Characters who need a second rework

[Lardee]

On 1/9/2023 at 3:08 PM, Spirit Glow said:

I like Woodie but I think he could benefit from some changes.

The main problem I have with moose form is that honestly its just easier for me to fight as Woodie. He isnt as slow and has the benefit of being able to eat and therefore heal in a pinch. Maybe if moose had the ability to eat? I feel like it would incentivize fighting as moose, at least for me it would. I havent thought about it too much but I'm curious on what others think. Wood it be a good change? Too much? Not enough? 

Giving the moose the ability to eat would make him boring IMO.  The thing that makes the moose fun is that you have these really cool upsides like infinite thulecite suite while having these really punishing downsides like not being able to heal yourself.  Coming up with unique workarounds in order to make the moose "work" is half of what makes him interesting. 

Giving him the ability to eat would take all the fun out of it, essentially making him play the same as his human form.

[Mike23Ua]

You guys ever seen those movies where they put these guys in these heavily armored medieval battle suits that look pretty awesome, give the dude a huge sword or battle axe, a fearsome and noble stead to ride around upon and THEN reveal he has a massive deadly allergic allergy to bees so one flies inside his face plate and stings him swelling him up inside the armor & this otherwise total badass warrior just dies over dead?

Thats Walter in a Nutshell and it makes sense that his Armor doesn’t protect him from his bee allergies.

5 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Giving the moose the ability to eat would make him boring IMO.  The thing that makes the moose fun is that you have these really cool upsides like infinite thulecite suite while having these really punishing downsides like not being able to heal yourself.  Coming up with unique workarounds in order to make the moose "work" is half of what makes him interesting. 

Giving him the ability to eat would take all the fun out of it, essentially making him play the same as his human form.

This is objectively wrong as well, the dudes a giant moose- he should be dealing at bare minimum mighty Wolfgang damage.

[Dextops]

21 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This is objectively wrong as well,

what part of what he said is objectively wrong

[Cloakingsumo198]

I think a nice buff for Woodie's moose charge is giving it a sense of control.

Kinda like demoman's charge ability from tf2 with the tide turner it would be cool to see moose do figure 8's while charging instead of a straight line.

Or they could just give full control and let it do a 180 on a dime I dunno.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I think a nice buff for Woodie's moose charge is giving it a sense of control.

Kinda like demoman's charge ability from tf2 with the tide turner it would be cool to see moose do figure 8's while charging instead of a straight line.

Or they could just give full control and let it do a 180 on a dime I dunno.

I thought about this too, but I think the problem with the charge is less about you running in a straight line and more about you being forced to charge the max distance.

If I was Klei and I wanted to make the Weremoose more enjoyable, Id allow the player to cancel out of it after the moose has traveled half the max distance of the charge.

[Brago-sama]

For Walter I've always had these ideas for him.

-Have Giant doge have sanity aura similar to pudgy beefalo that affects Walter

-Let Walter gain 1-5 sanity for every slingshot kill he gets

He seems like a sanity-control based character so I thought it'd be fitting for the outliers in his perks to have something related to it

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

For Walter I've always had these ideas for him.

-Have Giant doge have sanity aura similar to pudgy beefalo that affects Walter

-Let Walter gain 1-5 sanity for every slingshot kill he gets

He seems like a sanity-control based character so I thought it'd be fitting for the outliers in his perks to have something related to it

In addition to all the normal ways of restoring sanity (excluding clothing items) Walter has his own completely gimmicky ways of restoring Sanity, mostly in the form of his portable tents, telling campfire stories or the more obscure one: Wearing his Pinetree Pioneer hat and being around a lot forest trees.

2 hours ago, Dextops said:

what part of what he said is objectively wrong

I merely meant that entering full on starvation status after transformations is enough of a downside that the Moose should have more upsides- such as hitting much harder because it’s a giant heavy moose.

[Dextops]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

I merely meant that entering full on starvation status after transformations is enough of a downside that the Moose should have more upsides- such as hitting much harder because it’s a giant heavy moose.

K, i can get that but it's just not an objective fact, it's an opinion aka subjective

And this concludes dextops' class for the day, dismissed.

[. . .]

no please no! dst needs more actual world content!

[Yuuko]

Ah, this topic again XD

First off - I think we're in a great spot where most characters have really fun things they can do.  No big changes or overhauls are needed, just tweaks to make their perks a bit more useful (and adjust downsides as needed?)

Woodie is great.  His forms are really cool, and he's received some nice qol to help manage them.  imo it isn't quite enough qol though, and they should give him a pass to make sure his human form wood chopping and beaver form don't overlap so much and tune up the moose form a bit so it doesn't get replaced by late game armor.  His whole perk are these forms, they should be end-game worthy - especially considering the restrictions he has to play with to use these.  He could definitely use something to combat the intrusive moon situation with the storms and Wicker's book.  Maybe he can afix some glass to Lucy, and while her glass form is equipped he won't transform from the moon.  He'd still transform from idols, and if he uses her a bit the glass breaks leaving him vulnerable to the moon again.  This way he can participate as a real character during these times lol.

Winona could use some tweaks to her downside.  The hunger drain and slow crafting are just bad.  She crafts slower hungry than Wanda does in old age lol.  The dynamic of her passive draining her hunger penalizes intermittent crafting pretty heavily too.  A lot of people talk about how Winona is a "pick and switch" character b/c her crafted structures are cool, but a big part of that is side-stepping her ravenous apatite early game where she drains her stomach far too fast just doing only occasional crafts, and the awkward situations where you're stuck at 40% hunger and need to craft a weapon and armor really quick lol.  There is no reason she needs to get it this badly.  imo they should rethink her downside in general, maybe give her some restriction where she just can't craft magic or something?  Or takes a bigger penalty if she uses anything magic-y?

As for Willow idk...  I like her as she is and I'm not really big on the changes I hear people throw out...  While it would be great to encourage her to burn things, its just not the same if it isn't REAL fire.  All these "dark fire" etc are bad ideas.  It is unfortunate that they gave wicker the fire book.  Something like that would have really worked well for Willow.  Calling in all the fire, and being able to cast it back out - NICE.  Upgrading her lighter for better light radius is good - just match lanterns so she can keep using it into end game rather than ditching it once alchy is up.  I've heard some ideas about lighting Berny on fire for bonus effect but idk :\  I'm fine with her being more vanilla.  tbh I play her so much for her quotes than anything XD

[Spirit Glow]

7 hours ago, Lardee said:

Giving the moose the ability to eat would make him boring IMO.  The thing that makes the moose fun is that you have these really cool upsides like infinite thulecite suite while having these really punishing downsides like not being able to heal yourself. 

The only issue here is that after a few days in you now have no upsides and only downsides when compared to human form. Seems like most people agree that healing/eating is not the answer. While I would like to see moose do more damage, simply upping it would be a boring solution as well.

[Pedrolar27]

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Ah, this topic again XD

They don't let this topic die in peace. 

[Datanon]

15 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean he does have good upsides

theyre just not enough to make him a balanced character. and i think thats by design, which makes me upset about it

5 hours ago, . . . said:

no please no! dst needs more actual world content!

im pretty sure theyre different teams. we can have character changes while still having new overall content

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Datanon said:

theyre just not enough to make him a balanced character. and i think thats by design, which makes me upset about it

I guess that depends on what your criteria for a balanced character is his party ballons scale with the amount of people you have making him a really good team sanity healer kind of like a sanity version of wortox. His speedy balloons give a decent speed boost and also works as a flare to guide players to his location giving it a use post walking cane. His ballon vest is a good emergency tool for unexpected boating accidents. If I remember right his balloon hat prevents lightning strikes and is a garland. His balloons have a chance to pull aggro and he's got a higher chance to pull hounds yea most of this doesn't really benefit him personally and loses most of its use when playing alone but I feel like that's the perfect way to design a character who's meant to be a challenge while not being just a disadvantage for the team.

[Mysterious box]

17 hours ago, Lardee said:

Giving the moose the ability to eat would make him boring IMO.  The thing that makes the moose fun is that you have these really cool upsides like infinite thulecite suite while having these really punishing downsides like not being able to heal yourself.  Coming up with unique workarounds in order to make the moose "work" is half of what makes him interesting. 

Giving him the ability to eat would take all the fun out of it, essentially making him play the same as his human form.

While I agree solving it in a simple way like that wouldn't be as fun but as it stands the moose is just a inferior version of the human form because the human form attacks faster and moves faster meaning that your less likely to take damage while dealing more damage it's much like Walter's slingshot in my eyes it's fun to use but not actually practical beyond being fun excluding a few outliers.

[Riddla]

34 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While I agree solving it in a simple way like that wouldn't be as fun but as it stands the moose is just a inferior version of the human form because the human form attacks faster and moves faster meaning that your less likely to take damage while dealing more damage it's much like Walter's slingshot in my eyes it's fun to use but not actually practical beyond being fun excluding a few outliers.

I think it should be fine to make Weremoose frenzied either the more injured he is, or the less sanity he has. Or even both, letting his damage reduction grow the less health he has, and letting him hit harder the less sanity he has. Any boosts that basically reward you for keeping yourself on toes in extremely dangerous moments, I feel like it'll be tons of fun to have that adrenaline as you fight for your life, that'd fit the curse theme well too.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

another good buff for the moose that will improve a lot the perk without removing the essence would be to give him some short of stunlock resistance. Is a form that basically is only useful against crowds of enemies but you take a lot of risk if you fight many of them because they can block you forever and you wont be able to even use the secondary atack to flee. Also it reduces even more the dps if you choose to tank an enemy

less duration on stunlocks or complete inmunity will greatly improve him without adding weird stuff

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Riddla said:

I think it should be fine to make Weremoose frenzied either the more injured he is, or the less sanity he has. Or even both, letting his damage reduction grow the less health he has, and letting him hit harder the less sanity he has. Any boosts that basically reward you for keeping yourself on toes in extremely dangerous moments, I feel like it'll be tons of fun to have that adrenaline as you fight for your life, that'd fit the curse theme well too.

Idk they tried that kind of mechanic with Wendy but it wasn't well recieved but who knows.

 

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

another good buff for the moose that will improve a lot the perk without removing the essence would be to give him some short of stunlock resistance. Is a form that basically is only useful against crowds of enemies but you take a lot of risk if you fight many of them because they can block you forever and you wont be able to even use the secondary atack to flee. Also it reduces even more the dps if you choose to tank an enemy

less duration on stunlocks or complete inmunity will greatly improve him without adding weird stuff

I'm in the camp of completely removing stunlocks on his moose form since he can't use items anyway.

[Lardee]

3 hours ago, Riddla said:

I think it should be fine to make Weremoose frenzied either the more injured he is, or the less sanity he has. Or even both, letting his damage reduction grow the less health he has, and letting him hit harder the less sanity he has. Any boosts that basically reward you for keeping yourself on toes in extremely dangerous moments, I feel like it'll be tons of fun to have that adrenaline as you fight for your life, that'd fit the curse theme well too.

I like the idea of the Weremoose getting more frenzied the more injured he is, however I don't think giving him more damage reduction or making him hit harder is the way to go.  Fluctuating damage reduction would make it harder for the player to determine how many hits I am allowed to take before going down which is something that is vital for playing a character that can't heal itself.  Fluctuating damage is cool, but it could mess up calculations about how much more hits I have to land in order to beat the enemy since your damage isn't fixed.

Instead I'd suggest that  the Weremoose's attack speed increase as his health drops.  He should maintain his current attack speed when at full health, match the normal players when his HP is around 66% and then just get faster as his health dips more into the red.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Idk they tried that kind of mechanic with Wendy but it wasn't well recieved but who knows.

 

I'm in the camp of completely removing stunlocks on his moose form since he can't use items anyway.

I think reason the Wendy mechanic wasn't well received is that she needed to be in the red in order to just match the DPS she used to pull off at night and in the caves, plus she's not a tank character who can't heal herself like the Weremoose.  Since the Weremoose doesn't have the option to heal itself, it doesn't have much of a choice other than to keep fighting with low HP.

I like the idea of giving the moose stunlock resistance, but I probably wouldn't make him immune.  Probably would give him like 1.5 - 2 seconds of immunity after every attack.  I can only speak for myself, but I think stunlock is part of what immerses the player in the game, it makes me "feel" like I'm getting hit by the attack.  Removing it completely would take that part of the experience away IMO.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

I think reason the Wendy mechanic wasn't well received is that she needed to be in the red in order to just match the DPS she used to pull off at night and in the caves

said complain made 0 sense because of how much control and survival got abigail... but people wanted same power plus every new buff without losing anything even if that meant having a cool mechanic...

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Lardee said:

think reason the Wendy mechanic wasn't well received is that she needed to be in the red in order to just match the DPS she used to pull off at night and in the caves, plus she's not a tank character who can't heal herself like the Weremoose.  Since the Weremoose doesn't have the option to heal itself, it doesn't have much of a choice other than to keep fighting with low HP.

This doesn't really work though because in general the moose has worse survivability than Wendy on average since she can wear better armor with better damage reduction, is faster, and can deal more damage so giving a similar mechanic to a form that's arguably weaker than the character who had it previously I feel wouldbe precieved even worse because as it stands the moose is a disadvantaged state to fight in with minimal benefits.

Also Wendy's hp really wasn't that low for high damage when you considered armor and made a lot of mechanical sense for the character. I also feel like it added a really nice bitsweet irony Wendy wants to die to be closer to her sister but that in turn made Abigail fight harder to keep her from a simlar fate.

 

[. . .]

13 hours ago, Datanon said:

im pretty sure theyre different teams. we can have character changes while still having new overall content

they should use their full team to make new stuff that aren't character specific. i don't mind like a few tweaks to characters, but after wilson's refresh i don't want updates which just focus around the characters anymore they all got their own updates and the game hasn't had as much content updates as before because a lot of them where character refreshes for like 1 year or longer i lost track its been so long.

i really liked the string of a new reign updates because every update added new stuff to the world and new things, i really hope this year's updates will be similar to that again

[Cloakingsumo198]

Here's some tweaks that I think would benefit each characters playstyle this isn't including characters that I think really need extra care like woodie, willow and winona.

Wigfrid- I think they should either dampen her inspiration drain out of combat or remove it entirely this would allow her to actually use her abilities outside of boss battles. Such as opening fights with a rude interlude or startling soliloquy or even just buffing yourself to leech sanity/health better.

This isn't my idea but someone said she should get a musical sheet that lets her store her songs so she can free up her inventory, using songs from the sheet would then function like Maxwell's spells wheel.

Spoiler

Also just add the spear throw already.

Throwing your weapon is extremely ineffective at most it would be used to gain agro or to kill birds.

But still it would atleast be something and help new players not starve immediately as wigfrid

I also think it would be neat that Wolfgang and wigfrid could be throwing buddies

 Wanda- I think she should be given the ability to revive bosses.

Everytime I look at Wanda's kit I see just how self-sufficient her stats are

-She has an easily refillable high damage weapon.

-Her age meter and ageless watches make farming for healing items impossible but it also makes farming them unneeded after you have enough ageless watches to be comfortable working with.

-The backstep watch helps with trickier to dodge special attacks like df's first swipe or fuelweavers bone cage acting like a off brand lazy explorer.

This makes it so she has to farm less materials overall aside from obtaining her watches, armor, sanity food and tools like weather pains, staves, or amulets.

Speeding up the process of farming bosses for high tierloot especially for building/sharing while also having the trade off of having to actually kill the boss again.

Separating her even more from Wolfgang as a different kind of boss killer/team support.

Also replace the tusk requirement from her backtrek watch it seems entirely unnecessary especially since it bars Wanda's true potential to late game/triple tusk worlds/luck only.

It also causes turmoil among survivors since tusks are so sought after already.

Wolfgang- LET ME USE DUMBBELLS ON BEEFALO

Warly- 40 dishes, 40 spices, 1 seasoning station-> instant spiced stack. All. At. Once.

Ain't got time to be clicking back and forth between two stations just for all the food to also be spoiling at the same time.

Think about the fingers we would be saving.

Maxwell- Shadow gather's now have two inventory slots but they can't carry two stacks of the same item.

No more of them picking up one seed and pausing.

 

[Notecja]

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

said complain made 0 sense because of how much control and survival got abigail... but people wanted same power plus every new buff without losing anything even if that meant having a cool mechanic...

Yes, I agree it sounds interesting and makes sort of lore sense. Just lemme tell story, as during Wendy rework I decided to give try DST again, just some time after I gave up (and gave up because during that time I was new to game, dying on day 6-10 and I didn't know too much about game).

During that time I didn't know how Wendy was changed. I saw big screen with her and I was wondering why she is featured. Just remembered from last play I need to kill something to make Abigail appear, and best Abigail is at night. So you can imagine how clueless I was, right? I placed flower on floor and tried to kill butterfly... Oh, I didn't even know I could just summon her. Then I when I was figuring out things, I was wondering why takes so much time to kill any spiders. Why? Maybe damage was spread between enemies? Why "night" is not working? And what are these potions?

Yes, later I checked Wiki and then I found out some super complicated math thing about how then Abigail dmg works. As absolutely clueless player I found that... err... complicated. But gave it a try. I missed when some time later it was reverted... wiki page still was with that old information. I was trying to be like low health to just get better damage. And I didn't know why it doesn't work. And Abby and me were dying.

It's not like to prove or not anything. It's just a story. Just a little insight how new funny and very different mechanics can just mess up when you don't track stuff. 

[Yuuko]

The original Wendy / Abi rework didn't fit for Wendy, or for the game really.  The main issue is that you basically tanked to 1 health and then did *nothing*  You just let Abi go around doing whatever.  You spammed a potion to keep her healed sure, but you didn't actually do anything.  You were at 1 health, which is very risky but also - so what?  You're at 1 health but you aren't engaging with any content to make that matter.

It was just a good idea in the wrong spot.

As for adding something like that to weremoose I kinda dig it...  You can't heal anyway, and your armor isn't the greatest in the game.  Because you can't heal you'd think - if you mess up and drop too much health you just abort the fight.  BUT you get this awesome risk / reward sense where you might stick it out because you just got a buff too.  Unlike Wendy you're actually engaging the world as weremoose, and this can happen either as a backup (if the fight goes south at least I got this bonus) to even people dropping their health pre-fight to maximize the extra boost.

Wanda sorta already took this so idk if it really needs to be added somewhere else.

My preference for moose is just upping his damage to 75 per punch.  As it sits his damage is just low, worse than a ham bat.  Its also tied to low movement speed so you kinda get the shaft both ways.  b/c of this there really aren't many times you *want* to use moose for combat.  It doesn't have to be the most OP think like Wolfgang or Wanda, but surely it should at least be better than Wilson right? lol