This is not the direction Don't Starve should be going

[Milordo]

Here we are...

Wilson rework. The end of an era. The end of this renaissance era of Don't starve, started from 2019 and now nearing its conclusion with the future being misterious and "full of spoilers" said from one of the developers.

As always, I followed the game principles by playing and testing the new beta blind without spoiling myself, as Klei intended. 

I know I'm nobody in the giant ocean of the community, I know my proposal will not be picked-up and I know my post will probably be laughed at but as long veteran player/fan since 2013, it's worth a shot. I'm ready for the pitchforks and torchs of the community for thinking in a different way that is not speedrunning on day 27 all bosses with just pierogi, hambats and football helmets. Obviously I'm not here to talk about the new boss, the Nightmare Werepig, as I still don't know what he does, drops, ecc....  ( Oh btw, another boss added on the surface....wow....I hope it's a placeholder....)

 

I dislike the Wilson Rework. Probably it will grow on me and I will change my vision but as it is now, I despise it a lot. Here my list of feedback before the "controversial" proposal:

1) Spoilers; I know this may be seen by a lot of people as a nitpick, but the skill tree spoils about Ancient Fuelweaver, yellow, orange, green and Iridescent gems. I don't get it why Klei and the community treats, in the last years, important things such as Ancient Fuelweaver as something "Well, everybody knows it! Who doesn't?" when it's never the case. I get it that Ancient Fuelweaver ""quest"" it's almost impossible to understand it blindly that you need to check the wiki or the usual content creator (that's why I'm waiting for a full rework on that) but it would be appreciated to hide these things and discover them later through hints (for example it shows you the yellow, orange and green gems when you discover the ancient pseudoscience station, iridescent when you do the moon altar, ecc....). It's the same problem I'm having with the new UI with the everything tab and the searching tool, that lets you see things from other characters and items that you shouldn't see and influence new players. New player experience is not considered on the table.

2) Design; I don't get it. I really don't get it. The skill tree, Wilson having bonus without malus, farming hours like a duck and you can have all the perks for ever on your account....what is happening here? This is all diametrically opposed to Don't Starve. What happened to the "Don't reveal or say the prize to the people and leave them free"? What happened to the all "Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic rewards"? What is going on? This is not an Rpg. This is not a Jrpg. This is Dst and should be a blind uncompromising survival game that you discover it after the numerous walls of trail and errors. Learning that all the things you can do on Don't Starve, you can do them since day 1. I saw the feedback of others players. Of how "This is great! Wilson will stay the vanilla character for new player, while also give him some progression for good advanced players!"

First in first, Wigfrid, Wx, Webber, Wanda and Warly would like to talk with you, as they have a far better implemented progression in the game, that reflects the nature of Don't Starve but also....why as an advanced player would I play as Wilson, when I can min-max all of his crafts and then chose another character. Why gate-keeping all his perks on, literally, farming hours? You do know how the new player experience is? Normally we suggested to new people Wilson, because he was the basic character. The true vanilla experience. The metric system on Don't Starve. And now it's ruined because people will be influenced on "upgrading" torches, crafting things out of nowhere or you know... kill the final boss, it's easy, why not? It destabilize the normal progression you do in the game. 

I also saw how already, a lot of people are disliking the "wait and farm all your points forever" and suggesting at this point an achievement system. The irony, after all these years, to go back and repropose an achievement system, something that you despise it Klei but made it in a different paint with the Wilson Rework....you kinda shoot yourself on the knees with this.

3) Balance; Well...this is a dead point, since Don't Starve is suffering tremendously of balance. This era was blessed with balance changes ( such as the new plants rework, the bunnymens nerf, the hound waves rework, ecc...) but a lot of work needs to be done and the game remains really unbalanced. And what happened here? You make logs from twigs? You make flint from rocks? MARBLE from ROCKS? WHAT? (and me going nuts over 2 piece of rocks making marble, already says something about the overall balance and design of the game...). The alchemy thingy, as an idea, is...nice but my god, what happened here. Wilson can literally create and do things, without a repercussion, without a malus. And this leads us to the 4th point....

4) Iridescent gems; Sooo....now Wilson break all the moon quest? Since he can do now almost "free" iridescent gems, why should I need to do all the moon event + deconstruction staff + ruins at all, if I can switch as Wilson, build as many Iridiscent gems as I can and that's it? Easy way to finish the game sooner, without a scratch. And now that I think about it, the Wickerbottom book, Lunar Grimoire, is now buffed again, making it again as pre-nerf spammable and easy to reproduce. Ironic, after you Klei nerf it. I suppose it's not intended?

 

 

Klei, if you want to introduce this mechanic to Wilson at all cost, here my proposal:

My proposal = Why don't remove entirely the skill tree thingy and substitute with a "survival book"?

The survival book it's exactly like the cookbook and the gardeneer hat. It opens like the skill tree but it shows all the plants, animals, items, structures, ecc.. that Wilson have encounter in his journey. The more you experiment with these entities and mechanics, the more Wilson will describe them on the book. In this way you have a "tutorial" that could encourage people to play more. It could be described also in a funny way through Wilson speech, leaving some mysteries to the player. I'm not advocating to create this survival book as a wiki in game,  it doesn't need to paint all the details of the game but atleast something that reflects the true nature of Don't Starve, that respect Wilson as the "vanilla" character and new players (also good and veteran players, as this book could be expanded and describe things of further levels and late game). A great tool for teaching players basics and/or advanced stuff.

I know Klei will probably not take this consideration at all because they have their schedule, they're a company now and probably what it's suggested here requires a lot of work and they made probably their mind on this new perk skill tree jrpg thing, but I'm talking as a player and lover/fan of the franchise.

 

Please, reconsider on all this rework. This is not the direction Don't Starve should be going.

[Well-met]

sorry but it sounds like you wish wilson stayed useless.

No one else is getting a skill tree, iridescent gems are still useless to anyone but wicker, all your favorite lureplant/wall exploits will still remain in the game, don't worry.

wilson is the star of the series and he deserves special treatment and now he gets to be an actual scientist.

[Gashzer]

Tbh DST missed out in the progression by having to unlock characters by doing quests or levelling up that the OG dont starve has. So wilsons perk tree isnt that far-fetched.  Quests have always been apart of dont starve... if anything DST needs a more linear experience like the adventure mode.

Dont starve allowed everything to be renewable by world regen on one dlc shard while basing in another.

Dst should make absolutely everything renewable in one way or another too.

[Place Holder]

I definitely agree with you on some points, but I believe that this doesn't show an end of a renaissance or anything. I was definitely shocked when I learned of the skill tree, and I agree that it's defiantly way out of place in don't starve right now. Klei has shown again and again that they respond to the community, that's why the beta is public. I really like that you provided another way to implement the rework. Overall I don't think we need to worry or anything, Klei has shown with things like the reap what you sow update, terra trim tamper, basically all the character reworks, removal of disease, and the ancient guardian fight rework. Overall this update was made to make the game better, so if people don't like the update it'll change. We should definitely discuss the update but remember there are people behind the game. TLDR: Don't worry, if anyone can handle this it's Klei

[Cheggf]

23 minutes ago, Well-met said:

sorry but it sounds like you wish wilson stayed useless.

No one else is getting a skill tree, iridescent gems are still useless to anyone but wicker, all your favorite lureplant/wall exploits will still remain in the game, don't worry.

wilson is the star of the series and he deserves special treatment and now he gets to be an actual scientist.

If Wilson was "useless" before the rework he's "useless" after the rework. The only useful thing he can do is magically, or I mean "scientifically", transform a large amount of one item into a small amount of another, but the things he has the option to do that with aren't very useful. The best one is turning a ton of stone into a little marble, but marble is mostly useless and can be much more easily amassed by just using a marble farm.

[dzzydzzy]

49 minutes ago, Milordo said:

This is not the direction Don't Starve should be going.

According to you. But the thing is, Klei has developed it. They have plans beyond our grasp. The critique of "this goes against the spirit of the game" whether that's in regards to artstyle, a boss fight, new UI, or new mechanic is a little silly when critiquing any game. At the end of the day, none of us are part of the dev team. They are the ones who have meetings, pitches, etc to weigh these decisions and then work tirelessly to code, illustrate, animate to get it out to us to test.  And comments like these just sound like a dramatic fear of change.

This happens every beta without fail (I was guilty of this when I first joined the forums) there is at least 1 post that goes "I am displeased with your decision, now here's my opinion on a completely different idea" which is insane, because hours of work have already been poured into what we see. They are not gonna scrap it all and start from square one just because a forum post has a couple likes and comments. 

56 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I know my proposal will not be picked-up

could've saved yourself some time from typing this up then.

[Wildbaldie]

I have some different points with you. 

For the first spoiler point, as far as I observed most new players don't have long game experience (archives usually don't exceed 30 days) They can because any any small things to regenerate a new world such as don't find mactusk camp before winter, don't have beefalo wool, dead several times, not enough food in winter, didn't setup base well, or just think they didn't do well. Give them a goal could not be a bad idea.

before the rework many characters are more suitable for new players than wilson. Many characters live easily than wilson. for new players the most important things for  them are live longer and get fun from the game. wendy can clean spiders den easily wigfrid can make cheap armors. For a newbie why not choose those characters could help them live easily. I have to say in don't starve wilson is good because he doesn't have any disadvantages but in don't starve togethor no advantages is the big disadvantage. 

and I don't get the point what you mean no malus, most trades are not beneficial for example one log two twigs, more like designed for emergency use, such as no twigs to make torch in winter than change a log to twigs because could get log in winter. 

[Cheggf]

3 minutes ago, Wildbaldie said:

For the first spoiler point, as far as I observed most new players don't have long game experience (archives usually don't exceed 30 days) They can because any any small things to regenerate a new world such as don't find mactusk camp before winter, don't have beefalo wool, dead several times, not enough food in winter, didn't setup base well, or just think they didn't do well. Give them a goal could not be a bad idea.

"Keep the game open" isn't a goal.

3 minutes ago, Wildbaldie said:

before the rework many characters are more suitable for new players than wilson.

No one was more suitable than Wilson because everyone else either had downsides to make the game too hard or upsides they could rely on as a crutch.

[Wildbaldie]

and for myself I am an advanced player I want to use wilson to play my long term archive. why he must be a "blank character" who have nothing interesting points just for "new players". now at least I can play throwing torch its funny.  

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

"Keep the game open" isn't a goal.

No one was more suitable than Wilson because everyone else either had downsides to make the game too hard or upsides they could rely on as a crutch.

but the situation is most new players play other characters than wilson. u see how many newbies play wilson in official servers? I see many of them play wendy or wigfrid. In dst except wes all characters' upsides significantly outweigh the downsides. 

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, Wildbaldie said:

and for myself I am an advanced player I want to use wilson to play my long term archive. why he must be a "blank character" who have nothing interesting points just for "new players". now at least I can play throwing torch its funny.  

but the situation is most new players play other characters than wilson. u see how many newbies play wilson in official servers? I see many of them play wendy or wigfrid. In dst except wes all characters' upsides significantly outweigh the downsides. 

Wilson is literally the most commonly played character. And Wes has far better upsides than Wilson.

[Wildbaldie]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wilson is literally the most commonly played character. And Wes has far better upsides than Wilson.

really? I thought wes only advantages is could have a walking can at first day. tell me what his other upsides? 

[Capybara007]

"end of an era" you are more dramatic than wigfrid

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

sorry but it sounds like you wish wilson stayed useless.

No one else is getting a skill tree, iridescent gems are still useless to anyone but wicker, all your favorite lureplant/wall exploits will still remain in the game, don't worry.

wilson is the star of the series and he deserves special treatment and now he gets to be an actual scientist.

Perfect forumite example of not reading at all the post and give an "edgy" response to gain a quick buck of likes. Quick suggestion: next time you can even respond with just "No." you'll gain more.

 

49 minutes ago, Place Holder said:

I definitely agree with you on some points, but I believe that this doesn't show an end of a renaissance or anything. I was definitely shocked when I learned of the skill tree, and I agree that it's defiantly way out of place in don't starve right now. Klei has shown again and again that they respond to the community, that's why the beta is public. I really like that you provided another way to implement the rework. Overall I don't think we need to worry or anything, Klei has shown with things like the reap what you sow update, terra trim tamper, basically all the character reworks, removal of disease, and the ancient guardian fight rework. Overall this update was made to make the game better, so if people don't like the update it'll change. We should definitely discuss the update but remember there are people behind the game. TLDR: Don't worry, if anyone can handle this it's Klei

Heya, thanks for the comment!

Sorry that I didn't specify it but what I meant as with the "end of a renaissance" was the realization of Klei committement to update and support the game through that big project that started since 2019. This big project ended today with the last character rework, after this we don't know nothing. Their words, not mine. You can search it. 

Thanks anyway for the positive and optimistic comment! Your examples of past history where Klei went back and fixed are absolutely true. I'll definetely wait what they'll say about it.

53 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

 The best one is turning a ton of stone into a little marble, but marble is mostly useless and can be much more easily amassed by just using a marble farm.

The problem with the marble farms are the marble trees being painfully slow and tedious. Now with Wilson it's far better to proceed in the game and devour deserts in all the levels (better if you have Maxwell or Wurt in your team) + some marble tress in your base and ta-da! You min-maxed the marble, but thanks to the new "unbalanced" perk of Wilson.

[Evelo]

- I completely agree with the way to obtain Inspiration is very... lackluster. Having a method where experimentation can grant inspiration sounds more exciting. No achievements!
- I do not think the skill tree is bad per say I think it needs balance changes. The skill tree is fine in theory so long as the acquisition of perks is engaging rather than "Wait 10 days"
- The suggestion of a Glossary or Encyclopedia or Exploration Diary is quite interesting. It can give users details about certain things and maybe give a progression system that is useless to older players since they know everything anyway, but useful to newer places (such as little tidbits about tactics to killing, common biomes, drops, etc) It could encourage exploration but I am warry since maybe players will want to fill it to completion then stop playing the game. (You can kind of see this with the Cookbook and the Farming Hat book thing). This in essence would be an achievement system. Yeah it isn't actually affecting the mechanical gameplay of Wilson in anyway but I think that is fine. The current system barely does too. Well with the exception of the Transmutation stuff which I both like because it could be useful if nitre is added, but it is also negative because it can cause newer players to neglect some resources and push them toward ideas that they might never have if the option of transmutation was never a thing.
- I do agree with the spoiler of AFW is a rather interesting decision, I do not think it is "bad" but I dont think it is "good" either. I think instead of giving it the official name rename it to "Defeat a powerful creature of the Shadows" or something. It still has that "oooh what's this?" without being so direct for players who wish to go at things blind.
- As far as the Kiss:Curse thing, Wilson has always had the Kiss (his beard/insulation/beard hair) with no Curse. The effects of the non Transmutation skills are very minor and I do not think would be poor inclusions. The addition of the transmutation is where, I agree, there should be a curse or malus as you put it. Over all since the power creep of characters their effective curses seem to become less severe over time i feel the downsides of the survivors should be leaned into more severely to compensate, but that is my opinion.
- Regarding the direction Don't Starve is headed: I don't think I fully understand your thesis. I only really play Wormwood and occasionally Warly because they are the only two that have legitimate and impactful downsides. The actual content outside of character refreshes have been amazing. I love the ocean and look forward to more additions to it. The caves are pretty bland given their size but I know more things will come. The game even after all my knowledge and experience is still difficult and I would even say "uncompromising".

[Cheggf]

28 minutes ago, Wildbaldie said:

really? I thought wes only advantages is could have a walking can at first day. tell me what his other upsides? 

He gets a walking cane, he can give everyone else temporary walking canes, he can give the entire server infinite sanity, he can go to empty or full sanity at will, his staves last 33% longer, his dark swords and glass cutters typically last 33% longer, he can flare the map for free, he can make distractions, technically he can make traps but they're not very good.

All of that from day 1.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Milordo said:

Normally we suggested to new people Wilson, because he was the basic character. The true vanilla experience. The metric system on Don't Starve. And now it's ruined because people will be influenced on "upgrading" torches, crafting things out of nowhere or you know... kill the final boss, it's easy, why not? It destabilize the normal progression you do in the game. 

This is something that seems to be coming up a lot in multiple areas and it's hard for me to comprehend nothing has technically changed about the base of Wilson you can completely ignore what was added to him with zero consequences it more or less strikes the perfect balance of a character who never changes but can change if you choose to.

 

1 hour ago, Milordo said:

Iridescent gems; Sooo....now Wilson break all the moon quest? Since he can do now almost "free" iridescent gems, why should I need to do all the moon event + deconstruction staff + ruins at all, if I can switch as Wilson, build as many Iridiscent gems as I can and that's it? Easy way to finish the game sooner, without a scratch. And now that I think about it, the Wickerbottom book, Lunar Grimoire, is now buffed again, making it again as pre-nerf spammable and easy to reproduce. Ironic, after you Klei nerf it. I suppose it's not intended?

I don't think this is as big a deal as people are making it out to be I mean it's not like we haven't had characters with shortcuts before.

 

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

If Wilson was "useless" before the rework he's "useless" after the rework. The only useful thing he can do is magically, or I mean "scientifically", transform a large amount of one item into a small amount of another, but the things he has the option to do that with aren't very useful. The best one is turning a ton of stone into a little marble, but marble is mostly useless and can be much more easily amassed by just using a marble farm.

  I mean overall the things he current does are fairly useful for different players even if some are more useful to others.

 

51 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

No one was more suitable than Wilson because everyone else either had downsides to make the game too hard or upsides they could rely on as a crutch

Doesn't that somewhat make him a poor representation if that is indeed the case? Does the option to do more make a player worse? Does not having a ability improve the rate at which players learn how to play the game? Do new players get a more quality experience from playing without an ability? Because there are characters that you can play where you don't feel the real weight of their downside that new players can also play if the answer is no.

 

34 minutes ago, Wildbaldie said:

really? I thought wes only advantages is could have a walking can at first day. tell me what his other upsides? 

Speedy balloon can be used as a flare, party balloons give infinite sanity gains that scale with party members in radius, free life vest, free garland that protects from lightnning strikes etc.

[slendyproject]

Im just gonna go ahead and say that this forum needs to stop clinging onto game design directions and decisions from like 10 years ago. Im not entirely sold on the skill tree but not because its a skill tree. Dont starve is not the same game as it was when it launched and a skill tree isnt even that out of place with what the game is nowadays.

The discussion shouldnt be "dst should never have a skill tree", it should be "how should a skill tree work in current day dont starve". I certainly dont think it should have torch duration upgrades and beard inventory, but im also not gonna oppose its existence just because a decade ago the game wouldnt have had one.

Dst doesnt need a basic slate character just because ds had one. Dst doesnt need to refrain from permanent progression just because ds did. Dst shouldnt hide everything from players just because ds did (imo there should be achievements as pointers to bosses even).

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, slendyproject said:

Dst doesnt need a basic slate character just because ds had one. Dst doesnt need to refrain from permanent progression just because ds did. Dst shouldnt hide everything from players just because ds did (imo there should be achievements as pointers to bosses even).

To add to this we already have permanent progress in the form of the cookbook and the gardeneer hat.

[DVGMedia]

The whole aspect of Don't Starve. Was that klei would nudge the player into directions of how to survive and where to go. 
alot of it is pretty visual. starting on the surface you see rocks but then you see a strange rock blocking a hole.

Then the player goes down and continues to explore.  then finds another going deeper.

with dst now.  i think the fact that people can see these upgrades I would see how new players would ask. How do i get these gems?
then veterans can help them explore to get them. Its like getting the community to teach.

I kind of think the skill tree actually is much nicer I think it should be added to all characters. Because then it would help people understand what their character roles are and the player can figure out what the character is good at.  plus the skill tree system can also be used to address things that klei did to characters.
like if players like an older system for the character they can build the character for themselves without needing to hurt anyone else who plays that character.

[oCrapaCreeper]

The original DS hasn't gone anywhere if you're clinging on to old design. I don't have much vocal opinion on direction but whatever DST has been doing the last few years is very dull to me.

Wilson's refresh doesn't even sounds like something that doesn't fit the game. Do you remember the original crafting system the game had? You would unlock recipes with research points and they would carry over between worlds, Wilson's re work is very reminiscent of that except it's not based off crafting.

 

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Milordo said:

I know my post will probably be laughed

Happy to oblige.  I think you and I both like DST, but for very different reasons.

Most of your post I think are kinda non-issues to me, but this caught my eye and I wonder what your grounds are?

5 hours ago, Milordo said:

4) Iridescent gems; Sooo....now Wilson break all the moon quest? Since he can do now almost "free" iridescent gems, why should I need to do all the moon event + deconstruction staff + ruins at all, if I can switch as Wilson, build as many Iridiscent gems as I can and that's it? Easy way to finish the game sooner, without a scratch. And now that I think about it, the Wickerbottom book, Lunar Grimoire, is now buffed again, making it again as pre-nerf spammable and easy to reproduce. Ironic, after you Klei nerf it. I suppose it's not intended?

Wilson makes an iridescent gem => 1 green, 1 yellow, 1 orange, 1 purple, 1 red, 1 blue gem == 1 iridescent gem

Others making one => 1 yellow gems, 2 green gems, 2 living logs, 7 nm fuel, 2 thulecite == 1 iridescent game, also 19 uses of dwarf star, 9 uses of construction amulet and deconstruction staff.

tbh I think Wilson's way is cute, but a bit underpowered considering lol  Sure you don't have to wait for full moon, but missing all of those dwarf star, construction and deconstruction uses feels like a loss.  Also you can easily yoink 2x iridescent from the archives if you're looking to make the full moon book, and then with that book each yellow gem can be made to an iridescent pretty easily...

I'm assuming there will be more uses for iridescent going forward.  I strongly feel the machine of Wicker giving constant full moons will leave Wilson in the dust for iridescent gem production. (and I'm okay with that, this is just a fun perk for Wilson atm)

edit - I noticed Wilson can make Gold out of Nitre...  now if he could reverse that and make nitre out of gold that would be OP!!

[hhh2]

I was reading about it on the forum post, and I was ANGRY. OOOH how could they do this to Wilson!? Then I angrily clicked on preferences, opted into the beta, waited for my download, and tried the changes myself. It's ... not bad. I like it now. I hope other characters get it too. And a new boss? I have reason to sink another hundred ish hours of my time into it.

I was dreading change, but my expectations were subverted thankfully. Thank you, Klei. Maybe I will buy just ONE more skin pack.

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wilson is literally the most commonly played character. And Wes has far better upsides than Wilson.

This is objectively false and probably based entirely on PC version stats, because I can tell you over on Xbox hardly ANYONE plays Wilson.

And absolutely NO ONE on Xbox picks a character that HAS NO PERKS.. (that’s like starting Apex Legends as a Rookie who isn’t even a legend that has no abilities at all.. while all the real legends dance circles around him with their abilities.) Do you now see why Default Starter character = Bad? I sure hope so..

In a game where everyone has unique perks and playstyles Wilson needed to change too. 
 

That said: I am failing to see the part where Wilson’s rework would’ve been spoiled by getting the 2023 Roadmap.

Unless Klei is planning to do something with Skill Trees, perk systems, or maybe even nightmare infused mobs, I’m failing to see the connection between Wilson’s Rework and what comes NEXT for the franchise roadmap.

It could possibly be tied to his animated short Thats yet to be released, but as of right now.. I don’t understand the connection. :c

[Cruvimaster]

This rework is very disappointing. The concept is good, but the execution is bad. There's nothing that makes Wilson attractive. With Maxwell it was a good job.

[Cassielu]

I agree with you, with the exception of the skill tree, I think it's actually a return to the classic DS direction. In the DS, new players accumulate EXP over the course of a few days of survival, which, like playing roguelite, encourages multiple attempts, as EXP does not die with you, and even if you do die, you are rewarded with more new characters. The skill tree works in a similar way, just replacing different characters with different abilities of the same character, encouraging new players to experiment without being too afraid to die.

If surviving in Don't Starve world for a certain amount of time feels like "waiting" rather than something "to do", maybe you shouldn't force yourself to play Wilson, but choose the character you like better and that suits you better.