Quick Winona Question

[PetulantPansy]

Not going to speak for everyone but a lot of people view Winona as a switch character where you build some catapults and then continue with what you were doing (as your original/some other character).

 

So if no one else can use Winona's catapults and only she can use them, she will no longer be a switch character right? Lots of people complain that she has nothing special. Again if no one can use her catapults, then she's special again right? I'm just curious if "fixing" Winona would be as simple as making her constructs exclusive to her.

 

It's unfortunate if that is the answer because she's more "team friendly" when other people can use her machines and stuff. 

[Lil K]

Imo making her items exclusive to her is no answer for the "Switch character problem". Just make it so that she has an advantage at using her craft, maybe more fuel for generator or more damage for catapults, etc

[Mike23Ua]

Winona has several kit items, Catapults (Decent I guess) Spotlights (they suck) Gemerators, Duct Tape- Now Duct Tape is unique because it’s similar to a Sewing Kit and can be used to repair clothing, Thermal Stones, Bernie Dolls, And Boat Leaks. Winona also has a built in perk where she can craft a lot of items at a faster rate of speed “Bulk Crafting” However- Everything Winona Builds or Has.. Can be Used by another Character minus the built in Crafting, making her a Pick & Swap character.

Unlike Wendy who’s Abigail Flower can only be used or activated by a Wendy.

Unfortunately making it so Winona’s Stuff is only Useable by Winona would cause the exact opposite effect then what your hoping- Either A: No One Plays her at all anymore unless they just like her as a character, or B: She becomes similar to Wolfgang, used only long enough to take advantage of her abilities & then switched out again.

the TL:DR- If Winona’s Catapults & Duct Tape only worked while playing as Winona, people would swap to Winona long enough to use them and then switch to someone else.

This wouldn’t fix Anything sadly.. Now making the Celestial Portal harder to obtain or use, or even being able to toggle off the ability to build it at all…. THAT would make sure people who pick Winona aren’t just using her for her abilities and swapping out.

[Lil K]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Winona has several kit items, Catapults (Decent I guess) Spotlights (they suck) Gemerators, Duct Tape- Now Duct Tape is unique because it’s similar to a Sewing Kit and can be used to repair clothing, Thermal Stones, Bernie Dolls, And Boat Leaks. Winona also has a built in perk where she can craft a lot of items at a faster rate of speed “Bulk Crafting” However- Everything Winona Builds or Has.. Can be Used by another Character minus the built in Crafting, making her a Pick & Swap character.

Unlike Wendy who’s Abigail Flower can only be used or activated by a Wendy.

Unfortunately making it so Winona’s Stuff is only Useable by Winona would cause the exact opposite effect then what your hoping- Either A: No One Plays her at all anymore unless they just like her as a character, or B: She becomes similar to Wolfgang, used only long enough to take advantage of her abilities & then switched out again.

the TL:DR- If Winona’s Catapults & Duct Tape only worked while playing as Winona, people would swap to Winona long enough to use them and then switch to someone else.

This wouldn’t fix Anything sadly.. Now making the Celestial Portal harder to obtain or use, or even being able to toggle off the ability to build it at all…. THAT would make sure people who pick Winona aren’t just using her for her abilities and swapping out.

It would be way cooler if Klei made Winona more interesting istead of making the process to switch more tedious. Warly also goes trough the same "you pick him, do his special crafts and switch back", but his kit is so creative that staying as him, with his portable crockpot and his food limitations, is way more rewarding. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

that wont make her more interesting at all

can we stop taking into account the portal to make character fun?

[Cheggf]

The problem is that she's boring and has nothing except stationary structures. This isn't doing anything to address her issues, it's just forcing people to play as the boring character and pretending like the small increase of time people spend as her means the problem is solved.

[Mike23Ua]

39 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that wont make her more interesting at all

can we stop taking into account the portal to make character fun?

With 6 updates coming out this year 3 QoL and 3 Setting the Stage for what’s coming next- NOW is the obsolete perfect time to discuss these things.

Tell Me, I can toggle OFF the Terrarium so that the Eye Of Terror Does not Spawn, I can also for some reason unbeknownst to me at this current moment- Toggle OFF the Eye Boss itself but leave the Terrarium toggled ON (this will probably crash my game but I have yet to test it Myself to Confirm) 

So then why In the same way I can toggle Terrarium ON/OFF can I NOT toggle the Celestial Orb On/Off?

There could even be Klei official servers where the Orb spawns & others where it won’t.

Sure it doesn’t directly solve the problem of “Make Winona more fun” but have any of you ever considered that maybe Winona just isn’t fun to you? I personally don’t see a problem with her as a character..

And in fact she has some of the saddest quotes in the game at times 

[ShadowDuelist]

I’d give her the exclusive skill to be able to re-pack and move her own structures (like warly’s portable crock pot).
This makes her less grindy if you stay as her since you can recycle your own stuff and move them to multiple places, and opens the possibility of being able to deploy them in a pinch. To balance it out maybe it consumes a tape each time you re-deploy.

The spotlight should probably be allowed to be turned on and off, and point at a stationary point if you choose to (could be useful at the ocean)

I’d also allow her to be able to repair tools, non-magical armor and non magical weapons by combining 2 low durability ones into a single higher durability item. This is self balanced, as it always requires more of the item you will repair, so you can’t just keep up an axe or a helmet an infinite amount of time with “nothing” or “just tape”, you will need to recycle low durability items you find around, or prevent your own tools from breaking. 
It will just make her more efficient which is fitting to her theme.

Finally New machines, such as a refining mini-factory that only she can operate would be neat too (Eg: when the machine is powered, add 16 wood, obtain 4 boards instantly)

[Atkvin]

I'd give Winona the ability to craft stuff from unique crafting stations like the pseudoscience once she's crafted it once before, in line with her background as a factory worker and crafting focus. Her whole craft a little faster gimmick is cute, but this would make her much more useful and unique compared to a little speed that costs hunger.

It would also help take the edge off Wanda being the only one to access ancient and lunar crafts with ease lategame, which is just unfair.

As for her machines.. agreed with Shadow, let her be able to pack them up, improve spotlight... etc. I can't think of anything for it right now but I really wanted to somehow work blueprints in here somewhere because of her background lol - maybe she can replicate blueprints with papyrus or read them without consuming them or something.

[Vixen Doe]

in my honest opinion 'character swapping' is a non-issue. sure if you WANT to swap out characters that's totally up to you, but there's nothing actively bad about so called swap characters that incentivize people to not want to stay as those characters if they don't want to use their playstyle, and just wanted to make their items, especially in a solo world. it's all a matter of personal preference at the end of the day, and just because a character can make things that are useful for all characters doesn't mean they're bad if they don't have too many other perks

[LinknAllie]

I'll give my opinion on the matter

Remove her.

[UbiAnomaly]

9 minutes ago, LinknAllie said:

Remove her.

Better yet, replace her with Wagstaff.

[Dextops]

18 minutes ago, UbiAnomaly said:

Better yet, replace her with Wagstaff.

k but ngl...
 

i'd rather have winona than wagstaff but they are both kinda eh

[Dr. Safety]

2 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I’d give her the exclusive skill to be able to re-pack and move her own structures (like warly’s portable crock pot).
This makes her less grindy if you stay as her since you can recycle your own stuff and move them to multiple places, and opens the possibility of being able to deploy them in a pinch. To balance it out maybe it consumes a tape each time you re-deploy.

Honestly I love everything else you said, but this specifically is something I really like. I think this alone would really make her a character worth staying and playing.

[PetulantPansy]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

The problem is that she's boring and has nothing except stationary structures. This isn't doing anything to address her issues, it's just forcing people to play as the boring character and pretending like the small increase of time people spend as her means the problem is solved.

Idk if boring is a good way to describe her. She's basically a wilson in the early game. So in your first year or two, she doesn't bring much to the table. However, she has a lot of mid-game perks that are accessible to players of all skill levels. 

 

Her catapults can farm all sorts of stuff (bosses included) and they can be used in a simple houndtrap setup. Late game hound waves are annoying - dont think they're easy to kite. Besides, once you get to the megabase level, stationary structures are ok since you don't really have to leave your base for stuff anymore. I'm not sure how you would make her more interesting. The catapult recipe is expensive, but it can take on all bosses with the exception of klaus. If you're not into combat, the faster crafting times are useful too for just basic construction. She's a powerful character as is. It's just that you have to grind for rocks. 

2 hours ago, Atkvin said:

As for her machines.. agreed with Shadow, let her be able to pack them up, improve spotlight... etc. I can't think of anything for it right now but I really wanted to somehow work blueprints in here somewhere because of her background lol - maybe she can replicate blueprints with papyrus or read them without consuming them or something.

These concepts are good but they're not going to move the needle much for those who think she is boring. I think she is plenty powerful but these are just minor perks that ultimately won't make much of a difference. 

Ruins idea - ok idea but only useful for making the starcaller and deconstruction staff. And even with those, it'd be wise to get a construction amulet. What I'm getting at is that you need thulecite to craft some ruins items and just knowing the recipes on the surface will only do so much

Moving stuff - reminds me of the moving box mod. Just seems like a really minor perk. Besides, are you really going to go back and forth and move a set of 12-18 catapults even if you could?

Replicate blueprints - would be useless by mid-late game when everyone has all the blueprints with the exception of maybe the strident trident (but then again how many do you even need in a single world). 

 

Not discouraging ideas/brainstorming. It's just that giving her additional perks/"uniqueness" is more difficult than it sounds. I for one think she's fine. Allowing everyone to access her machines just made her less special

[Dr. Safety]

27 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Moving stuff - reminds me of the moving box mod. Just seems like a really minor perk. Besides, are you really going to go back and forth and move a set of 12-18 catapults even if you could?

 

3 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I’d give her the exclusive skill to be able to re-pack and move her own structures (like warly’s portable crock pot).

I'm not familiar with the moving box mod, but I assume it made structures able to be moved the same way statues can? Shadow seems to imply that it would go into her inventory, and be unable to stack, like Warly's crockpot. Having it be an inventory item, I don't see any reason to be turned away from using that perk

[PetulantPansy]

These are all great ideas. It's just that Winona's structures require 2 things - a power source and then a structure. In my mind, this is a good idea for moving stuff from point A to point B. However, I'm not sure if it'd be such a great idea if we need to set something up asap for a deerclops sighting or houndwave. 

[SecretPizzaMan]

6 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

Not going to speak for everyone but a lot of people view Winona as a switch character where you build some catapults and then continue with what you were doing (as your original/some other character).

 

So if no one else can use Winona's catapults and only she can use them, she will no longer be a switch character right? Lots of people complain that she has nothing special. Again if no one can use her catapults, then she's special again right? I'm just curious if "fixing" Winona would be as simple as making her constructs exclusive to her.

 

It's unfortunate if that is the answer because she's more "team friendly" when other people can use her machines and stuff. 

Unfortunately, I don't think that will change much. You'll just use Winona's catapults as Winona, then switch back to whatever character you were playing. The cost remained the same, it's just that you will need a extra 2 purple gems and 2 moon rock whenever you want to operate a catapult.

[Yuuko]

imo the worst way to approach it would be to simply force you to stay as Winona to use the catapults.

Think about it - people play Wilson.  He's actually quite popular.  IF someone wanted to play Winona they would.  This means there is either a problem with her theming, or her mechanics.  Its not the ease at which you can switch to her, build her structures, and leave that prevents people from playing her full time.

From my experience playing Winona I see 2 main issues that I believe are the best areas to target to let people who want to play Winona to feel comfortable taking her out.

1) Her entire hunger tax / craft speed penalty is atrocious.  In the beginning of the game you're not going to have food as plentifully, and you are going to be crafting sporadically.  Just think about how that interacts with her downsides.  You are going to be taxed quite a bit of hunger early, and the moment your hunger drops too low - run into the VERY awkward hit of double crafting time.

2) Her crafts require an exorbitant amount of resources, and she does not help in harvesting any of these.  If you started a game, loved Winona, and wanted nothing more than to set up catapult structures, and to watch bosses die while you sit around eating popcorn what you actually need to do is start as Maxwell, Wurt, Woodie, WX, or whoever else can actually help you get the 500++ stones, gems, boards, ropes etc you need to craft these things and then switch at the portal.

Later in the game if you switch to her you've already had time to amass resources, and you have food - and aren't sporadically crafting - so these are all completely side stepped.  If these were addressed I think more people would be willing to play her from the outset.

I think her downside is definitely too harsh - Wanda's crafting penalty in elder form is like 1.8x craft time, Winona's is like 2.1x...  If we reduce it to 1.5x craft penalty it would be more manageable.  She's much less likely to get stuck unable to craft a weapon mid-combat or something.

Then I think she absolutely needs a way to harvest the resources she needs for her crafts.  I think a classic stone-thumper would work really well.  Install it on top of rocky turf, it works over time similar to a flingo but generating rocks.  While it works it attracts depths worms that will attack the machine, so you must defend the machine while its working.  Similarly I think a chain-saw that can chop trees faster but consumes a fuel like nitre would be nifty.

[PetulantPansy]

2 hours ago, CodexCorporis said:

in my honest opinion 'character swapping' is a non-issue. sure if you WANT to swap out characters that's totally up to you, but there's nothing actively bad about so called swap characters that incentivize people to not want to stay as those characters at all. it's all a matter of personal preference at the end of the day, and just because a character can make things that are useful for all characters doesn't mean they're bad if they don't have too many other perks

I think it's an "old-guard"/"new-guard" thing. Either in DS or the early versions of DST, you couldn't switch characters or it was very difficult to do so. So you chose a character and stuck with it. That's also where you had all the conversations about the "ideal team", etc. You needed someone to cover your deficiencies (whether it was combat/resource gathering/something else). Nowadays, you just switch when you need something. I don't have a strong stance on this but that's why some people shun character swapping.  

[Yuuko]

47 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The catapult recipe is expensive, but it can take on all bosses with the exception of klaus.

Catapults can 100% take on Klaus.  Just build them on a boat, and park it far enough away from the edge that he won't cast while you're there.  Similar to fighting Klaus as Walter except you let him go enraged and die that way instead.

[PetulantPansy]

Ah thanks. I stand corrected. I forgot to mention celestial champion though. Unless you use a similar strategy, her phase 2 spin attack will probably wreck the catapults. However, if you have 30 shadow armor from using her catapults to farm shadow pieces, the fight shouldn't be too bad. 

[Mike23Ua]

41 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

I think it's an "old-guard"/"new-guard" thing. Either in DS or the early versions of DST, you couldn't switch characters or it was very difficult to do so. So you chose a character and stuck with it. That's also where you had all the conversations about the "ideal team", etc. You needed someone to cover your deficiencies (whether it was combat/resource gathering/something else). Nowadays, you just switch when you need something. I don't have a strong stance on this but that's why some people shun character swapping.  

I’ve said this once before, I’ll say it again.. to fully befriend Pearl you have to do a ton of Quests INCLUDING waiting till a certain time of Year to obtain items used to upgrade her home.

To change characters at a Celestial Portal, requires you to get a orb that falls in a meteor shower then add 20 moon rock to this portal (also obtained from this same meteor shower..) and create a moon idol. You can do this in like the first 16 days of the game if luck is on your side..

Theres a Clear balancing issue with the Celestial Portal… I personally see that as something that should be locked behind “End-Game” Progression- like this should be THE THING you unlock after completing the Eye of the Storm Quest related stuff..

But since it’s so easy to achieve, it makes some certain characters like Winona/Wolfgang fit a Pick & Swap mold, you’ll use the portal benefit from what your wanting to benefit from then swap back out.

Its less of a problem with Winona as a character, and more of a problem with how ridiculously easy it is to obtain & do something that should be “End-Game” Power levels.

Theres no problem with Winona’s kit, and a recent comment from JoeW seems to imply they have no intentions to revisit or add to Winona’s Kit either…

[Yuuko]

59 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve said this once before, I’ll say it again.. to fully befriend Pearl you have to do a ton of Quests INCLUDING waiting till a certain time of Year to obtain items used to upgrade her home.

To change characters at a Celestial Portal, requires you to get a orb that falls in a meteor shower then add 20 moon rock to this portal (also obtained from this same meteor shower..) and create a moon idol. You can do this in like the first 16 days of the game if luck is on your side..

I think I care very little about the advantages the Celestial Portal brings because it is primarily a boon to solo players who otherwise would be barred from character synergy.  We can knock on someone for swapping to Winona to build catapults but lets be real you could just have another player join you for a session to build the catapults as easily...

The celestial portal doesn't give you anything that you can't get just by having a 2nd person join with a character.  This is different then Pearl who is an in game quest for everyone, solo or group play, to go through to unlock a boss who rewards you with a fun and unique weapon as well as a puzzle piece for the (current) ultimate end game event and boss.

I think this comparison is ridiculous - like if you were to compare being able to hire an npc to cover skill-shortages on a solo character that would normally be supplemented via co-op play with the literal storyline and progression of the game...  Like of course the storyline and progression of the game is going to be more involved then hiring an npc who can detect traps or heal when the game is balanced around you having access to such things through your party.

I am not of the opinion that solo players should be punished simply because they play off line for whatever reason.

Also as I stated above I think most cases where a character is most used as a swap character indicates there is something wrong with that character which should be fixed.  People play Wilson, he's very popular, yet he has no perks.  If Winona were a vanilla Wilson I bet her play rate would go UP because anyone who wants hard working girl attitude is gonna take her.  Why don't people play her?  Because her kit is wonky, stuff is wrong with it.  Fix the kit, and she won't be a pick n swap anymore.

[Owlrust]

TL:DR bullet points of my post:

• Winona can be pretty penalizing and unfun to play because she doesn't offer much to the table that other characters can't already do.
• Winona being able to pack up her inventions would make her much more useful in placement as well as nomadic situations.
• Deactivating generators as well as incorporating different fuel types would be swell, as Nitre is not that common to be used as a fuel source. Electrical doo-dads would make thematically more sense for example, and are actually much easier to obtain long-term.
• Inventions using charge only when being "actively used" would make deploying her inventions more managable, as well as useful without having to babysit them at all times.
• More inventions that can be used to directly aid allies or manage the base such as a freeze-ray, watering bot, or repair/healing-drone, etc would certainly give her more utility in what she can do.
• The spotlight should have a larger light-radius and target only players that don't currently have a light source on them.
• The "losing 5 hunger every minute before your last craft" is very invasive in non-bulk crafting, and her "crafting slower below 50 hunger" penalty is just insult to injury. Her downsides should either be reworked to not be as penalizing, or at least have one of them removed.

My full post in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

She's used as a swap character because, at times, she can be pretty unfun to play. Harsh penalties, lack of nomadic support, and not really doing anything that others can't do themselves is part of what makes her stand out. She's great at making stuff...for other people. You at least need Wurt to befriend Craftsmerm, but with Winona you only need her to set up her catapults and then you can switch to a character you actually want to play.

Moving her structures, or making them portable like others have said, would definitely make her inventions more useful. Being able to deactivate and move generators would be swell too (Speaking of, Nitre isn't as plentiful as you would think, even with petrified trees, compared to logs or manure; so expanding the fuel-types would help a lot too. Electrical doo-dads would be thematically fitting as well as being more renewable long-term). Inventions only using generator charge while being used would be nice as well instead of constantly depleting. More inventions would be awesome. Maybe a freeze-ray, watering bot, or maybe even a repair/healing-drone.

The spotlight could use some love as well, the light-radius is small and should only target players that currently have no light source on them (which would be awesome as a life-saving tool that could be placed anywhere), and the constant drain on the generators makes this too hard to rationalize using as of now.

Her downsides of losing 5 hunger and crafting slower when below 50 hunger make playing her tedious because the former penalizes any crafting that isn't bulk crafting (ie: weapons, armors, tools, etc); and since it's not uncommon to craft only every so often, the times you DO craft will almost always penalize you. The second downside is just insult to injury too, one downside or the other would be fine, just not both. The first could be reworked to affect you when you craft multiple times in a row within a minute, which thematically would make more sense because of how much work she's putting in such a short time, as well as being less penalizing long-term.