Heat: Gimme

[GuyPerfect]

I know I'm barking up the wrong tree when what I want to do in a game doesn't have a page on that game's community wiki, but it is as they say: invention is the mother of necessity.

Here's what I'm after... I may or may not want to put certain resources on display on Pedestals. These resources need to be of particular above-average temperatures. Obviously there are some limitations to this: I can't be showcasing bottles of Magma, for instance. But I want to curate--erm, I want to maintain a stockpile of resources that only exist at higher temperatures. Specifically, things that are solids or liquids at lower temperatures.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and I've decided that somewhere is Super Coolant, which remains a gas at 437°C. This also happens to be hot enough to maintain exhibits--I mean, caches of gaseous Sulfur as well as molten Lead.

My question is, how do I make things hot and keep them hot? I'll need to research some materials, since there isn't a lot that likes to continue operating at 500 degrees, but methods for maintaining that kind of environment aren't exactly springing to mind.

Failing that, is a vacuum-sealed environment a suitable alternative to a super-heated one? With nothing to exchange thermal energy with (except the Pedestal, which itself could be built from a super-heated material), will things stay hot forever? Or does the game feature some kind of thermal radiation mechanic that renders the vacuum idea a non-starter?

As a last resort, I could open up a Magma channel and dump in something to use as the super-heated atmosphere for a thermally-insulated corridor. Practically, I'd be limited to the thermal energy in the available Magma, but if all I can say is that my collection will remain in effect until the molten core of the planet cools off, I imagine that's enough time for the prospect to run its course.

[tuxii]

The question is: Do bottles/canisters exchange heat with the pedestal they are on if the area is vacuum?

I'm guessing no, which means you'd be all set.

If they do, you could try pedestals made out of insulation.

[babba]

1 hour ago, tuxii said:

The question is: Do bottles/canisters exchange heat with the pedestal they are on if the area is vacuum?

I'm guessing no, which means you'd be all set.

If they do, you could try pedestals made out of insulation.

Pedestal made out of ceramic ? I have no fancier material currently in my colony...My 5 cents

[nakomaru]

Vacuum will be ideal for this. Pedestals are buildings and won't exchange any heat with debris (the stuff it's holding). Buildings can only exchange heat with the medium of the tile(s) they are inside of (i.e. gas/liquid/solid tiles). However, debris does exchange heat with the tile below it in a vacuum. So make sure the tile below it is also vacuum (i.e. use mesh or airflow tiles).

As to how you should heat up materials to higher and higher temperatures, the metal refinery (example with how-to explanation) is probably suitable here. You can also use space tech aquatuners, rocket exhaust and magma to name a few.

Also, you don't need to worry about the magma or your objects cooling down unless you conduct its heat somewhere. In a vacuum chamber set up like this, the objects on display will never change temperatures.

Make sure to put a sign saying "don't carry molten metals through the water lock".

Unfortunately, as you seem to know, I guess you can't put magma on the pedestals to begin with, so a bottle will have to do.

8 hours ago, GuyPerfect said:

will things stay hot forever? Or does the game feature some kind of thermal radiation mechanic that renders the vacuum idea a non-starter?

8 hours ago, GuyPerfect said:

my collection will remain in effect until the molten core of the planet cools off

As long as you are not conducting heat somewhere else, the temperature will not change, and there is no heat transfer via radiation in the game. So your magma and display room will stay like that forever if properly insulated.

[GuyPerfect]

6 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Vacuum will be ideal for this. Pedestals are buildings and won't exchange any heat with debris (the stuff it's holding). Buildings can only exchange heat with the medium of the tile(s) they are inside of (i.e. gas/liquid/solid tiles). However, debris does exchange heat with the tile below it in a vacuum. So make sure the tile below it is also vacuum (i.e. use mesh or airflow tiles).

An informative read! Thanks for the information. I do have a question about this "tile below it" mechanic. Do you mean that an item on a Pedestal will exchange heat with the tile upon which the Pedestal was built? How will using a Mesh Tile or Airflow Tile change this; isn't that still subject to heat exchange?

 

6 hours ago, nakomaru said:

As to how you should heat up materials to higher and higher temperatures, the metal refinery (example with how-to explanation) is probably suitable here.

I also find this confusing. Is it that the Metal Refinery is able to work with and heat up its coolant even above its own overheat temperature as long as the building itself does not reach those temperatures?

[DolphinWing]

34 minutes ago, GuyPerfect said:

I also find this confusing. Is it that the Metal Refinery is able to work with and heat up its coolant even above its own overheat temperature as long as the building itself does not reach those temperatures?

Yes, the coolant temperature can go above the Metal Refinery's overheat temperature. If you use insulated pipes and a liquid reservoir and a proper coolant, you can heat the coolant to very high temperature as long as Metal Refinery is still within its operation temperature. It is one known controllable method to heat up liquid.

[SackMaggie]

40 minutes ago, GuyPerfect said:

I also find this confusing. Is it that the Metal Refinery is able to work with and heat up its coolant even above its own overheat temperature as long as the building itself does not reach those temperatures?

An output pipe of metal refinery in a vacuum, So no heat exchange content in the pipe, the content also not exchange heat which mean no pipe break (but you have to prime the pipe to desired temp first).

Another point is when the pipe exchange heat the pipe will not break from state change(vapor or condense) if the content is 10% of the maximum pipe capacity (eg. <1kg in liquid pipe or 100g in gas pipe)

[MinhPham]

10 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Vacuum will be ideal for this. Pedestals are buildings and won't exchange any heat with debris (the stuff it's holding). Buildings can only exchange heat with the medium of the tile(s) they are inside of (i.e. gas/liquid/solid tiles). However, debris does exchange heat with the tile below it in a vacuum. So make sure the tile below it is also vacuum (i.e. use mesh or airflow tiles).

As to how you should heat up materials to higher and higher temperatures, the metal refinery (example with how-to explanation) is probably suitable here. You can also use space tech aquatuners, rocket exhaust and magma to name a few.

Also, you don't need to worry about the magma or your objects cooling down unless you conduct its heat somewhere. In a vacuum chamber set up like this, the objects on display will never change temperatures.

Make sure to put a sign saying "don't carry molten metals through the water lock".

Unfortunately, as you seem to know, I guess you can't put magma on the pedestals to begin with, so a bottle will have to do.

As long as you are not conducting heat somewhere else, the temperature will not change, and there is no heat transfer via radiation in the game. So your magma and display room will stay like that forever if properly insulated.

Poor Frankie

[Lomion]

Just in case you forgo the vacuum exhibit and want to actually create hellish display of super hot stuff in scalding temperatures, you can use Thermium to build an aquatuner and heat the space around it up to 1000C. Just need to find where to dump all the insane cooling amount on the other side.

[GuyPerfect]

2 hours ago, Lomion said:

Just need to find where to dump all the insane cooling amount on the other side.

That's easy. I also need a super cold room for displaying ices and foods.

[LadenSwallow]

In case it isn't obvious, you can use a plumber and the empty pipe command to generate the bottles in the room directly, avoiding potential issues with breaking liquid locks. Alternatively, a triple liquid lock (3 liquids stacked at low weight so no packets can split) arranged so dupes jump through the lock should avoid heat transfer.

[GuyPerfect]

When using a liquid airlock, a vacuum environment is pretty much a necessity because of the temperatures that the room would otherwise require. If it's hot enough to vaporize Super Coolant, it's hot enough to vaporize all the conventional liquids. And if the airlock is built from molten metals, the external environment is probably cool enough to freeze it.

[Yobbo]

11 hours ago, LadenSwallow said:

Alternatively, a triple liquid lock (3 liquids stacked at low weight so no packets can split) arranged so dupes jump through the lock should avoid heat transfer.

Hop-locks do not avoid heat transfer. Dupes will still evaporate/freeze them when jumping across with hot/cold materials.

Putting a tempshift plate behind your liquid lock however, does protect them from instantly evaporating/freezing.

But even if you manage this all, can you even put liquids on pedestals if they aren't liquid at room temperature? Last time i tried this with sulphur, it simply woud not appear on the list of things that could be placed. Only solid sulphur was possible.

[tuxii]

You could use liquid uranium for a liquid lock... it would only take over 10 tonnes, need to be kept above 133C and pose a mild radioactive hazard.

That just makes it fun! 

 

[nakomaru]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:31 PM, GuyPerfect said:

How will using a Mesh Tile or Airflow Tile change this; isn't that still subject to heat exchange?

Mesh/Airflow Tiles are special in that they are not really tiles. After all, if they were, then you couldn't have a tile of oxygen inside of one. For the purposes of heat transfer they are actually debris. You can see what is the real tile by putting your mouse over it. So, make it vacuum.

The magma bottle is trying to transfer heat with the tile it's in and the tile that's below - both are vacuum.

Because Mesh/Airflow tiles are actually debris, they will transfer with the tile they are in and the tile below them at 1/4th rate (if the tile they are in doesn't transfer), just like all debris. But debris won't transfer with other debris, for obvious computational complexity problems.

On 2/8/2022 at 11:31 PM, GuyPerfect said:

Do you mean that an item on a Pedestal will exchange heat with the tile upon which the Pedestal was built?

I checked this just to be sure, and the item in the pedestal has unique rules that I haven't seen before. The item in the pedestal acts as debris in the upper tile, so actually it can't reach the tile below the building.

(the aluminum is 600C, everything else stays at 20C)

Once there is medium in the top tile, heat transfer can occur.

Very surprising to me - the aluminum won't transfer heat with the tile that appears below it (water). Just to be sure the debris wasn't considered three tiles above, I built a tile above it, but still no heat transfer occurred. This is rather unique behavior in the game as far as I'm concerned. As ghkbrew explains below, the tile-below rule only applies to solid tiles.

As an example of "the tile below" transfer, here is magma bottle heating up a metal tile in a vacuum.

[ghkbrew]

7 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Very surprising to me - the aluminum won't transfer heat with the tile that appears below it (water)

I believe the "tile below" mechanic only works with solid tiles. I know, for instance, debris on a mesh tile filled with liquid won't exchange heat with the liquid

 

Do I understand correctly that the item on the pedestal is considered to be in the upper tile?

[nakomaru]

8 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

I believe the "tile below" mechanic only works with solid tiles. I know, for instance, debris on a mesh tile filled with liquid won't exchange heat with the liquid

Do I understand correctly that the item on the pedestal is considered to be in the upper tile?

That explains it then - it must have ordinary debris rules and it is considered to be in the upper tile. Still learning.

[Occam Blazer]

On 2/9/2022 at 8:08 AM, GuyPerfect said:

That's easy. I also need a super cold room for displaying ices and foods.

 

Fun trick - food on a pedestal does not rot. At all.

 

[GuyPerfect]

Huh. That's very interesting!