Should Woodie's Wereforms be able to interact with his inventory?

[Memetan]

I saw some people complaining about Woodie's wereforms because you can't heal yourself, you can't really get out of the wereform,  only standing still until your hunger bar gets to 0 even during full moon. So I though, Why not make his wereforms be able to interact with his inventory? So if you need healing, just heal yourself as normal, if the weremeter gets low just eat food to fill it up or eat another idol-monster meat, and if you want to go back to normal without starving eat... Living logs?

Well, there are some of my suggestions, but the point is the same, do you think Woodie's wereforms should interact with his inventory? If the answer is yes, How the wereforms will interact? Thanks for your time.

[Riddla]

Might interfere a bit with balancing, you essentially obtain expensive materials at the cost of some monster meat. I think it would be cooler instead to interact with items on the ground, e.g. Weremoose performing Bearger's eating animation for food on the ground. Being able to also keep an amulet equipped in wereforms would be incredibly helpful, since there are a lot of fun things to take advantage of, whether it be a chill amulet combined with weremoose's enormous damage reduction, or a magi for extra speed, maybe also lazy forager picking up in weregoose form.

[skile]

I'm unsure how i feel about it. I think it would make wereforms more convinent to use, but at the same time make them less unique? maybe it's not such a big deal though. 

I still think upgraded versions of idols for better transformations, coupled with a way to prevent the transformation could help with some troubles(for example, upgraded Moose could get hp regen similar to  WereWilba(probably less powerful regen though, due to Moose having high defense)and more damage from ramming into mobs, goose could get even more speed and insulation, Beaver... no idea tbh). 

 

[BonesJrOfficial]

29 minutes ago, Riddla said:

Might interfere a bit with balancing, you essentially obtain expensive materials at the cost of some monster meat. I think it would be cooler instead to interact with items on the ground, e.g. Weremoose performing Bearger's eating animation for food on the ground. Being able to also keep an amulet equipped in wereforms would be incredibly helpful, since there are a lot of fun things to take advantage of, whether it be a chill amulet combined with weremoose's enormous damage reduction, or a magi for extra speed, maybe also lazy forager picking up in weregoose form.

Not sure how you question the balancing of eating food or interacting with items, and then immediately propose being able to equip amulets. I think the later is much more game breaking.

[Riddla]

1 hour ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

Not sure how you question the balancing of eating food or interacting with items, and then immediately propose being able to equip amulets. I think the later is much more game breaking.

Sorry, I didn't think this through. I want to know more about this whole "interacting with inventory" thing, like are you able to use special items in wereforms? Is inventory just available to use foods, or specific things? Or are you able to use everything from it?

On paper, it does sound nuts, but at the same time, his forms sooner or later get outclassed the more you progress. His weremoose, for example, can be replaced with a marble suit and ham bat, without a penalty of being unable to use any other items, especially healing, and night vision becomes redundant with many light sources you can prepare in advance, such as a lantern, star caller, etc.

Amulets still take a lot of effort and magic to obtain, and by this point if you know how to make these, you won't be having much trouble overall obtaining the right tools to replace totem's powers.

EDIT: Now I am stupidly contradicting myself after saying "you essentially obtain expensive materials at the cost of some monster meat.". What I wanted to say is that Wereforms should allow you to only use specific items, outside of inventory or with inventory, but with interesting drawbacks or nuances. Healing food can be way too strong early-game, because weremoose grants tons of damage and damage reduction, but it can be fine once you get deeper into the game. No clue what to suggest.

[Mysterious box]

I feel like letting him interact with his inventory is fine balance for most things is more or less out the window however him being able to eat more idols to extend the form is a straight no from me as that pretty removes the need to maintain hunger woodie has been pretty heavily power creeped in basically all aspects as it stands and him being able to eat food in his wereforms wouldn't be close to a game breaking feature so long as he can't equip items.

[BonesJrOfficial]

 

I think this Reddit post really highlights something very important.

Transforming is very cheap and the abilities you get are very good in comparison to the materials put into the transformation. Sure you might not be able to heal, and your DPS is slightly less than that of a fresh hambat... but as long as you have some decent sanity and health before you transform, you can accomplish very much.

Earlier someone mentioned amulets to be worn in transformation. Honestly I thought about this more and I think it's an alright idea. I even think woodie should be able to craft special amulets. When he transforms he keeps his backpack, so keeping an amulet wouldn't be much to program at all. Maybe his can be like living logs and rope and they can be carved into special shapes for special abilities. Like for health and sanity management. 

 

[Cheggf]

The forms are incredibly cheap and very useful in many situations. Giving them the ability to wear amulets and use his inventory would dumb the character down a lot and just want him to use the forms for everything.

[Mysterious box]

56 minutes ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

 

I think this Reddit post really highlights something very important.

Transforming is very cheap and the abilities you get are very good in comparison to the materials put into the transformation. Sure you might not be able to heal, and your DPS is slightly less than that of a fresh hambat... but as long as you have some decent sanity and health before you transform, you can accomplish very much.

Earlier someone mentioned amulets to be worn in transformation. Honestly I thought about this more and I think it's an alright idea. I even think woodie should be able to craft special amulets. When he transforms he keeps his backpack, so keeping an amulet wouldn't be much to program at all. Maybe his can be like living logs and rope and they can be carved into special shapes for special abilities. Like for health and sanity management. 

 

I think allowing were forms to eat would still be fine it's not like this is particularly impressive even less so with the extra sanity, hunger, and hp you'll be losing just from fighting like this in the first place.

[BonesJrOfficial]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I think allowing were forms to eat would still be fine it's not like this is particularly impressive even less so with the extra sanity, hunger, and hp you'll be losing just from fighting like this in the first place.

The forms definitely have much to be desired. Early game it's incredible. Past day 15, you're sort of on bar if not at a disadvantage certainly by the end of winter. By year 2 and especially year 3 woodie falls so very far behind. His forms are a hindrance rather than something powerful. Full moon becomes a dread rather than a boon. His downside which is really an upside is chopping trees faster and more tree guardian spawn rate. But you'd rather just have bearger be your chainsaw anyways. 

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

The forms definitely have much to be desired. Early game it's incredible. Past day 15, you're sort of on bar if not at a disadvantage certainly by the end of winter. By year 2 and especially year 3 woodie falls so very far behind. His forms are a hindrance rather than something powerful. Full moon becomes a dread rather than a boon. His downside which is really an upside is chopping trees faster and more tree guardian spawn rate. But you'd rather just have bearger be your chainsaw anyways. 

Personally I feel like the moose falls off the moment you get access to alchemy, the beaver for the most part stays somewhat useful but fails immediately vs maxwell or wurt in the early game.

Overall tho feel like some small changes could give the first 2 some niche advantages for example

Allow were beaver to collect logs as he moves and put it on a log counter instead of a inventory then have them all drop out around him when the form ends in stacks of 20.

For moose allow him to use food but it won't recover his hunger instead 5% of it's hunger is added to it's healing and remove his movement speed penalty.

I personally feel like goose is fine for what it is.

[BonesJrOfficial]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I feel like the moose falls off the moment you get access to alchemy, the beaver for the most part stays somewhat useful but fails immediately vs maxwell or wurt in the early game.

Overall tho feel like some small changes could give the first 2 some niche advantages for example

Allow were beaver to collect logs as he moves and put it on a log counter instead of a inventory then have them all drop out around him when the form ends in stacks of 20.

For moose allow him to use food but it won't recover his hunger instead 5% of it's hunger is added to it's healing and remove his movement speed penalty.

I personally feel like goose is fine for what it is.

Moose could get buffed from 90 to 95% defense. And an attack speed increase, slightly faster than normal swinging speed would go a long way, he is punching with alternating hands. Normal movement speed too.

Beaver collecting logs would be great. Even if there was a limit and once you hit it they all dropped ok your position. Limit would prevent server crash probably.

I agree. Goose is alright how it is. Good mobility and runs on water. Gnarly. 

[W0l0l0]

I think it's a futile attempt to try and balance something for late game that is also accessible day 1 without adding gimmicks. Which is why I suggest exactly that.

I don't think allowing amulets to be equipable in were-forms would be game breaking. In fact, I'd even like slower usage for them when used as so, mostly so that Magiluminecence can be used without risk of it breaking.

Some gathering perk for the Beaver is ideal. Even with a instantaneous cutting speed, having to do one tree at a time, and paying health, resources, and so much vulnerability just isn't worth it when you have to go back and pick everything up anyways. My best bet is to be able to "eat" items to put them into inventory. Faster collection is very rare in this game and I would welcome such a change. 

The other two forms I feel are fine, though since they are accessible early on and don't do much unique (biggest exception being the moose charge), they are doomed to be outclassed later on. My fix for this would be to add support structures that the forms can interact with.

Structure idea: Healing Pillar. 

When the Moose or Beaver attack this pillar it is destroyed and releases health to nearby allies. 

Structure idea: Were-Pillar

A structure that increases were - meter when within the vicinity, or replenishes a lot when destroyed, whichever idea is more interesting (the former idea would also work with goose). Could spoil over time. 

Structure idea: Boost Gate

Gives goose a speed boost for a minute or so and increases the duration of the moose charge when nearby.

Structure idea: Battering Buff

After destruction of this structure, it would grant the Moose immunity to slowdown when charging through structures, cuttables, and mineables. This would come at the cost of health for every structure destroyed while under these effects. For the Beaver, it would allow one-shotting of anything that can be gnawed (except mobs, of course!!). 

Structure idea: Human Shrine

This structure would act as the opposite of the Were-Pillar and either instantly change a form back after one use, or drain were-meter when nearby. Not sure which yet. There could be a version of both. 

These structures should allow the forms to be expanded upon with interaction, while keeping them inherently simple, and identical to their current early game.

As for Lucy. I feel she needs a reason to be kept around. I suggest allowing forms to last 20% longer when she's on the floor nearby, giving her a use outside of cutting, even if it is minor. 

Lastly, I think Woodie could really do with something to help with the moon cycle when mysterious energy comes around. I can't see how the game can continue as them when they transform literally every single day. I'm not sure what it should be, perhaps a special hat, I don't know.

To answer the original question: Should Woodie be able to interact with with his inventory in were-form? I don't think he should. Were-forms should have risk to them and I love how they are balanced. Definitely can do with more interaction, but the limitations of them are almost as interesting as their advantages. 

These are my thoughts and ideas, I'm very slowly learning to mod and when I get home I might show one of the pillars I drew. Let me know what potential problems there could be, or your own ideas for structures! 

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

Please for the love of god, do not let him manage inventory in his wereforms. Woodie is already ranking very high (often highest) in most "What's your favourite rework?" type polls. It would dumb him down tremendously.

16 hours ago, Cheggf said:

The forms are incredibly cheap and very useful in many situations. Giving them the ability to wear amulets and use his inventory would dumb the character down a lot and just want him to use the forms for everything.

• Life giving amulet - sure why not?
• nightmare amulet - sure, why not?
• lazy forager - the amulet could get some love, not that it's useless now, but this sounds like perfect fit
• chilled amulet:
  • woodie already got insulation, not much effect here
  • the sanity gain is small in comparison with his sanity drain, coupled with the fact one form takes 66% of 1 amulet...
  • the freezing could be a bit op, but it's only 6 minutes and 1/33 is reduced with every hit, so it wouldn't even last for his whole form
  • conclusion, this one doesn't dumb it down either
• construction amulet - no effect
• magiluminescence - the only really strong option - in goose form i wouldn't mind it, but for moose it would be pretty strong. no use for the light though, so i wouldn't really mind it either.

...so i diesagree with you on the amulets part.

20 hours ago, BonesJrOfficial said:

Not sure how you question the balancing of eating food or interacting with items, and then immediately propose being able to equip amulets. I think the later is much more game breaking.

I disagree. Foods for HP and Sanity are more important than anything the amulets will do for you. Same with picking armor, because you got insane and are on a timer before you turn back and the terrorbeaks catch up with your backpacked human form.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i dont see why this should be a thing. They can tweek some numbers for the weremoose and goose to make them more convenient even in late game but woodie is already a really good and fun character, this suggestion only makes him less unique and needing less knowledge and being careful when his only downside outside of moonstorms is managing his transformations when used

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont see why this should be a thing. They can tweek some numbers for the weremoose and goose to make them more convenient even in late game but woodie is already a really good and fun character, this suggestion only makes him less unique and needing less knowledge and being careful when his only downside outside of moonstorms is managing his transformations when used

I'm not sure number tweaks are enough to save the moose unless they overly swing it as the moose your more likely to get hit because your slower and attack slower while not being able to heal those facts alone make the moose alot less favorable for most boss fights what you'd think it's intended purpose would be considering it's a fighting mode. This is why suggest letting him eat food in the mode to at least making fighting as moose abit more worth it survival wise.

As for goose I still think it's good for what it is.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm not sure number tweaks are enough to save the moose unless they overly swing it as the moose your more likely to get hit because your slower and attack slower while not being able to heal those facts alone make the moose alot less favorable for most boss fights what you'd think it's intended purpose would be considering it's a fighting mode. This is why suggest letting him eat food in the mode to at least making fighting as moose abit more worth it survival wise.

As for goose I still think it's good for what it is.

sure eating would be a nice improvement but i dont really like it because his form/s have been always uneable to use inventory (in wilba makes some sense cuz crazy hunger drain). i would be really happy if they increase the armor given to 95% to match marble armor (already yas the speed debuff so why not?), some stunlock resistance because makes sense that a big strong guy resist hits and makes sense mechanically talking too because one of the uses for this form is crowd control which is dangerous when you have slow speed and cant heal. Also more damage or atack speed to atleast match hambat dps cuz doesnt make sense to have less dps than one of the cheapest weapons and way less than the common dark sword, increasing the damage will give a reason to be used in late game in certain situations

anyways is already fun, i had a lot of fun cleaning the ruins as him or farming mant spider queens and tree guards at the same time even in late but giving utility outside of being fun would be cool

tbh what kills woodie right now for me isn't late game utility but moonstorms, doesnt look fun dealing with the curse every ~6min

[Notecja]

Not sure about interacting with inventory, BUT I can tell biggest issue/danger for Woodie is when he dies in wereform. That means he will respawn in his wereform without his items, without food, without anything to save "post-transformation" situation, which easily leads to the second death. I like idea of him wearing amulets during transform. But I am unsure about interactiong with whole inventory - if Woodie could heal himself as Weremoose, that would give him sort-of-infinity-cheap armour - but still I think would not hurt if someone would be able to spare a second to use on him salves (as Wortox kinda heal him quicker and faster anyway, but at least healing would not be limited to only Wortox and would optionally allow more cooperation.).

[skile]

9 hours ago, Notecja said:

Not sure about interacting with inventory, BUT I can tell biggest issue/danger for Woodie is when he dies in wereform. That means he will respawn in his wereform without his items, without food, without anything to save "post-transformation" situation, which easily leads to the second death. I like idea of him wearing amulets during transform. But I am unsure about interactiong with whole inventory - if Woodie could heal himself as Weremoose, that would give him sort-of-infinity-cheap armour - but still I think would not hurt if someone would be able to spare a second to use on him salves (as Wortox kinda heal him quicker and faster anyway, but at least healing would not be limited to only Wortox and would optionally allow more cooperation.).

wait, can't you already heal other player Weremoose with healing items? i was sure you could. 

[Notecja]

9 hours ago, skile said:

wait, can't you already heal other player Weremoose with healing items? i was sure you could. 

tried, but could not? So I was sure I cannot. Right now anyway I cannot check it in game.

[Mysterious box]

19 hours ago, Notecja said:

- if Woodie could heal himself as Weremoose, that would give him sort-of-infinity-cheap armour - but still I think would not hurt if someone would be able to spare a second to use on him salves (as Wortox kinda heal him quicker and faster anyway, but at least healing would not be limited to only Wortox and would optionally allow more cooperation.).

This would be far from game breaking even more so compared to the alarming clock. Currently there's no real good reason to use the moose in serious combat situations because of how bad it is for combat compared to alternatives with the negatives being:

-slow dps compared to cheap alternatives

-losing 20 to enter the state and additional hp on turning back due to starving while also draining your sanity

-being slow meaning your more likely to take alot more hits and having a tougher kiting window

-being vulnerable when your turning back

Simply put were moose is a combat disadvantaged state you put yourself in for how fun and cool it looks in it's current state it's inferior to just fighting as woodie

[Psychic Chicken]

If this change was made, Woodie would remove the need of armor for bosses and many other scenarios, imo it's fine as is.

[Notecja]

35 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This would be far from game breaking even more so compared to the alarming clock. Currently there's no real good reason to use the moose in serious combat situations because of how bad it is for combat compared to alternatives with the negatives being:

-slow dps compared to cheap alternatives

-losing 20 to enter the state and additional hp on turning back due to starving while also draining your sanity

-being slow meaning your more likely to take alot more hits and having a tougher kiting window

-being vulnerable when your turning back

Simply put were moose is a combat disadvantaged state you put yourself in for how fun and cool it looks in it's current state it's inferior to just fighting as woodie

Actually "charge" is quite powerful against hordes BUT require skill (turning back moment). Also somebody on forum left once tips for leaving combat, healing, and returning at little cost - unfortunatelly my memory is kinda bad to remind who was that. The only problems I had were skill issues my bad internet connection. DPS might be slower, but you are paying with "only" 20 hp and some monster meat, instead of nightmare fuel, or thulecite. Even more powerful when not playing alone - leaves more resources for others and still you can tank/randomly join fight etc. From my point fight is nicely balanced, and the biggest issue is dying as weremoose and losing inventory, which is rather post-fight situation.

(also leaving him without any vulnerabilities would be just boring. Like pre-rework WX)

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

DPS might be slower, but you are paying with "only" 20 hp and some monster meat,

Or you could at the cheapest pay 2 meats, 1 pig skin and twigs with a pig skin and rope to deal more overall damage a much lower chance to get hit and no additional sanity drain or hp drain from the few seconds of starving you can't avoid the moose isn't even in the same playing field as the higher tier gear so there's no point in comparing it to dark swords or thulecite gear. Your only screwing yourself over if your trying to use the in harder fights you can use it but your not gaining a actual advantage.

 

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

Actually "charge" is quite powerful against hordes BUT require skill (turning back moment)

As for the charge it does help to finish fights faster but you often loose a fair amount of the spoils due to them being eaten so it's usually better to just fighting them normally unless you really don't care about those specific drops again at most it's a fun mode but that's about it.

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

(also leaving him without any vulnerabilities would be just boring. Like pre-rework WX)

Giving him the ability to heal doesn't remove his vulnerabilities completely it just makes his transformation slightly more viable to use in tougher fights.