Characters who need a second rework

[minespatch]

Instead of reworks, I'd like more mini-comics like Cyclum. Stuff that will make Maxwell Memes back to more exploitable material.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 hours ago, MadMatt said:

It does though, not just for the Wereforms capabilities but also for Woodie gameplay over all. Having 20% more speed on the Moose would make previously needlessly difficult boss fights like Ancient Guardian and Klaus MUCH easier, and if you add a road you'd have the benefits of the Moose while having the speed of the Goose. Not to mention the Magi is a straight performance enhancer to the Goose, and honestly alone would encourage Woodie to go to the ruins to strengthen his Wereforms. But then of course there's the newly buffed Lazy Forager and potential for LG amulet healing yadda yadda...

ye which doesn't fit the mechanic neither is interesting. Feels forced, why would they add wearing amulets when only magi would be useful and just to buff goose which can be buffed without it and to remove the speed penalty of the moose, makes no sense for me. Red amulet give very little hp so unless they change that is pointless, orange amulet will fill your inventory very quickly and you wont be able to pick more stuff so another pointless amulet, purple would only be useful for farming NF as moose but is super niche and you already lose sanity so pointless addition and the green one cant be even used

changing that just to wear magi is really forced and wont fix the character because even with speed you wont use moose that much because of the dps

8 hours ago, Spirit Glow said:

When you say health for moose are you saying base health or more of a regen?

i meant base hp since is a huge beast, he should have more than 150hp in that form (and you start at 130...), maybe 250 since is 50 more than a huge human like Wolfgang. That would make moose better (with also more dps) without removing his uniqueness like would do adding an amulet that gives speed....

7 hours ago, MadMatt said:

I've already addressed this with you before so I won't insult you by going over all my points again, but tying some forms of progression to important areas of the game would do more for making a character enjoyable than giving them those same benefits as part of their base kit.

there can add progression throw celestial tab and moonstorms. Moon influenced idols made in the moon tab that are buffed versions of his forms and having that buffs when you transform during moonstorms even with regular idols

also i forgot to mention that he should have more weather resistance which will improve his gameplay way more than 5hp every many seconds from a red amulet

[Wonz]

maybe anyone finds my old idea interesting. It looks like ton of effort to implement but most important part from my old post would be letting woodie switch forms at will while making beaver>goose, moose>goose transformation work like wheeler's slide, actually dodging while still being in hitbox making up for moose's slow speed and  giving goose a place in combat as defensive tool. That would require were>were transformations to be fast but would allow woodie's transformations to keep up with fast bosses.

[MadMatt]

20 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

ye which doesn't fit the mechanic neither is interesting. Feels forced,

Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree, I feel that amulets are the only restriction that could be lifted and retain the interesting dynamic that the Wereforms have going for them, since they only give limited secondary effects compared to busted armor and items like Weather Pain or Panflute. 

24 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Red amulet give very little hp so unless they change that is pointless

Hard disagree and that's because it uniquely benefits the Weremoose BECAUSE of his restrictions which is what makes it so cool. Healing overtime is exceptionally rare solo, being limited to the tillweed salve and jellybeans. Tillweed salves heal only 20 HP over the course of a minute and jellybeans 120 HP. The LG amulet would heal 40 HP total over the course of 4 minutes, or a Wereform transformation. This makes it a very nice accessible middle ground between the cheap but hard to get salve and the raid boss loot of the jellybean, so you can cushion the damage of long fights like Celestial Champion, Ancient Guardian, even Klaus. Not to mention, they stack and the LG amulet has a lot of durability so one can be used many times for this purpose.

29 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

orange amulet will fill your inventory very quickly and you wont be able to pick more stuff so another pointless amulet

It'd be a huge QOL for the Beaver. Instead of gnawing through a whole forest and then spending the rest of your time picking up logs, you could go in and with one transformation chop and pick up, what, 224 logs? It'd make gathering a big batch of logs when you need em SOOOO much easier and would feel so much better. Even if it's "limited" the current item pick up limit before it'll break would be useful to anyone except for idk, mega basers. 

Though yeah, the rest of the amulets are kinda useless... but aren't most of them already? Realistically speaking, you aren't even missing out on Construction Amulet's bonus because you won't be in your Wereform if you wanna use it anyways, and all the other amulets get virtually no use outside exceedingly specific situations. I think the Wereforms would get more bang for their buck than regular characters, which is another reason why it's such an elegant solution since it doesn't remove any of the Wereforms true downsides and encourages deeper use of them than regular characters BECAUSE of their downsides.

32 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

changing that just to wear magi is really forced and wont fix the character because even with speed you wont use moose that much because of the dps

Ehhh, the DPS of the Moose isn't so bad for me since I made a habit of animation cancelling. I understand most people don't but with it the Moose's real issue is the inability to heal and tendency to get hit, so yes getting a speed boost would make me consider the Moose far more, at least personally, since it'd be a more consistent boss killer.

35 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

there can add progression throw celestial tab and moonstorms. Moon influenced idols made in the moon tab that are buffed versions of his forms and having that buffs when you transform during moonstorms even with regular idols

It's much more forced progression though, and less elegant than what I was hoping, at least the suggestion to add more idols. I'd rather be naturally inclined to progress like other characters because of the items and events that come from progression and how they affect my character and Wereforms, not replace it with my own form of progression through idols. I guess depending on the reqs and effects it wouldn't be so bad, but i'd still avoid ruins loot because if i'm looking to use the Wereforms why would I care about them?

39 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

also i forgot to mention that he should have more weather resistance which will improve his gameplay way more than 5hp every many seconds from a red amulet

Yooo but what if he had weather resistance AND gained HP from an amulet? That'd be pretty sick eh?

[flamboyant wolf]

Woodie and Walter need to be stronger, so that there's an actual reason to use their perks, Winona needs more stuff, as she basically has nothing.

and Willow needs something too, but idk what. I don't play her often, so can't really say much.

[Cheggf]

14 hours ago, MadMatt said:

Kind of a moot point when it is universally agreed that almost NEVER using those forms is the optimal choice

So when you guys say "change" what you really mean is "overpowered without me needing to think". 

14 hours ago, MadMatt said:

while Wickerbottom's new books have been huge game changers in her day to day play and specific strategies

Which?

[djturner]

In terms of actual second refresh only Winona and Willow stand out. Winona is unbelievably powerful in the right hands because of how absurd her catapult farms can be, but that's a very limited appeal and it'd be cool if she was mechanically broadened a bit (even if that meant toning down the farms, IMO, though that might be controversial and I don't know how to elegantly do it). I also think she should be the undisputable crafting master, but instead due to how her crafting speed interacts with hunger drain and hunger levels it's more like a wash than a benefit. Honestly I think that whole thing should be scrapped as is and reimagined or just dropped entirely.

Willow is obvious, as others have pointed out. She needs more fire starting related perks beyond the sanity gain. It's sort of a shame that the "refuelable" Fire Staff kind of got co-opted by Pyrokinetics Explained, because something similar to that (in addition to bonus damage w/ fire generally), perhaps involving starting fires instead of putting them out, is where my mind goes for something that would be perfect for Willow. She's tough though because fire is very punishing in this game and Willow already has the stigma of being a griefing character, so there'd probably have to be rather forced protections involving loot not burning up off mobs when the fire was started by Willow. Maybe even preventing the fire from spreading too, if it came from Willow specific sources.

A lot of Woodie discussion but I feel he's firmly in the realm of tweaks, not a second refresh. Goose should be faster. People are always saying there should be more travel options and it's right there waiting to be a good one. Moose isn't your answer to everything but it shines in AoE situations, of which there aren't many other consistent options in the game beyond Abigail. Just because it isn't also simultaneously correct to use him in every single target situation seems more like good design than poor. Beaver is good at what it does. If we compare Moose to Abigail, Beaver to Bearger, and Goose to Backtrek Watch, yeah, of course they're not going to stack up. But if you put all of these things together (plus random small perks like an infinite axe, his beard's insulation, and increased loyalty timers on followers) you get a jack of all trades, versatile character with no downsides beyond full moons and hunger after transforming.

[PunkShark]

I think it's also important to remember that it is okay to have mediocre characters, not everyone has to have the same hard hitting dmg as Wolfgang or Wanda or the agility and utility of Wx otherwise it'd just be playing every character the same exact way. 
Woodie is very unique compared to everyone cause the forms give him everything in small idol packages. But asking him to get hp regenerative powers, using amulets or able to fight off raid-bosses on his own is just asking too much for the guy without being absolutely tanked up. The forms are meant to be limited mechanically to what they do. 

All he requires is a few tweaks and he'll be right as rain but not as everyone want him to be.

[Dextops]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

when you guys say "change" what you really mean is "overpowered without me needing to think". 

No we mean actually useful and better than the base counterpart 

[Mike23Ua]

For me it’s Winona, Willow & Wigfrid- I’m not a fan of their reworks.

new refreshes brought exciting new gameplay perks to the game- Example Wickerbottoms ability to smoother out and consume fires with the Fiery pen should’ve totally been a “Willow” thing.

Being able to charge through groups of enemies or throw things at an enemy shouldn’t be a Moose Woodie & Mighty Wolfgang feature, the Valkyrie Wigfrid should’ve had these with Battle Spear charge and Spear throw (both things we’ve seen her do in Animated shorts/Vignettes)

Then finally there’s poor Winona, she just fits into this category of Swap character without much going for her & it’s sad to see really- this chick repairs a portal that full out explodes.. but she doesn’t have any cool crazy contraptions?

Better yet Klei since we can now carry living spiders in our inventory… let me load on onto a catapult and launch it at an enemy. 

If for nothing else: the LOL factor & possible synergy with Webber.

[MadMatt]

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

So when you guys say "change" what you really mean is "overpowered without me needing to think". 

No, I mean something that will practically benefit a character. Woodie is distinctly unique in that his "benefits" pose more of an obstacle. What you think I am saying is completely unrelated to what I am actually saying.

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Which?

The book that allows someone to change the benefits of a full moon from a once every 20 days occurrence to once every however many days they desire, the ability to turn rain on and off completely, and the ability to return ones temperature and dryness to normal. Compare forms which have simply outclassed abilities by non-character specific methods and which impose restrictions that turn 90% of items in the game useless, to being able to remove environmental hazards and gain the benefits of an exceedingly rare natural event everyday one so desires.

I haven't even touched the other books introduced because I don't play Wickerbottom, but I understand these three books well enough to know that Woodie's abilities are outmatched by them alone. I don't care if you argue that Wickerbottom is weaker compared to the cast over all, but comparing her to Woodie is just ridiculous.

[Mysterious box]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, dzzydzzy said:

Walter feels a bit all over the place in terms of perks

I mean I feel like he fits right in with most of the post rework characters and new character's "all over the place perks".

 

On 1/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, dzzydzzy said:

just needs a little extra boost to make him a better option, it'd be great if you could actually have more overlap between Woby and Beefalo taming to encourage Walter to stick with her over training another animal (seems redundant).

I do agree here Walter feels quite lacking in what he does when other characters have better ranged options and much much better crowd control so he doesn't really excel anywhere atm. 

 

On 1/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, dzzydzzy said:

I'd also love some super expensive op ammo for slingshot that maybe does 100 dmg to give him more priorities in terms of his own farming.

Don't really think this would change anything if it's more expensive than cursed rounds it already isn't worth it so if we're going for a more expensive less sustainable ammo type than that then I imagine noone would ever use it or care because at that point why not just make blow darts?

11 hours ago, MadMatt said:

Hard disagree and that's because it uniquely benefits the Weremoose BECAUSE of his restrictions which is what makes it so cool.

Personally I do feel like his moose form is cool in concept but in practice it feels like your paying stats to fight in a handicapped fighting state with a somewhat useful charge attack.

[MadMatt]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I do feel like his moose form is cool in concept but in practice it feels like your paying stats to fight in a handicapped fighting state with a somewhat useful charge attack.

Ye. The charge either is a dangerous AOE option that doesn't even get rid of the most dangerous aspect to hoards, stunlocking, or acts as an imprecise and finnicky cane + magi only usable against very particular bosses and enemies. He is super cool and I love it to death but everyday I have to pray that the siren's call of playing an actually useful character doesn't pierce my brain rot.

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, MadMatt said:

No, I mean something that will practically benefit a character.

You mean like forms that give great aoe damage, free moggles, free armor, free hambat, free weather resistance, and free mobility?

5 hours ago, MadMatt said:

The book that allows someone to change the benefits of a full moon from a once every 20 days occurrence to once every however many days they desire

And what benefit does that have to someone who thinks it's trivial to supply a server with thulecite gear?

5 hours ago, MadMatt said:

the ability to turn rain on and off completely,

A minor convenience perk at best. It shouldn't even be remotely challenging for someone of your caliber to handle rain. A single inventory slot can solve it, just bring an eyebrella or something.

5 hours ago, MadMatt said:

and the ability to return ones temperature and dryness to normal

You mean like 2 logs can do as any character?

[flamboyant wolf]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You mean like forms that give great aoe damage, free moggles, free armor, free hambat, free weather resistance, and free mobility?

except they're not free. while making an idol is not hard, you also pay in health and sanity, along with all your hunger.

also half of those "benefits" aren't even good compared to what any character can do. Moose has less dps than a hambat, due to slower attack speed, has harder time kiting, due to slower move speed and can't heal without external help from Wortox/Wigfrid. using Goose is slower than riding a beefalo, unless you're using it for traveling over water. not to mention you can't even do anything while in goose form. Beaver is alright, but just not enough on its own.

Woodie is a very interesting and unique character, but his powers are just not worth using after, like, day 10.

[Datanon]

this is my take on all reworks so far. all of this is subjective of course since its just my opinion.  means i think they need attention and  means i think they are okay or just need a few adjustments
 

Spoiler

 winona: she feels like a roleplaying character, since most of the stuff she's supposed to do isn't practical at all, specially the spotlight. its much easier to kill stuff manually since her catapults are almost not worth the effort at all, even when near a boss's spawn location. for most of the time she feels perkless since she also barely has a downside. i like the vibes that they were going for with her but the execution needed to be better. also please delete the celestial portal

 willow: i think they decided to transform her into a pet character but the execution was so weird... if they want to stick with this theme i feel like willow needs a way to heal bernie during combat (put him on fire from afar with a fire dart or staff idk) and he needs to taunt enemies more reliably

 woodie: he ended up better than the previous ones. like willow his theme has changed into being a druid-like character but he actually got some useful perks, however i do not like the totem system and i feel like the moose needs a bit of balancing: he feels extremely lackluster as soon as you get decent weapons (which can happen very early in like day 10). also just like winona you forget that he has a downside for most of the game

 wigfrid: she's great. she's like a bard now except she's also a tank and a dps... also she didnt really need a rework so we just got better stuff. fantastic

 webber: i never liked webber so i never played him. i have no idea how webber works but i guess its good now that his spiders wont attack me on multiplayer

 wendy: there was a good amount of quality of life for her. i barely played her before and after the rework but from what i saw she only received improvements, so good for her

 wx-78: they were all about their stats before and they gave them some new, creative stuff. theyre fine i guess i just think they were nerfed a bit too much on multiplayer with a wickerbottom, i thought the synergy between the two was kind of fun

 wolfgang: he ended up just fine and balanced. still feels like he has no downsides though

 wickerbottom: she NEEDS to be the only one able to read her own books. other than that i thought it was an underwhelming rework, but she really didn't need much in my opinion... also please bring back the old, uncapped horticulture but just make farm plants advance to the next stage... only 10 plants growing up feels so arbitrary and clunky, and it doesnt matter if she's growing up 10 or 100 since whatever she's using it for will never run out anyway

 maxwell: he's fine and balanced. i just feel like they could be more creative with his "spells" but what we got was fine anyway. i dont play him much though

 warly: he's great on the late game but god he suffers WAY too much on the early game if youre not a warly main. managing your hunger with him is a pain and not fun at all for me

 wormwood: literally never played them, but i think their upsides are very underwhelming

 wortox: i think he's too resourceful and is too good in multiplayer. other than that he feels nice and comfy to play with, and i dont think he needed the soul hunger buff

 wurt: never played her

 walter: never played him

 wanda: she's great and practical. an actual breath of fresh air to the characters of the game

 wes: please make him a character with actual upsides and downsides. if you want a challenge mode just add one to the game that affects every survivor, not just one

 bonus (kind of a prediction really): please don't repeat wes on wilson, make him a character with upsides and not normal mode. add a perkless mode that affects every character and not just him if you need to, i don't want my friends to have to play him to learn the basics of the game

hopefully i didnt forget anyone

[MadMatt]

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You mean like forms that give great aoe damage, free moggles, free armor, free hambat, free weather resistance, and free mobility?

None of it is free in fact it comes at the cost of the worst possible downsides in the game since it strips you of your ability to use the strongest items in the game while they are active. Not even strongest just items in general, like healing.

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

And what benefit does that have to someone who thinks it's trivial to supply a server with thulecite gear?

Full moons means almost free infinite light (unlike the conditional night vision of the wereforms) and means you can refresh Hambats regularly which is useful since the Hambat is useful and unlike the very cheap thulecite armor, the club is much harder to amass.

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

A minor convenience perk at best. It shouldn't even be remotely challenging for someone of your caliber to handle rain. A single inventory slot can solve it, just bring an eyebrella or something.

The wereforms are all minor "convenience" perks, it's why i'm comparing them to these books and not the bonkers farms that I know are possible but am not confident enough in my knowledge to bring up. But regardless yes it's very convenient in that it frees up one of two armor slots, generally the most used one in combat so I would even question it being a "minor" convenience perk.

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You mean like 2 logs can do as any character?

Takes time and is immovable. Wickerbottom can refresh her status completely as soon as she goes through a short animation. This one I regret bringing up because it's just a nice book that i'd REALLY like to use. Being able to reset your temp while piling on multiple layers of insulation? That's sick as hell!

I understand that her powers may be lackluster but you're comparing at least a top-mid character to genuinely one of the worst. 

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, MadMatt said:

Full moons means almost free infinite light

No one is draining tons of sanity and gluing themself to the base making them unable to do anything just so that other people have a few seconds of not needing to use a light item lol.

1 hour ago, MadMatt said:

and means you can refresh Hambats regularly

How do you find it easy to supply everyone with thulecite gear but struggle with ham bats? Were moose is a free hambat but you just said it sucks because it's only a hambat, then when someone other than the character you arbitrarily hate gives ham bats suddenly it's an amazing perk.

1 hour ago, MadMatt said:

Takes time and is immovable

I've literally never seen anyone use tempering temperature. Honestly with how bad of a temperature it sets you to it's barely even faster than a campfire. Who cares about warming up to half the temperature you should be at with no effect on thermal stones? I tried using the book once. Once.

1 hour ago, MadMatt said:

I understand that her powers may be lackluster but you're comparing at least a top-mid character to genuinely one of the worst. 

Quite an assessment from someone who doesn't seem to play either.

[MadMatt]

15 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

No one is draining tons of sanity and gluing themself to the base making them unable to do anything just so that other people have a few seconds of not needing to use a light item lol.

Eh? You only need to read it once per day, only needing to go to base ONCE per day. Also isn't sanity a non-issue because Wickerbottom can grow and amass huge quantities of ingredients to make sanity restoring foods? Also there is the bone helm which removes the need for even that. 

17 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

How do you find it easy to supply everyone with thulecite gear but struggle with ham bats? Were moose is a free hambat but you just said it sucks because it's only a hambat, then when someone other than the character you arbitrarily hate gives ham bats suddenly it's an amazing perk.

Again not free and again not as good as a hambat, about 20% worse unless you do animation cancelling. Also I don't struggle with hambats but having the tools on hand to hold as many meat and pigskin you require to always have a fresh one for a fight is not so simple when you have to rely on using monster meat and 20 day full moons to get the materials. Yes it IS easy to gather large quantities of thulecite gear. I am being perfectly consistent in my assessment.

18 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I've literally never seen anyone use tempering temperature. Honestly with how bad of a temperature it sets you to it's barely even faster than a campfire. Who cares about warming up to half the temperature you should be at with no effect on thermal stones? I tried using the book once. Once.

That's on you but I can tell you that with my frame of reference even something as "bad" as this is is more convenient and useful than the wereforms. And this is not a gotcha considering I am using the 3 least directly beneficial books as a comparison, if you look at Wickerbottom as a whole then the assertion that Wickerbottom somehow is worse than Woodie is frankly ridiculous.

19 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Quite an assessment from someone who doesn't seem to play either.

Debate's over, we can't agree on anything and you continue to make unfounded judgements about me as a person rather than what we're arguing about. We'll just have to agree that we both think our characters are garbage and leave it at that, hopefully something changes these circumstances for both our sakes.

[Riddla]

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You mean like forms that give great aoe damage, free moggles, free armor, free hambat, free weather resistance, and free mobility?

It's too simple to claim the best benefits the forms may seem to give, yet the drawbacks are just as important to bring up. The state of wereforms right now is equivalent to eating soup with a fork - sure you can pick some good parts here and there, but you're missing out on a lot once you realize.

Don't get me wrong, the forms are pretty damn powerful early on, until you get enough experience to realize that they're beaten to a pulp by the simplest tools, as stated above already. And once you go deep enough in the world, the wereforms merely serve as a way to challenge yourself by gimping you with restrictions, or to goof around.

Woodie simply needs some extra stuff that encourage him to keep using forms even late-game, but at the same time they should still remain to be a double-edged sword, risk vs reward, those are curses after all. It just so happens that the reward for such risk right now is stepping on Woodie's foot, nothing more.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, MadMatt said:

You only need to read it once per day, only needing to go to base ONCE per day

This isn't Minecraft, bro, days are only 8 minutes. I've never seen anyone limit themselves to a small area around the base just so that people can go without a light item for a few seconds.

3 hours ago, MadMatt said:

Also isn't sanity a non-issue because Wickerbottom can grow and amass huge quantities of ingredients to make sanity restoring foods?

Well I guess since you're tethering yourself to the base needing to spend a bunch of time farming isn't an issue since you don't have much else you can do. But how is being unable to heal a downside for Woodie when you should be eating jellybeans anyways? That's something you should be doing whether or not you're Woodie, unlike this meme book slave thing you've devised for Wickerbottom.

3 hours ago, MadMatt said:

Again not free

OMG right after saying making a bunch of sanity food and permanently restricting yourself to the area around the base just so you don't have to spend a few seconds holding a light is free. Discussing this with you is pointless, she could have a book that turned 10 thulecite into 5 rot and you'd try to say it's a great free way to fertilize berry bushes.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

33 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Discussing this with you is pointless, she could have a book that turned 10 thulecite into 5 rot and you'd try to say it's a great free way to fertilize berry bushes

or the end is night

[Mysterious box]

9 hours ago, Datanon said:

wes: please make him a character with actual upsides and downsides. if you want a challenge mode just add one to the game that affects every survivor, not just one

I mean he does have good upsides they just only mainly apply to team play most don't even realize some parts of his mechanics due to him being a challenge character and that discouraging some from playing him him. As for downsides he draws hounds more often than other players work slower and does less damage while having the lowest stats in the game I'd consider that a decent downside.

[Lardee]

I'd say Woodie and Willow should be tweaked instead of getting a full rework.  

I think they should give Walter a rework if anything.  His allergy to Bees that bypasses armor is dumb.  I don't mind his sanity mechanic because a good player can find ways around it.  What I think they really need to change about Walter is his slingshot.  It's just WAAY to slow to be an alternate to fighting normally.  Even when using the strongest ammo he can get (cursed rounds) it's still underwhelming especially since he has to stand in place for a moment to start shooting.  

To fix Walter, they need to give him the ability to craft or obtain a more advanced version of his slingshot that can fire fast enough that at least cursed rounds can compete with melee.  They should make it really expensive too, possibly cost ruins loot, multiple boss item or even raid boss items in order to obtain it.  As of now, fighting things other than birds with the slingshot is just not worth it.

On 1/9/2023 at 12:29 PM, MadMatt said:

Kind of a moot point when it is universally agreed that almost NEVER using those forms is the optimal choice, while Wickerbottom's new books have been huge game changers in her day to day play and specific strategies. Yes, adding new transformations you will neglect very early into the game is nothing compared to controlling entire aspects of the game that other characters cannot even hope to mimic.

But to add to the topic and cease being such a downer, Woodie really does need a rework. Both from a meta and fun point of view his current Wereforms just don't work. They're so bad it's hard to overstate, and they prevent you from using ANYTHING other than backpacks with them which makes the whole progression gameplay flat out worse for him. The general concept around them is really really cool but it just leads to awful gameplay that either nudges you away from natural progression points of the game to make use of his abilities or make you question why you don't just play Wilson instead. SOMETHING needs to be added to him to encourage delving into the ruins and going down CC's questline because all the equipment is useless to Wereforms and moonstorms can only act as a refuel on garbage abilities lmao. 

I couldn't have said this any better.

 

On 1/9/2023 at 1:01 PM, Notecja said:

To me Woodie is missing that sort progress during game, that some other character have. He starts pretty strong on first day, as being able to get pretty cheap 90% armour and free weapon + charge for many enemies, or explore quickly to find moon island or monke insland, or just start chopping some forest - with choice to spawn or not spawn treeguards. 

Aaand that's all. All what he starts is all he has. His wereforms are never improving. In mid game his most important perks are becoming... maybe not useless, but outclassed by normal equipment. Then just imagine him being able to at least use amulets with wereforms (we can carry backpack - why not amulets, clothes, etc). It won't be much wow, like is not really gonna save him in every situation, but hey, shiny speeed goose! Or moose not slowed down that much. Maybe little health regen? Maybe lesser sanity penalty? Not overheating during summer? So far it's my favourite idea for Woodie and it's not mine.

100% agree with this too.  Although you could argue his Weremoose form can be "upgraded" with double the health once you beat Bee Queen, but in 9/10 situations it still can't compete with fighting using normal Woodie after you got your hands on stuff like hambats, football helmets, walking canes and magis.

[Dextops]

11 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I'd say Woodie and Willow should be tweaked instead of getting a full rework.  

I think they should give Walter a rework if anything.  His allergy to Bees that bypasses armor is dumb.  I don't mind his sanity mechanic because a good player can find ways around it.  What I think they really need to change about Walter is his slingshot.  It's just WAAY to slow to be an alternate to fighting normally.  Even when using the strongest ammo he can get (cursed rounds) it's still underwhelming especially since he has to stand in place for a moment to start shooting.  

To fix Walter, they need to give him the ability to craft or obtain a more advanced version of his slingshot that can fire fast enough that at least cursed rounds can compete with melee.  They should make it really expensive too, possibly cost ruins loot, multiple boss item or even raid boss items in order to obtain it.  As of now, fighting things other than birds with the slingshot is just not worth it.

I couldn't have said this any better.

 

100% agree with this too.  Although you could argue his Weremoose form can be "upgraded" with double the health once you beat Bee Queen, but in 9/10 situations it still can't compete with fighting using normal Woodie after you got your hands on stuff like hambats, football helmets, walking canes and magis.

Hi lardee