

As a whole, none of the characters really want to go onto the ocean. It's not entirely absent. Wicker, Wigfrid, Warly, and Webber all have minor crafts that are related to the ocean or lunar island in some way, and Wurt gets close between needing Kelp for a lot of her kit and ocean fish being her best source of gold.

But overall, most characters don't really benefit from going out to sea at all. And this strikes me as odd. Ocean development and Character additions/refreshes lined up almost perfectly on a time scale; Return of Them entered public beta only 2 months after Winona's refresh and Wortox's release; putting it before Wormwood, Warly, and the like. So giving characters ocean-themed perks feels like it would have made a lot of sense; both to tie into the recently released conent. And becuase I think it would have gone a good way to fix the problems with the ocean. I won't go into detail here, but to put simply, the ocean's in a bad spot because most of it's content is either self-refferential or fails to be impactful in a way that's meaningful enough to compete with the tried and true resources and items that have been on the mainland for years. 

And while you certainly could argue that this wasn't the case because the ocean was just too young too have anything meaningful for new characters to benefit from, Return of Them ended well before the character refreshes did. and the only content it's seen sense then has been Waterlogged and Curse of the Moon Quey, which is... well it's kind of sad, but it also means there would have been a good amount to work with. Well, relatively speaking atleast. But then, how could different characters have benefited from the ocean?

 

Wormwood's a child of the moon, but doesn't really have any interaction with the Lunar Island. In fact, he generally has some anti-synergy with the lunar island sense he's so good at keeping his sanity up. 

Woodie's curse is tied to the moon; and the canon reason for his refresh is because of the increasing influence of the moon making the curse stronger. So then why doesn't he have ANYTHING to do with the lunar island? In this case, Woodie's biggest problem post-refresh is that his transformations are good in the early game, but don't scale well as the game progresses. So having upgrades to his transformations be available through the lunar island would have been a great way to make Woodie scale better.

Wendy I could see having a few Ghostly Elixers use ingredients from the ocean. Salt in particular is often associated with spirits and ghosts; particularly as a ward against them, but who cares? 

Walter I think would have VERY much benefited from his top-tier round being from the lunar island instead of the ruins. Walter is generally considered a "new player" character. So having his progression guide said players to an out of the way; but still fairly safe zone as opposed to the single most dangerous area in the game would be a smart choice. Plus, Moon Glass is much more plentiful/easier to farm than the Thulecite or Marble he currently burns through. So that being used for his best rounds would have also helped with the slingshot costing an arm and a leg to use. 

WX has the chorusbox circuit. But I bring them up because they really, really like the moon. So WX not having a lunar-based circuit honestly just feels like a crime.

 

As a closer, I do think that this is more a missed opportunity than anything. Or perhaps it's a testament to how little the ocean really has going on after 3 years of development. (the fact that most of my ideas tied into lunar specifically sure is). And hey, maybe if we get any new characters in the future, they'll be sailing focused and make my entire point mute! Ah, a man can dream, huh? But regardless, if any characters get a mini-refresh like Wortox and Wormwood did, then that would be a great opportunity to revisit the ocean and maybe integrate it into their kit a bit more. 

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1 hour ago, Ardcrumb said:

Wormwood does technically need bottles for his plant crack as my friend calls it

Ah. That is something. I'll admit. But not much either.

18 minutes ago, Juanasdf said:

My boy wes with his inflatable vest being forgotten smh

To be fair, that's not Wes benefiting from the ocean, just making it slightly less dangerous. 

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Generally speaking the ocean related perks are tiny because the ocean is not  that game changing, compared to some other activities, such as rushing or exploiting the ruins.
The ocean is currently more of a stepping stone for boss fighting, which is a shame.

I’d be interested to have sea adventures, find profitable sea treasures (current sunken chests loot table is not worth the trouble) and make game changing trade with ocean NPC’s, to a point where someone who is hyper focused into rushing ocean content will have as many gameplay benefits than someone who goes the ruins rush way.
 

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4 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

The ocean is currently more of a stepping stone for boss fighting, which is a shame.

For me it's more like natural obstacle.

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because Klei won’t Add Walani that’s Why.. :wilson_cry::lol:

I think Woodlegs also would be good here. He even has some potential lore.

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There are generic benefits from visiting ocean though: salt for salt boxes, knobby tree nuts, sunfish (even as non-Wurt it's useful for short trips, for doing stuff at base and for raising temperature before using insulation (like beard) - it lasts more than thermal stone), empty bottles, resources of monkey island (cannons, docks, monkey tails, banana bushes, palmcone trees), resources of lunar island (kelp, anenemies, stone fruits), for multiplayer endless servers kelp stalks from ocean itself are also desirable since lunar island and Pearl island supply can be too little for multiple bases.

I myself usually build boat (I'd even call it boat base since it's equipped for sailing in all seasons and has basic food processing structures) and sail a lot, incuding doing CC quest line and doing side stuff mentioned above; I find it interesting concept to be unable to get certain resources and have abundance of others, to face lack of food, but be able to bring some food refining structures wherever I go and minmax dishes (I have crock pot, drying rack and bird cage on boat usually); I like how certain dishes like barnacle ones make one want to cook them on spot and consume right away, to keep ingredients ready instead of cooking everything into final dish and keeping it in backpack/bundle wrap. Another benefit of boat on public server is to be safe place to disconnect: safe for one's supplies, for rejoining in another season and be able to change equipment right away, safe from intentional or accidental griefing - saves me headache because of randoms leading deerclops/bearger through whatever location normal base can be at.

I wouldn't mind extra content for ocean though, because vast majority of it still feels empty. Even if it's not tropical ocean of SW but rocky ocean of DST that doesn't mean most of it should be sea stacks, random ocenan debris and occasional fish schools that are not even inticing to catch. Sea weeds while technically being another benefit are too far usually, too clunky to navigate between and make use of them, and for relocation there often are no convenient spots relatively close to shore. If player could make sea stacks themselves it could be another matter, even if only in medium and rough ocean (we have docks that could go all the way to medium ocean after all). Rockjaws while technically are a good threat don't have worthwhile loot: 4 raw fish for all the trouble of most likely tanking some hits is not worth it, and even with beefalo tanking (ornery or default with war saddle + CC crown allow to kill shark before it looses interest) it's still not worth it because of time it takes to fight. Sunken chests while being good concept have too little limit per map (only 4 at a time could be present) and majority of loot outcomes is worthless (those with boat patches are extra worthless because Klei nerfed them in one of the updates to account for cheaper recipe, but now they are unusable as boat healing in Crab King fight, for example). There is another type of debris that could be caught with fishing rod/winched, but aside from tiny chance to get kelp stalk or spork loot table is garbage, which makes it not worth to stop boat for in general. Ocean storage options need update badly, considering all the loot player can get and tiny space available for building/dropping (in latter case it's unplayable without ground chest mod (client, but still)). Pirate raids needed refresh right when they came from beta, and latest stealth hotfixes before Winter's Feast only made them worse to the point that I disable them - the only other mechanic that was that bad was desease, and I don't even loose content that way at all. I wish there were more sea-themed dishes like caviar from roy and fish recipes that reward player for catching different types of fish/obtaining different types of sea-exclusive resources, as well as those that insentivise player to bring supply of mainland-specific resource (fig frogwich would be an example if it was actually worth cooking).

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56 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

On the one hand I would like more stuff, but it’s also the last place I’d like it exist.

that's probably a result of ptsd: post-terrible sea disorder

jokes aside, if there was more stuff in the ocean then there would probably not be such a negative reception considering the bad reception comes from the lack of stuff and crab king

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19 minutes ago, bloopah said:

that's probably a result of ptsd: post-terrible sea disorder

jokes aside, if there was more stuff in the ocean then there would probably not be such a negative reception considering the bad reception comes from the lack of stuff and crab king

I’d argue that it has a lot, but most of what’s there is low utility gimmicks, like the whale just feels like nothing because why interact with it, certainly not using that low feedback, nonsensically designed fishing rod to give it anything.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Why does everybody want every biome and place to be cluttered with stuff? The ocean has things to it. Surely there is potential for more content in the sea but it is quite fine to traverse and explore as it is.

It really really isn’t. I’ve said this before but a problem with ocean content is that 99% of the content is cluttered into a few specific locations (such as moon quay and lunar island) and the remaining 1% is seaweed and rocks. Having this content only concentrated in a few spots makes the ocean few bare no matter how much content they add. So even if on paper the oceans have a lot of content, the way it’s designed results in long stretches of nothing in between and if that were to be filled up with a little bit of something it’d add a lot of life to the oceans as a whole.

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25 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Why does everybody want every biome and place to be cluttered with stuff? The ocean has things to it. Surely there is potential for more content in the sea but it is quite fine to traverse and explore as it is.

Because I like stuff and don’t want to waste time not getting it. Building structures is what brings me joy.

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22 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Generally speaking the ocean related perks are tiny because the ocean is not  that game changing, compared to some other activities, such as rushing or exploiting the ruins.
The ocean is currently more of a stepping stone for boss fighting, which is a shame.

I’d be interested to have sea adventures, find profitable sea treasures (current sunken chests loot table is not worth the trouble) and make game changing trade with ocean NPC’s, to a point where someone who is hyper focused into rushing ocean content will have as many gameplay benefits than someone who goes the ruins rush way.
 

I mean yeah, but that's why I think the ocean perks should be big, so the ocean IS game changing. Atleast for those guys.

14 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

There are generic benefits from visiting ocean though: salt for salt boxes, knobby tree nuts, sunfish (even as non-Wurt it's useful for short trips, for doing stuff at base and for raising temperature before using insulation (like beard) - it lasts more than thermal stone), empty bottles, resources of monkey island (cannons, docks, monkey tails, banana bushes, palmcone trees), resources of lunar island (kelp, anenemies, stone fruits), for multiplayer endless servers kelp stalks from ocean itself are also desirable since lunar island and Pearl island supply can be too little for multiple bases.

Thing is though, most of those items are either niche or have some caviat attached to them that makes using them impractical. Salt boxes are good, but can only store raw ingredients. Knobby Knuts are great for summer, but only if you build your base around the shoreline. And Summer/Winter fish are nice, but you can't really bring them anywhere, meaning their job is done just as well with a campfire or endothermic fire.  Meanwhile, the Moon Quey is incredibly difficult to find if you're looking for it, and the lunar island is too easy to find due to how the land generates, meaning most people will just blitz straight there making the "Island" aspect almost completely irrelevant. 

14 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I myself usually build boat (I'd even call it boat base since it's equipped for sailing in all seasons and has basic food processing structures) and sail a lot, incuding doing CC quest line and doing side stuff mentioned above; I find it interesting concept to be unable to get certain resources and have abundance of others, to face lack of food, but be able to bring some food refining structures wherever I go and minmax dishes (I have crock pot, drying rack and bird cage on boat usually); I like how certain dishes like barnacle ones make one want to cook them on spot and consume right away, to keep ingredients ready instead of cooking everything into final dish and keeping it in backpack/bundle wrap. Another benefit of boat on public server is to be safe place to disconnect: safe for one's supplies, for rejoining in another season and be able to change equipment right away, safe from intentional or accidental griefing - saves me headache because of randoms leading deerclops/bearger through whatever location normal base can be at.

I build a campfire and maybe a tin fishin' bin and call it a day. 

14 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I wouldn't mind extra content for ocean though, because vast majority of it still feels empty. Even if it's not tropical ocean of SW but rocky ocean of DST that doesn't mean most of it should be sea stacks, random ocenan debris and occasional fish schools that are not even inticing to catch. Sea weeds while technically being another benefit are too far usually, too clunky to navigate between and make use of them, and for relocation there often are no convenient spots relatively close to shore. If player could make sea stacks themselves it could be another matter, even if only in medium and rough ocean (we have docks that could go all the way to medium ocean after all). Rockjaws while technically are a good threat don't have worthwhile loot: 4 raw fish for all the trouble of most likely tanking some hits is not worth it, and even with beefalo tanking (ornery or default with war saddle + CC crown allow to kill shark before it looses interest) it's still not worth it because of time it takes to fight. Sunken chests while being good concept have too little limit per map (only 4 at a time could be present) and majority of loot outcomes is worthless (those with boat patches are extra worthless because Klei nerfed them in one of the updates to account for cheaper recipe, but now they are unusable as boat healing in Crab King fight, for example). There is another type of debris that could be caught with fishing rod/winched, but aside from tiny chance to get kelp stalk or spork loot table is garbage, which makes it not worth to stop boat for in general. Ocean storage options need update badly, considering all the loot player can get and tiny space available for building/dropping (in latter case it's unplayable without ground chest mod (client, but still)). Pirate raids needed refresh right when they came from beta, and latest stealth hotfixes before Winter's Feast only made them worse to the point that I disable them - the only other mechanic that was that bad was desease, and I don't even loose content that way at all. I wish there were more sea-themed dishes like caviar from roy and fish recipes that reward player for catching different types of fish/obtaining different types of sea-exclusive resources, as well as those that insentivise player to bring supply of mainland-specific resource (fig frogwich would be an example if it was actually worth cooking).

Well, a lot to unpack there, and I don't think I really can do it without sounding like a broken record for the rest of this post. Though one funny thing I'll point out about ocean dishes is that the vast, VAST majority of them can be made with freshwater fish. And those that aren't, are awful. You can't even make seafood gumbo with just seafood, because DST increased the meat value compared to shipwrecked, so throwing 3 large fish into a crock pot will have enough meat to make a Surf 'n Turf. Which; mind you; is also better in every conceivable way. 

2 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I’d argue that it has a lot, but most of what’s there is low utility gimmicks, like the whale just feels like nothing because why interact with it, certainly not using that low feedback, nonsensically designed fishing rod to give it anything.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. The thing with the ocean is that; in the three years it's existed, nothing that it introduced was strong enough too make waves in the game's meta. The same equipment, the same stratagies, and the same resources that where top dog before RoT stayed the top dog afterwards, and that's really where the problem lies. 

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Why does everybody want every biome and place to be cluttered with stuff? The ocean has things to it. Surely there is potential for more content in the sea but it is quite fine to traverse and explore as it is.

Is it though. Is it? As someone who does enjoy the act of sailing from time to time, there is stuff out there, but not only is the vast majority of the ocean empty space, but the stuff that's out there just isn't very good. For reasons that I elaborated on for the above post. 

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The ocean is as good as you, the player, make it. There is amply opportunity for setting up good stuff, like building docks around shoreline salt formations and moving Sea Weed to shoreline sea stacks (this has to be one of the most easy-going and low-maintenance farms once set up). Ocean Trawlers are also neat to set up (with or without docks).
The Moon Quay is pretty straightforward to find after you have played the game for a while:

Spoiler



And it seems like the same players who say that there is much to do at the ocean also say that they don't know how to sail or almost never do it. Well, I also thought that the ruins were overrated and empty until I figured out what was in there and how to utilize it.

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I think world gen needs to be redone with consideration for the ocean, the current lump of landmass in the center forcing you to sail around the entire world if you want to get to something on the other side. 

I think there needs to be more things to do in the downtime between finding islands in the ocean, maybe a new type of resource could be gathered passively as you sail? 

 

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49 minutes ago, Ardcrumb said:

I think world gen needs to be redone with consideration for the ocean, the current lump of landmass in the center forcing you to sail around the entire world if you want to get to something on the other side. 

I think there needs to be more things to do in the downtime between finding islands in the ocean, maybe a new type of resource could be gathered passively as you sail? 

 

I keep saying this over and over again but I played the HECK out of Shipwrecked, and at first glance Shipwrecked looks like a DLC all about sailing on the Ocean, this is actually not true though, Shipwrecked is about sailing from land biome to land biome to gather resources to stay alive/build & repair your boats.

I don’t think Klei takes that part into Consideration when they added an Ocean to DST, and instead opted to try to make the Boat itself a gameplay experience: However it’s just not a FUN one..

Allow me to explain- The other day me & my friend were playing DST and I was sailing around on a Grass Raft, I ended up eventually at Pearls Island, but then.. I started running low on Grass and my raft broke at Pearls Island, I ended up Stranded on this Island without the resources to build another raft.

This is Highly Important when I discuss the differences between DS Shipwrecked and DST- With Shipwrecked (and even with Hamlets pond segments) you had several different TYPES of vessels you could build to Get back out onto the water.

Dont Starve Together either needs to A: Drastically lower the wood costs in creating a Boat Kit, B: Allow Grass Rafts to be repaired with Twigs or Logs instead of only Grass which is hilariously sparse in DSTs Empty Ocean.. or C: Add New Boat Types that uses Resources from the Various Islands (and Future Islands..) you could potentially end up otherwise Stranded On.

For Example- If Talking to Pearl would’ve Given me a Raft just so I would LEAVE her Island I wouldn’t had been “Stranded” There.

OR Klei can just redesign the game so that Grass/Twigs/Wood can potentially Spawn in Any Biome to guarantee you don’t just end up stuck at sea with a Grass Raft or Wood Raft.

Aside from the limited options in what you can use to craft a boat, the oceans next big hurdle is how vastly empty and boring it is sailing from point of interest to point of interest.

This is and as you said largely due to every biome being one large land mass cluster in the center with the “sailing” part taking place around the outer edges all the way around it. Breaking them up into an Archipelago would help TREMENDOUSLY here.

Then there’s the actual lack of interesting ocean content to engage with that isn’t just a small biome like Water Logged- I’m talking about At Sea stuff with gatherable resources.

The absolutely HILARIOUS part of that is that DST HAS been adding gatherable resources (such as Salt Formations, or SeaWeeds) however UNLIKE Shipwrecked where those resources would be separated and scattered all across the ocean so there’s something to sail around & encounter every so often such as Shipwreckeds Coral Reefs or Ballphin Dens- DST Hilariously clusters them all into one Area to make it it’s own “point of interest” rather than being like Shipwrecked and actually scattered across the ocean.

Things like Wobster Dens could be scattered out at Sea, hell they could port over Shipwreckeds Limpet Rocks and put those out in the water to pluck food off of..

But it’ll ALWAYS continue to Suck if when they add those Limpet Rocks they add them into ONE CLUSTER AREA rather than scattered around the ocean.

Even Seastacks in DST follow this clustered up in one area design.. and I can’t help but think.. Why?

When Klei Added She Sells Seashells they added Shellbells and Shell Turfs, when they added Moon Quay they added Sandy Beach Turf and Palmcone Trees.

So somebody tell me why the heck I can’t encounter tiny beach turf islands with a single Palmcone tree and a shell bell or two on them?

I don’t care WHO tries to defend DSTs ocean as being fun… it still needs a ton of work in my opinion.

I LOVED the Shipwrecked DLC Expansion, and THIS due to the above mentioned reasons- is nothing like it..

Hopefully Klei will take notice and overhaul the entire game with a sailable ocean in mind.

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4 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

The ocean is as good as you, the player, make it. There is amply opportunity for setting up good stuff, like building docks around shoreline salt formations and moving Sea Weed to shoreline sea stacks (this has to be one of the most easy-going and low-maintenance farms once set up). Ocean Trawlers are also neat to set up (with or without docks).

 

No, it's definitely not. Salt is incredibly inefficient at restoring freshness; to the point you're better off just farming that thing again. Barnacles I have a soft spot for, but even I'll admit that most of their recipes are sub-par, and that they also suffer from a short spoil timer. And who cares about ocean trawlers when all the good fish dishes can be made with freshwater fish anyways? 

As I said before, there's very little on the ocean that's able to compete with the stuff we already have in any meaningful way. There are no weapons that compete with Hambats or Dark Swords, No food sources that compete with pig farms, goat farms, or gardens, no armor that competes with Football Helmets or Thulecite crowns. It's all just fluff.

4 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:


The Moon Quay is pretty straightforward to find after you have played the game for a while:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

And it seems like the same players who say that there is much to do at the ocean also say that they don't know how to sail or almost never do it. Well, I also thought that the ruins were overrated and empty until I figured out what was in there and how to utilize it.

See, I do sail. And I do know what all's out there and how to utalize it. And it's because of that knowledge that I know how frivolous it all is. 

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Here I made you guys a TL:DR of WHY DSTs Ocean Content SUCKS regardless of how much Klei has added to it over the past 4 Years.

Current way content is Generated.

D7EBC104-FE45-4CA8-A883-B747E13FA199.thumb.jpeg.911b55e582d001ea361bb6a6ea8cf9c1.jpeg

How It would be Generated if it was designed in Shipwrecked Style.

45F493B4-4A0A-42A9-BF63-8C8D1A577A3D.thumb.jpeg.942140f9dcf854f6c02b24526f19b9a2.jpeg

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