[Game Update] - 513098

[Primalflower]

god forbid that a game mechanic be described as too demanding in an environment that never called for such things in the past, lest the people lament how the game is supposed  to be uncompromising and that means game mechanics shouldn't feel good

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

god forbid that a game mechanic be described as too demanding in an environment that never called for such things in the past

who decided that? they literally added an update with only dangers "trouble waters" i think was called

a biome lacking content doesnt mean that will lack of things forever

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

who decided that? they literally added an update with only dangers "trouble waters" i think was called

a biome lacking content doesnt mean that will lack of things forever

none of the content in the past required tanking, none of them even necessarily needed to be fought.

as for the content that you described in "troubled waters"

-rockjaws leave after 3 jumps onto your boat without having tasted the meat of a player, and they can be kited easily enough if you have one meat with you allowing you to bait them back when they lose interest
-seaweeds are non-hostile and mostly dormant unless you bump into them, and there exists shaving them in the night as a very, very powerful option

-terrorclaws can be kited and exist under the same rules as any other shadow monster when it comes to avoiding confrontation!!

Edited June 29, 2022 by Primalflower

[xhyom]

Can you guys stop acting like Klei is really going to put only one monkey per boat? It's annoying to see you guys generalizing as if the opinion of some people were the opinion of everyone who asked for changes in the update, if anyone really believed or was afraid that Klei would do this know that you are just delusional

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Primalflower said:

none of the content in the past required tanking, none of them even necessarily needed to be fought.

-rockjaws leave after 3 jumps onto your boat without having tasted the meat of a player, and they can be kited easily enough if you have one meat with you allowing you to bait them back when they lose interest
-seaweeds are non-hostile and mostly dormant unless you bump into them, and there exists shaving them in the night as a very, very powerful option

-terrorclaws can be kited and exist under the same rules as any other shadow monster when it comes to avoiding confrontation!!

and monkeys leave you alone if you shot them with a cannon, give them a banana or let them steal from your chest

isnt that enough? there are settings to reduce the raids as much as you wish

[finn from human]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

who decided that? they literally added an update with only dangers "trouble waters" i think was called

That is certainly... the title of an update. Note that said update contained

- Rockjaws, which you can avoid by dodging them a few times and showing them you aren't worth the effort for a meal.
- Seaweeds, which are designed to gang up on you if you're foolish enough to mess with them in the day, while able to be stunlocked while the others sleep night.
- Terrorclaws, which... they're shadow creatures, you can avoid them by staying high sanity with any of the many options for such at sea.

As someone who has been boating actively for a good couple years now... the ocean has never been an environment that required heavy preparation, it's always felt like an alternate start containing different challenges that, contrary to the ones on land, did not ever feel designed for the "epic combat until one of you dies" approach.

[Nettalie]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

who decided that? they literally added an update with only dangers "trouble waters" i think was called

a biome lacking content doesnt mean that will lack of things forever

they were all dangers, but they also were not nearly as intrusive to boating as this.

All except for wavy jones who was way way too punishing in his first iteration and got adjusted to be more managable, yet nobody is complaining about how they made wavy easier because he can still be a threat

Likewise nobody is complaining about the other threats introduced then because they don't feel as ridiculous as the monkeys do right now.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, meow meow meow said:

if i am being honest it is quite frustrating to have been enjoying ocean content for years now while seemingly everyone else on this forum was super vocal about hating it, and then literally the one time that ocean content was added that i don't enjoy i cannot express that without people telling me its fine and good and its uncompromising and i should just let luigi play for me or whatever

My issue is the narrative against this content I keep hearing is that a player shouldn't be prepared to fight at sea in a survival game and to me it feels like it boils down to the ocean should be a safe place to play around in with no consequences which will not only harm this content which I've found myself greatly enjoying but basically kill any hype for any future content since it could very well lead to kiel fearing to add anything like this again it doesn't help that people keep misrepresenting facts in order to get their way in this.

[finn from human]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue is the narrative against this content I keep hearing is that a player shouldn't be prepared to fight at sea in a survival game and to me it feels like it boils down to the ocean should be a safe place to play around in with no consequences which will not only harm this content which I've found myself greatly enjoying but basically kill any hype for any future content since it could very well lead to kiel fearing to add anything like this again it doesn't help that people keep misrepresenting facts in order to get their way in this.

The ocean is not a safe place to play around in with no consequences, it is a dangerous place with HEAVY consequences, just... not in the sense that "maybe some mobs will come after you and you have to do epic combat until one of you dies", but in the sense that if you don't properly respect the content out there, such as rockjaws and sea weeds and the waterlogged biome and gnarwails and etc, it WILL sink your boat and you will have just lost who knows how many resources to the waves, along with a heavy loss of stats and even max health. Which is arguably worse than death.

It is a different environment with difference consequences. Nobody is saying the ocean should be a playground, just that this is bringing a different set of consequences in an environment that really does not feel designed for them and really kills the gameplay feel that's been built up over years now, and it doesn't feel good. Like. At all.

Edited June 29, 2022 by meow meow meow

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

they were all dangers, but they also were not nearly as intrusive to boating as this.

All except for wavy jones who was way way too punishing in his first iteration and got adjusted to be more managable, yet nobody is complaining about how they made wavy easier because he can still be a threat

Likewise nobody is complaining about the other threats introduced then because they don't feel as ridiculous as the monkeys do right now.

 

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

My issue is the narrative against this content I keep hearing is that a player shouldn't be prepared to fight at sea in a survival game and to me it feels like it boils down to the ocean should be a safe place to play around in with no consequences which will not only harm this content which I've found myself greatly enjoying but basically kill any hype for any future content since it could very well lead to kiel fearing to add anything like this again it doesn't help that people keep misrepresenting facts in order to get their way in this.

this^

i see how strong they are but makes no sense some of the complains like "it should have 1 monkey" or "the game shouldnt expect you to have log suit and spear all the time" (for sure, the game expects you to get something better after this many time)

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

The ocean is not a safe place to play around in with no consequences, it is a dangerous place with HEAVY consequences, just... not in the sense that "maybe some mobs will come after you and you have to do epic combat until one of you dies", but in the sense that if you don't properly respect the content out there, such as rockjaws and sea weeds and the waterlogged biome and gnarwails and etc, it WILL sink your boat and you will have just lost who knows how many resources to the waves, along with a heavy loss of stats and even max health. Which is arguably worse than death.

It is a different environment with difference consequences. Nobody is saying the ocean should be a playground, just that this is bringing a different set of consequences in an environment that really does not feel designed for them and really kills the gameplay feel that's been built up over years now, and it doesn't feel good. Like. At all.

a shark will very rarely come to flop on your boat, gnarwail will attack you if you attack it, sea weeds will shoot balls at you if you choose to bother it, a water beefalo reskin will attack you if you bother it, slower spiders come to bite you if you come in it's sights or take it's fruit. Truly a dangerous place.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mysterious box

[Primalflower]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Epic combat...a shark will very rarely come to flop on your boat, gnarwail will attack you if you attack it, sea weeds will shoot balls at you if you choose to bother it, a water beefalo reskin will attack you if you bother it, slower spiders come to bite you if you come in it's sights or take it's fruit. Truly a dangerous place.

damn. This is straight up just nonsense. Theres little other ways to put it. its describing things as their literal physical action and disregarding any danger they pose for no reason other than to disregard meow^3's very valid point.

[Nettalie]

15 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 

this^

i see how strong they are but makes no sense some of the complains like "it should have 1 monkey" or "the game shouldnt expect you to have log suit and spear all the time" (for sure, the game expects you to get something better after this many time)

But?

Nobody is saying that?

At all?

What people are saying is if anything that either the scaling be improved, or it scale with the amount of players as well or that monkey attack periods get adjusted so that you have more equalized options for defending your loot and so optaining the unique monkey loot is more reasonable past day 60.

As it stands right now the game heavily pushes players to get raids early on and then not care at all later and when players do decide to fight the pirates later on theyre at such a heavy disadvantage that it can just feel unfair. Expecting of players to have weapons and armor is absolutely valid for this game, so is raiding players with a group of monkeys, those are not things that are outlandish and should be removed entirely.

What is outlandish however is raids that can happen several times on the same day with what is essentially equivalent to 5 super powered hounds and a krampus either stealing your stuff or maiming you when you defend yourself, and even on the off chance that you do survive getting cursed and at best having 1 less inv slot until you get to the quay or at worst losing your character perks until you get uncursed.

There is always a cost for the raids currently, be it items, health, armor, inventory, not being allowed to be the character you wanted to play as.
So I dont think its quite as trivializing when fighting the pirates gets made the sliiightest bit less punishing.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Nettalie

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Primalflower said:

damn. This is straight up just nonsense. Theres little other ways to put it. its describing things as their literal physical action and disregarding any danger they pose for no reason other than to disregard meow^3's very valid point.

Explain how they're so dangerous if they require player interaction to be dangerous aside from the shark or spiders and even then the spiders aren't a issue if you have armor.

[finn from human]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

a shark will very rarely come to flop on your boat, gnarwail will attack you if you attack it, sea weeds will shoot balls at you if you choose to bother it, a water beefalo reskin will attack you if you bother it, slower spiders come to bite you if you come in it's sights or take it's fruit. Truly a dangerous place.

Pigmen will attack you if you attack it. Beefalo will attack you if you attack it. The Minotaur will run at you if you bother it. The Large Eye will move towards you with mouth open if you choose to bother it. The Deerclops will walk towards you and then attack you if you let it approach you while growling from the distance. The Big Skeleton will swing its head at you and make bones from sky if you choose to slot the key in and bother it. The Bee Queen will fly in your direction and sting you with big stinger if you bother it by hammer. Damn, this game is lame.

[xhyom]

8 minutes ago, meow meow meow said:

As someone who has been boating actively for a good couple years now... the ocean has never been an environment that required heavy preparation, it's always felt like an alternate start containing different challenges that, contrary to the ones on land, did not ever feel designed for the "epic combat until one of you dies" approach.

I would like to emphasize "alternative start" as sailing isn't a late game thing, it's literally the same as duging a bunch of juicy berry bushes but just a little better (which makes sense as you need a lot more resources to start sailling). In land i can literally just run if there's any danger, and the funny thing is, there isn't any danger like the monkeys in land so...
But i'd like to say i'm pretty ok with how monkeys act now as i can peacefully just let them get like 20 twigs and go away.

 

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

a shark will very rarely come to flop on your boat, gnarwail will attack you if you attack it, sea weeds will shoot balls at you if you choose to bother it, a water beefalo reskin will attack you if you bother it, slower spiders come to bite you if you come in it's sights or take it's fruit. Truly a dangerous place.

Yeah Tallbirds doesn't attack you until you get close enough, spiders only come at night, pigs are neutral and even help you, beefalos are just beefalos. All of that and you don't even need to build a boat, truly a dangerous place.

[Nettalie]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Explain how they're so dangerous if they require player interaction to be dangerous aside from the shark or spiders and even then the spiders aren't a issue if you have armor.

Anything in this game can be easy to deal with and not dangerous if you know the right ways to deal with them. Does that make them inherently non dangerous?

[Maxil20]

31 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I shudder to think what would have happened to hound waves and depth worm waves had they become a thing later into this game's history.

Look, we can argue about periodic attacks until the end of the universe, but it's important to note that these are, quite easily, some of the most controversial mechanics in the game. While a lot of people might enjoy them, there are a ton of people who will leave them off for a variety of reasons. Pirate waves, being one of these periodic attacks, are no different.

Personally, I feel the issue people are experiencing is just the fact they attack way too frequently. The most recent QOL update increased the delay between depth worm waves and hound attacks so it didn't feel like something that showed up every 30 minutes. Monkeys attacking in a fraction of the time in an environment that was previously static of periodic attacks feels Very off, especially when that same update encourages early boat exploration with items like the grass boat being easily accessible. It is especially concerning the island these attacks come from can spawn pretty much anywhere, including other important areas like pearl's island and especially crab king's arena.

The counters in place work, but they take a lot of planning beforehand to do, especially the fact the easiest counters (cannons and bananas) are mainly/only available once you reach the island. You can get by with other options like the pan flute, but they are much more costly (and, given the mentioned frequency of waves, will quickly wear out).

I can respect your opinion of wanting the pirate raids to be tricky, but I do feel it's important to consider that if there are a considerable amount of people who are not happy with them in the beta, then there will be many more people who will have a similar response when the main branch releases. I don't want them to be nerfed to the ground, but I do feel there needs to be a balance between their frequency and difficulty. If people already don't like hound attacks because they are too frequent and they already got changed to be less so, how do you think people will react about a pack of a similar strength of mobs that come well over 10 times as fast?

[finn from human]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Explain how they're so dangerous if they require player interaction to be dangerous aside from the shark or spiders and even then the spiders aren't a issue if you have armor.

They're dangerous because boating isn't like... putting a boat in the ocean and then standing on it satisfied and disconnecting. You have to boat around in the native environment of these threats unless you're literally just never going to leave shallow water.

How are any mobs dangerous except hounds and giants if they require player interaction to be dangerous? Because you'll have to deal with them if you ever leave the area immediately around the portal. Are the only dangerous things in this game hounds, frogs, deerclops, and bearger? But even then, Bearger requires player interaction to be dangerous, because you can just pick up different food from what she wants. Oh, and frogs... you can walk away from those. Deerclops? She despawns too if you just run enough. Are hounds the only danger?

[Just-guy]

26 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and the 100% of people i play with have them in default

This doesn't mean the majority of playerbase do it, only that the people you play with do.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, meow meow meow said:

Pigmen will attack you if you attack it. Beefalo will attack you if you attack it. The Minotaur will run at you if you bother it. The Large Eye will move towards you with mouth open if you choose to bother it. The Deerclops will walk towards you and then attack you if you let it approach you while growling from the distance. The Big Skeleton will swing its head at you and make bones from sky if you choose to slot the key in and bother it. The Bee Queen will fly in your direction and sting you with big stinger if you bother it by hammer. Damn, this game is lame.

Deerclopes can and will destory things you want if you run away assuming you don't know about being able to ditch him. Bee queen is a boss fight so your required to fight her if you want her stuff notice i didn't say anything about ocean bosses large wur could mean multiple things so I'm not sure what your referencing but I'm not even sure why bosses are being brought up in a mob discussion in a optional area I'm willing to continue this later if you want but for now i gotta go.

[finn from human]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Deerclopes can and will destory things you want if you run away assuming you don't know about being able to ditch him.

Does that not require player interaction for the structures you want to be placed down? And for you to even be near those structures when Deerclops spawns?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Just-guy said:

This doesn't mean the majority of playerbase do it, only that the people you play with do.

that was my point about the other comment talking about "90% of players he played with turn them off"

glad you understood it

[Catteflyterpill]

There's valid concern in wanting more difficulty and challenge in the game. It makes sailing and finding new locations feel like more of a reward. I can also see how raid mechanics can get annoying really fast. But the way some of you guys are voicing your criticisms feels sarcastic and spiteful and makes it hard to side with anybody's views. This is a forum, we should voice our criticisms for the game in a way that helps improve it. Doesn't mean we have to be at eachother's throats to do it. 

[. . .]

Pirate monkeys are perfectly balanced the way they are now, if you don't like them then disable them just like how some players don't like fire hounds burning all their base and disable them.