Could Wolfgang get Bonus Mightyness from Bosses?

[JazzyGames]

I wanted to give a quick take on Wolfgang's new mechanics affecting his mightiness meter and offer a suggestion for improvement.

Firstly, I love the new methods for gaining mightyness (working, fighting, walking w/ dumbbell). I especially appreciate them because they don't require Wolf to take time off of whatever he is doing to restore his mightyness. I rushed the ruins today and, between all of the fighting, hammering, and mining, I only had to use a dumbbell a few times. Most of the time my mightiness was completely topped off; an absolute treat.

So now Wolfgang loses mightyness when he takes damage, and this loss is not affected by how much the damage is reduced via armor. This concerns me a bit during boss fights where a bit of damage is to be expected, especially because there is very little that Wolfgang can do to avoid certain attacks. In a fast-paced boss fight there is not always time to back off and restore mightyness without running the risk of despawning a boss.

Would it be possible to give Wolfgang some bonus mightyness when fighting bosses? Wigfrid gets extra inspiration points from boss fights so there's a bit of precedent for such a mechanic. I think that would solve the issue of Wolfgang losing tons of mightyness during boss fights; if he's actively fighting and not losing tons of health then it seems unfair for Wolf to lose 10+ mightyness from a single hit that'll take a dozen hits just to restore.

[UbiAnomaly]

22 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

Would it be possible to give Wolfgang some bonus mightiness when fighting bosses?

Quote

• Wolfgang now gains mightiness while attacking, based on the target’s max health.

I would very much like if this feature was made more prevalent. The difference in mightiness gain is almost unnoticeable.

 

[JazzyGames]

5 minutes ago, UbiAnomaly said:

I would very much like if this feature was made more noticeable. The difference in mightiness gain is almost unnoticeable.

Honestly I didn't notice any difference between hitting a bishop and hitting Fuelweaver. It could probably stand for some tweaking.

[Hornete]

25 minutes ago, UbiAnomaly said:

[snip]

Huh, speaking about that patch note, perhaps I'm looking at the code wrong but the calculations for mightiness gain on hit doesn't seem to take into account the health of the target?

From what i'm reading in the code it sounds like Wolfgang gains 1 mightiness upon hitting an enemy with the "epic" tag(so bosses), .25 mightiness for mobs with the "smallcreature" tag(should explain itself, but rabbits and etc), and .5 mightiness for everything else.

I'll have to test in-game, for now, Im busy with the new RoR2 DLC hehe

[ScottHansen]

40 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

In a fast-paced boss fight there is not always time to back off and restore mightyness without running the risk of despawning a boss.

We will be tweaking the amount of might lost when damaged. As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

[Toroic]

20 minutes ago, ScottHansen said:

We will be tweaking the amount of might lost when damaged. As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

It's a totally viable strategy to either use just the dumbbells to attack with or to weave in dumbell hits alongside a standard weapon depending on what you're doing (full tanking will require more dumbell hits to stay mighty).

It doesn't really make sense outside of a pure mechanics standpoint to lose muscle mass when attacked, but the gameplay loop is engaging and I think people will quickly adapt their strategies.

[Owlrust]

If I may, what about the possibility of might being consistently "drained" within proximity of a boss? That would better encourage players to engage more in the fight directly, benefiting his ability to wear marble armor with no speed penalty and to tank more freely. He will consistently lose might based on the insanity aura of any epic mob, and the might he gains per hit could be proportional to the damage he deals depending on form. The drain would harm Wolfgangs that take little part in the fight and/or run away from bosses, and would even play into his "fear" downside a bit.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

53 minutes ago, ScottHansen said:

We will be tweaking the amount of might lost when damaged. As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

if the amound of might lost is reduced that strategy would be valid imo

[JazzyGames]

2 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons.

Thanks, Scott. I had no idea that this was a thing. May have been buried in the patch notes and I missed it. But yeah I'll check it out with some fights and see how it goes.

[lakhnish]

2 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

I did the first 20 days as Wolfgang. I killed Ancient Guardian, Bee Queen, Dragonfly, and Eye of Terror.

For Bee Queen, I got hit by a bunch of grumbles and had to manually pump in order to gain my mightiness back, as there wasn't any other opportunity to hit BQ with the marbell (too many mobs in the form of the grumble bees). I only had to do that once though and just attacking regularly normally kept me mighty (granted I was using the Panflute spam strategy).

For Dragonfly, I had to on multiple occasions use the Marbell as a weapon since I was kiting Dfly very poorly. The main problem wasn't really using the Marbell as a weapon but rather the going mighty animation. I can't always control the mighty number if I was kiting poorly, so I would go mighty, get stuck in the animation, then get hit by Dfly, and go back to the normal state and try to get mighty again by attacking with the Marbell.

So my feedback is that attacking with the marbell wasn't the problem but rather the animation that Wolfgang goes through when changing states. I'm guessing it's cause the player gets locked into the animation. (Slightly reducing the amount of mightiness loss when hit by bosses would be good too, but otherwise, it's not too big an issue based on the run I did, at least, so long as you avoid taking a lot of damage).

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

We will be tweaking the amount of might lost when damaged. As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

I think the mightiness gain is good, especially with dumbbells, but the issue with might in combat (other than the thresholds for going up & down being the same) is his benefit with marble armor kind of working against itself. If I'm going to get hit enough in a fight where I would want the marble armor's superior protection I'm going to be likely to go down to normal form at least momentarily, and as soon as that happens you gain a huge speed debuff and basically become incapable of dodging which can snowball on itself and lower your health & mightiness even more.

Since normal form takes at least a little effort to stay in and looks visually more muscular than the other survivors maybe the piggyback & marble armor bonus could be extended to that to make them more viable to use in difficult combat situations. Could even give him a minor damage bonus like Wigfrid's in that form to make normal Wolfgang better at fighting than Wilson but worse than characters like Wigfrid, Wendy, or Wanda (and I think the precedent is set with Wanda's incremental damage), but really it's the marble armor abruptly slowing you to a crawl and ending up being more detrimental than helpful that I think is worth looking at.

Unless it's intended for marble armor to be a weird armor that makes you take very little damage but should you actually end up taking a considerable amount of damage it turns coat and starts working against you. I was able to use it successfully so it isn't worthless but I think its interaction with Wolfgang is a bit weird. Just thought I'd bring it up.

[Scolytus]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Unless it's intended for marble armor to be a weird armor that makes you take very little damage but should you actually end up taking a considerable amount of damage it turns coat and starts working against you. I was able to use it successfully so it isn't worthless but I think its interaction with Wolfgang is a bit weird. Just thought I'd bring it up.

I agree, I feel like there should be some sort of might bonus while wearing heavy items (piggy back, marble suit). It makes sense that carrying these things around would be a workout, so either reduce mightiness lost when hit or have a constant mightiness gain while equipped?

[JazzyGames]

2 hours ago, Scolytus said:

I agree, I feel like there should be some sort of might bonus while wearing heavy items (piggy back, marble suit). It makes sense that carrying these things around would be a workout, so either reduce mightiness lost when hit or have a constant mightiness gain while equipped?

Makes a ton of sense to reduce mightiness lost to damage while wearing marble armor.

[MondayNight]

As others stated already, new Wolf's con of taking Mighty! damage-reduction (in current amount) is antithetical to his other pros, like Marble Armor use without speed penalty, making it not only redundant, but hazardous when coupled with his resizing animation. Two obvious and quick solutions would be: the fixed-value for Mighty! loss upon hit halved or make it armor-dependent, akin damage (for latter example, in case of Marble Suit - a 95% fixed-value reduction, Thulecite Suit - a 90% fixed-value reduction and-so-on).

[lakhnish]

On 3/1/2022 at 5:09 PM, ScottHansen said:

We will be tweaking the amount of might lost when damaged. As for restoring might during combat, have you tried attacking with a dumbbell until your might is back to where you want it? The might gain from attacking with dumbbells should be substantially more than attacking with weapons. I'm curious to see people's feedback on using this strategy.

I'm making an update to my previous comment as I did another 20-day run today as Wolfgang (AG, BQ + Dfly).

In my first run, I did not realize that during Wolfgang's normal phase, the attack animation of the dumbbell was the slow one (the same one as attacking with a fist). That made attacking with the dumbell pretty bad (I was using the Marbell) since you are just better off attacking manually since it's faster and avoid getting stuck in a loop of going mighty -> get hit -> go unmighty.

Attacking with the Marbell is only good if Wolfgang is already mighty since he swings the Marbell at a normal speed so that he can maintain mightiness if you take a lot of damage. But for bosses like Dfly and BQ, you really don't have the opportunity to hits them with a dumbbell since those fights are more fast faced (especially Dfly, where you don't really have the opportunity to manually pump the dumbell in the first place).

I think it'd be better if the dumbbell had a normal attack rate for normal Wolfgang and that the animation could be skipped/ignored, otherwise you just get stuck into a loop of slowly getting mighty, getting hit, losing mightiness, and repeat until you can make some breathing room (if at all).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

30 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

I'm making an update to my previous comment as I did another 20-day run today as Wolfgang (AG, BQ + Dfly).

In my first run, I did not realize that during Wolfgang's normal phase, the attack animation of the dumbbell was the slow one (the same one as attacking with a fist). That made attacking with the dumbell pretty bad (I was using the Marbell) since you are just better off attacking manually since it's faster and avoid getting stuck in a loop of going mighty -> get hit -> go unmighty.

Attacking with the Marbell is only good if Wolfgang is already mighty since he swings the Marbell at a normal speed so that he can maintain mightiness if you take a lot of damage. But for bosses like Dfly and BQ, you really don't have the opportunity to hits them with a dumbbell since those fights are more fast faced (especially Dfly, where you don't really have the opportunity to manually pump the dumbell in the first place).

I think it'd be better if the dumbbell had a normal attack rate for normal Wolfgang and that the animation could be skipped/ignored, otherwise you just get stuck into a loop of slowly getting mighty, getting hit, losing mightiness, and repeat until you can make some breathing room (if at all).

and for fights like shadow pieces lvl2, if you get stunlock is so hard to become mighty again. I didnt try twins for terror but i guess 1 mistake and you are done unless you put them to sleep

[lakhnish]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and for fights like shadow pieces lvl2, if you get stunlock is so hard to become mighty again. I didnt try twins for terror but i guess 1 mistake and you are done unless you put them to sleep

That reminded me that I was going through the same thing in the ruins. Wolfgang was having a hard time staying mighty in the basic 2 rooks, 1 Bishop rooms. Oof

[Toroic]

I have two suggestions for this:

1) Allow players to cancel the becoming mighty animation.  No one likes losing control of their character.

2) Instead of the current system where you lose mightiness based on the pre-mitigation value, make it half the post-mitigation value.

Currently Deerclops does 75 damage and removes 12 mightiness per hit in all armors and the math is complicated for how much mightiness you lose.

Instead, with no armor deerclops would remove 37.5 mightiness, with wooden armor 7.5 mightiness, and with marble armor 1.875 mightiness.

This would encourage wolfgang to kite well in lower absorption armors, but still allow synergy with marble armor for tanking.

Most people feel current numbers are too harsh, and this would increase the punishment for a big screw up (taking damage with no armor on) and support both tanking and kiting.

Celestial champion is another case where the current scaling doesn’t work well, because while it’s expected that you have the best armor and weapons available by the time you fight CC to mitigate the damage, the high base damage and multi hits can absolutely tear through Wolfgang’s health pool.

It’s a good downside, but doesn’t scale well for better-geared fights in the late game.

[reallychina]

I said i'm going to keep myself out of this because of the clusterfuck and disrespect that was the klei ignorance to the thousands of comments on the initial wolfgang rework.

 

but apparently i like wolfgang so much i can't help standing by watching it get worse and worse.

 

Right now playing wolfgang vs some bosses is more dangerous than playing old Wanda. There are so many contradictions about all of this. He's supposed to be strong, he has his own marble suit buff for tanking, yet if you tank a few hits with him, you're screwed.

Assuming you're wearing the marble suit, which again, is supposed to be one of his strongest assets, and you're making one bad move and lose mighty (which is only 3 or 4 hits from a boss), you get a 30% speed penalty. You can now no longer kite and have to take off armor to move away from fights.

And that's not even the worst part. Gaining mighty from hitting is obviously slower than the loss from tanking, so you can't tank. Ok, so they buffed the bells so you get bonus points from attacking with them.

Except the bell damage is trash, even for gembells that are now expensive costing 2 thulecite each (and thulecite club is 4). So you go down from 136 (dark sword) to 85 with a gembell.

And that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that if//when you lose mightyness, your attack speed significantly decreases, which means three things:

1. further dps loss due to low attack speed

2. halved dps because you're not mighty.

3. much slower mightyness gain compared to the gain you get when attacking and being mighty, again due to attack speed

Oh wait, there's more, and this is the worst part. Now you're also stuck in mighty switch animations when swinging bells, you hit, get mighty, get hit, go normal and repeat ad nauseam, losing control of your character

 

Now combine that with the marble suit 30% speed penalty and you're ****** in a boss fight. 

 

Normally i'd now write some stuff about fixing this but considering klei's former track record with listening to suggestions on wolfgang, i won't.

 

edit: oh nice, i now have to wait for mod approval to post because i've been critical of klei in the past. how cool is that

[Cloakingsumo198]

I've said this when the beta first came out and it didn't get much traction but i'll say it again cause I think it would help.

I think instead of losing mighty instantly when hit, it should be an overtime tick down like how wanda's health drains maybe even the same speed.  It could start off fast but then tapers off 3/4's of the way so the player can manuever away or try to get some hits in to offset the drain to avoid changing form.

If the drain takes 4-5 seconds to fully set in, fast enough players can easily get 2-3 swings in with a dumbbell to nullify the incoming mighty damage, new players get some time to runaway or panic, and it would slightly help with tanking.

I feel like there is room to make the drain complicated but function better, for example big hits from big damage sources like bosses can cause a fast drain to cause urgency, while scratches from sma!ler damage sources like spiders and bees can cause a slower drain that stacks easier. While DoT like fire, freezing, starving should still be instant.

Wolf already gains mighty by different amounts depending on the mob he is attacking, so I think losing mighty differently depending on the source isn't too far off.

[Toroic]

Hey, it looks like some people liked my suggestion and I made an (unlisted) mod so it can be tested so I can get some feedback.

Link: 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2774479029

Description:

"Wolfgang now loses mightiness when hit based on how much actual damage he takes after armor mitigation.

Basically, you lose half as much mightiness as health when you are hit by an enemy.

On Deerclops, the old amount lost was:

No armor: 12 mightiness
Wood armor: 12 mightiness
Marble armor: 12 mightiness

New amount lost from being hit by Deerclops:

No armor: 37.5 mightiness
Wood armor: 7.5 mightiness
Marble armor: 1.875 mightiness"

I believe this still retains a reasonable level of risk, and makes understanding how much health you're going to lose per hit very simple.

Edit: I also added the ability to cancel the animations that play when Wolfgang changes form.

[Cannoli]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Hey, it looks like some people liked my suggestion and I made an (unlisted) mod so it can be tested so I can get some feedback.

Link: 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2774479029

Description:

"Wolfgang now loses mightiness when hit based on how much actual damage he takes after armor mitigation.

Basically, you lose half as much mightiness as health when you are hit by an enemy.

On Deerclops, the old amount lost was:

No armor: 12 mightiness
Wood armor: 12 mightiness
Marble armor: 12 mightiness

New amount lost from being hit by Deerclops:

No armor: 37.5 mightiness
Wood armor: 7.5 mightiness
Marble armor: 1.875 mightiness"

I believe this still retains a reasonable level of risk, and makes understanding how much health you're going to lose per hit very simple.

Edit: I also added the ability to cancel the animations that play when Wolfgang changes form.

In theory: way better than we have today in beta. Cgrts.

My point: why this perk exists?? Just remove the idea (lose mighty when hit), because it is terrible by definition.

If the "correction" is turn it irrelevant, than the problem is its existence anyway. 

I really don't know why but Klei wants new Wolfgang players have perfect kite, and never tank (like Wigfrid, Wendy, Warly, WX, even Wilson can do). Why?

They already made a "perfect kitting character" = Wanda. Why change Wolfgang into this? I will never understand. 

[Keller Max]

2 hours ago, Toros said:

Hey, it looks like some people liked my suggestion and I made an (unlisted) mod so it can be tested so I can get some feedback.

Link: 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2774479029

Description:

"Wolfgang now loses mightiness when hit based on how much actual damage he takes after armor mitigation.

Basically, you lose half as much mightiness as health when you are hit by an enemy.

On Deerclops, the old amount lost was:

No armor: 12 mightiness
Wood armor: 12 mightiness
Marble armor: 12 mightiness

New amount lost from being hit by Deerclops:

No armor: 37.5 mightiness
Wood armor: 7.5 mightiness
Marble armor: 1.875 mightiness"

I believe this still retains a reasonable level of risk, and makes understanding how much health you're going to lose per hit very simple.

Edit: I also added the ability to cancel the animations that play when Wolfgang changes form.

This is actually Genius! More risk when you are unprotected

[Duck986]

2 hours ago, Toros said:

Mod.

Yep, that's exactly what I want to see in game. Maybe with slight correction, but you got the idea.