[Poll] On the Wolfgang Character Refresh, Postmortem

[Maxposting]

Dunno, i still feel his linear values could remain while keeping the 2x damage

[HowlVoid]

3 hours ago, Ohan said:

anyone who perceives wx and wicker to be anywhere near the same level as old wolf is wrong and edgyrick-pilled lol theres no two ways about it... 

Thats.. just not true though.. 

Mind explaining how Wolf is unique compared to the rest of the cast?

[Pig Princess]

15 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Feels like all the people that had good points and ideas for changes are already burnt out from posting. Hopefully there is someone at Klei that digs through the forums.

If I count as such person, then there is my word: my answer to this rework is reading lua manual and game code, luckily I'm on PC. Maybe I'll do something useful if I don't run out of energy.

I just don't feel like arguing with the same people over and over again, I prefer to stop before I burn out, especially if some of them just ignore some points and proceed to repeat their thing despite counterarguements.

Since Wolfgang rework I don't await other reworks anymore, nor have I hope for bug fixes/design tweaks for other characters that need them, as well as DS DLC characters ever coming to DST, because even if I created such topics once a day, my voice would be lost just like it happened before, I would be encouraged to shut up instead of participating in constructive discussion, directly or indirectly, just like before - because everybody have to enjoy the same things and the same characters, right? Because if somebody says Wolf's nerf is good, Wilba is boring or manure from domesticated beefalo is pleasant and doesn't harm anyone I have no right to disagree with them, right? Their opinion is superior due to the fact it exists (regardless of arguements), right?

Still, even if mods were a solution to everything (and they aren't), due to the "???ping" issue such server would be forever solo. True Don't Starve Together experience.

[Cloakingsumo198]

34 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

if I created such topics once a day, my voice would be lost just like it happened before, I would be encouraged to shut up instead of participating in constructive discussion, directly or indirectly, just like before - because everybody have to enjoy the same things and the same characters, right? I have no right to disagree with them, right? Their opinion is superior due to the fact it exists (regardless of arguements), right?

Still, even if mods were a solution to everything such a server would be forever solo. True Don't Starve Together experience.

Honestly from the start of this whole rework this has been the worst thing coming out of it people that can't argue worth their weight (makes a claim and can't even give their reasoning) or can't leave their introspective bubbles. Elites, noobs, Wolfgang mains, Wolfgang haters, noone reached a middle ground. 

Constructive criticism, detailed experiences, ideas for changes, comparison and contrasts, technique sharing, compassion or empathy were all just lacking in the forums overall.

Worst offenders "just bring speed back criers" "ha Wolfgang deserves all nerfs, "cry more" "another Wolfgang thread?" "Cope, seethe, mald, skill issue, ratio, didn't ask", "noone cares", "just play Wanda", "wolf is perfect as is", "but speedrunners..." and EVERYONE else that joined Wolfgang forums not to discuss Wolfgang but to complain about the fourmites discussing in the Wolfgang forum.

I was looking forward to Wolfgang's rework since he is my favorite character, I expected nerfs and changes but instead got mostly the same character that doesn't feel as polished and disappointment with it. The forums only reminded me how divided the community has always been and still is and the lack of effort the community put into communicating with others that have different ideas. The polls/interactions showed that people don't even play this game TOGETHER like I'd hope.

[ethannnnnnn]

16 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Rework was meh, rather uneventful, but I guess it's practical?

I can say for certain I won't be playing Wolfgang going forward. Not because I'm bitter due to the loss in speed, but because Wolfgang has continued to be a rather bland character. 

I was hoping the refresh would be more in line with Wigfrids. Maybe a few nerfs, sure, but also given something more unique in return. Refresh was mostly one sided (aka only nerfs, nothing unique).

Was Wigfrid even nerfed? Can't even remember lol. An example of a refresh done well.

It's a shame, but this "refresh" didn't really refresh anything. It feels very samey for the most part, just with extra steps that aren't very fun or engaging. Here's to hoping WX/Wicker/Max (assuming they're receiving refreshes) are as fun and interesting as Wanda after their refresh!

[HowlVoid]

15 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

Was Wigfrid even nerfed? Can't even remember lol. An example of a refresh done well.

It's a shame, but this "refresh" didn't really refresh anything. It feels very samey for the most part, just with extra steps that aren't very fun or engaging. Here's to hoping WX/Wicker/Max (assuming they're receiving refreshes) are as fun and interesting as Wanda after their refresh!

No, I was only talking about Wolf at that point.

Yeah, Wanda has raised the bar to what a great character feels like.

[Mysterious box]

10 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i can get he being boring but weak? is one of the best, weak are willow or walter but wolfg not at all

Willow isn't weak if used right tho I do feel bernie should activate whenever willow is fighting shadow creatures not just when insane.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Willow isn't weak if used right tho I do feel bernie should activate whenever willow is fighting shadow creatures not just when insane.

weak in comparation with the strongers, i love willow and i think she has an interesting gameplay with bernie and managing sanity or fire inmunity which can be used to crowd control

yep, she needs something since in late bernie is in a secondary spot

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

weak in comparation with the strongers, i love willow and i think she has an interesting gameplay with bernie and managing sanity or fire inmunity which can be used to crowd control

yep, she needs something since in late bernie is in a secondary spot

I mean compared to the cast as a whole I feel like Bernie does more than enough both solo and on a team but maybe that's just me. That being said what direct would you take Willow?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean compared to the cast as a whole I feel like Bernie does more than enough both solo and on a team but maybe that's just me. That being said what direct would you take Willow?

idk since she was always in a weird spot, being a pyromaniac in a game where fire is so destructive... atleast i would like improved firestaffs for her and QoL for bernie like not being lost if you walk fast

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

weak in comparation with the strongers, i love willow and i think she has an interesting gameplay with bernie and managing sanity or fire inmunity which can be used to crowd control

yep, she needs something since in late bernie is in a secondary spot

Not being a combat character, I think what defines her as "good" or "bad" is completely different.  She exists purely as a flavor, close to Wilson but with a twist.  She doesn't need overarching mechanics or fully involved game play because she is supposed to be largely the game on default.  Not that there isn't room for improvement, but for a character like Willow simple flavor changes mean everything.  She doesn't need to have Bernie make up for her lack of combat ability, because she isn't about combat.

For Willow - getting her fire immunity back meant a LOT.  Even though fire immunity is niche useful at best.  It was entirely flavor.  If I asked for anything for Willow it would only be more flavorful, thematic perks - like maybe Dfly is neutral to her unless she attacks, giving her a cool base spot no one else could easily claim.  Or maybe her lighter can be activated to steal fire from other sources sorta like Dumbledoor's lighter, and as it steals fires it refuels its self and upgrades its glow radius.  idk, cool FUN stuff is all I'd want from Willow.

This is kinda the problem with the Wolfgang rework as it sits - Wolfgang was firmly established over the last 7+ years as a combat character, sometimes the de-facto superior combat character.  For some period he was nearly alone in his space, and by relation overpowered any others who were brought to fight.  Taking this character and trying to pretend a total nerf and some side flavor is doing him justice is ignoring the fact that he had a clearly defined role, a play style that embraced that, and a dedicated playerbase who chose him for his mechanics and did great things in the game.  Rather than lean into him as a character with high skill cap and unique combat interactions Klei floored him to mediocrity and some minor flavor...

[ArubaroBeefalo]

20 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not being a combat character, I think what defines her as "good" or "bad" is completely different.  She exists purely as a flavor, close to Wilson but with a twist.  She doesn't need overarching mechanics or fully involved game play because she is supposed to be largely the game on default.  Not that there isn't room for improvement, but for a character like Willow simple flavor changes mean everything.  She doesn't need to have Bernie make up for her lack of combat ability, because she isn't about combat.

For Willow - getting her fire immunity back meant a LOT.  Even though fire immunity is niche useful at best.  It was entirely flavor.  If I asked for anything for Willow it would only be more flavorful, thematic perks - like maybe Dfly is neutral to her unless she attacks, giving her a cool base spot no one else could easily claim.  Or maybe her lighter can be activated to steal fire from other sources sorta like Dumbledoor's lighter, and as it steals fires it refuels its self and upgrades its glow radius.  idk, cool FUN stuff is all I'd want from Willow.

This is kinda the problem with the Wolfgang rework as it sits - Wolfgang was firmly established over the last 7+ years as a combat character, sometimes the de-facto superior combat character.  For some period he was nearly alone in his space, and by relation overpowered any others who were brought to fight.  Taking this character and trying to pretend a total nerf and some side flavor is doing him justice is ignoring the fact that he had a clearly defined role, a play style that embraced that, and a dedicated playerbase who chose him for his mechanics and did great things in the game.  Rather than lean into him as a character with high skill cap and unique combat interactions Klei floored him to mediocrity and some minor flavor...

im not saying that she needs anything like the others, i like characters like her or walter (i would like him more if the slighshot was more fun than just holding F), wilson or wurt

and as stronger characters i mean characters with gamechanging perks like wicker books, woodie forms, etc not only combat. Willow has very good and fun perks but she doesnt have the same impact than others

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not being a combat character, I think what defines her as "good" or "bad" is completely different.  She exists purely as a flavor, close to Wilson but with a twist.  She doesn't need overarching mechanics or fully involved game play because she is supposed to be largely the game on default.  Not that there isn't room for improvement, but for a character like Willow simple flavor changes mean everything.  She doesn't need to have Bernie make up for her lack of combat ability, because she isn't about combat.

For Willow - getting her fire immunity back meant a LOT.  Even though fire immunity is niche useful at best.  It was entirely flavor.  If I asked for anything for Willow it would only be more flavorful, thematic perks - like maybe Dfly is neutral to her unless she attacks, giving her a cool base spot no one else could easily claim.  Or maybe her lighter can be activated to steal fire from other sources sorta like Dumbledoor's lighter, and as it steals fires it refuels its self and upgrades its glow radius.  idk, cool FUN stuff is all I'd want from Willow.

This is kinda the problem with the Wolfgang rework as it sits - Wolfgang was firmly established over the last 7+ years as a combat character, sometimes the de-facto superior combat character.  For some period he was nearly alone in his space, and by relation overpowered any others who were brought to fight.  Taking this character and trying to pretend a total nerf and some side flavor is doing him justice is ignoring the fact that he had a clearly defined role, a play style that embraced that, and a dedicated playerbase who chose him for his mechanics and did great things in the game.  Rather than lean into him as a character with high skill cap and unique combat interactions Klei floored him to mediocrity and some minor flavor...

That’s your opinion on Wolfgang: But I actually manage to do what he was designed to do “Faster” with the new Rework, As the designated Boss Killer: He still does it better then Anyone else.

I played as both pre-rework & reworked Wolfgang for a full 24+ hours before/after their reworks: that way I would not be thinking of any other characters perks/cons & getting what he can do mixed up with someone else.

As an Xbox player who has to stand COMPLETELY STILL while scrolling through my inventory menu: Being able to lift a weight AS I SCROLL THIS MENU to build up Muscle & be Mighty is actually a Hell of a lot easier then his Pre-Rework of needing to scroll this Menu to get & continuously eat food- Now: A simple couple flips of the Gembell or a Workout on the Gym and I’m ready to go smash the crap out of Dragonfly’s face.

Also throwing stone Dumbells is a fast and effective way to gather Morsels for Bunny Stew a 20 hp healing Recipe which makes Wolfgang easier for Casuals to pick up & play.

This rework was great (if your using an Xbox/PlayStation controller & already do a lot of just standing around..) No longer does Dragonfly get in a free Smack on me while I scroll my inventory to eat food- 

The speed removal just put him on par with everyone else in terms of needing to dodge enemy attacks & not be hit, which there are some certain video’s of him being able to “Outrun” the attack radius of the Boss: Hence probably why he got Nerfed.

I feel like there’s more they could have done to portray the character I see in their artwork, animations, vignettes & main menu screens: But maybe someday perhaps in a DST 2 or whatever?

Overall: this was one of my favorite Reworks & I’m able to more easily play Wolfgang now to perform the one thing he is designed to excel best at: Smashing Bosses.

Pretty sure the changes to how he plays was changed to be a QoL improvement for Console players.

[Yuuko]

21 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

That’s your opinion on Wolfgang: But I actually manage to do what he was designed to do “Faster” with the new Rework, As the designated Boss Killer: He still does it better then Anyone else.

No he doesn't, but that's your opinion, and largely based on your experiences.  I ran him side-by-side against Wigfrid and Willow on the same map, even cheating his set up to give him the best odds.  All told, Wigfrid handily beat him in speed, he barely tied Willow without using any perks at all.

Quote

The speed removal just put him on par with everyone else in terms of needing to dodge enemy attacks & not be hit, which there are some certain video’s of him being able to “Outrun” the attack radius of the Boss: Hence probably why he got Nerfed.

He has always needed to dodge like everyone else - there are only a few niche cases where he could actually dodge in a unique way that others couldn't.  I'm not sure what you mean by "outrun" an attack, but isn't that literally kiting?  Its not like others are forced to tank in this game...

[reallychina]

why are we even having these discussions? klei literally doesn't seem to care at all as they do not reply to anything.

[BezKa]

2 minutes ago, reallychina said:

why are we even having these discussions? klei literally doesn't seem to care at all as they do not reply to anything.

This isn't about wanting Klei to change something, it's about knowing the opinion of the forumites. It's just as helpful to us in future discussions as it is for Klei. 

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

No he doesn't, but that's your opinion, and largely based on your experiences.  I ran him side-by-side against Wigfrid and Willow on the same map, even cheating his set up to give him the best odds.  All told, Wigfrid handily beat him in speed, he barely tied Willow who has no combat perks at all.

He has always needed to dodge like everyone else - there are only a few niche cases where he could actually dodge in a unique way that others couldn't.  I'm not sure what you mean by "outrun" an attack, but isn't that literally kiting?  Its not like others are forced to tank in this game...

Plug in an Xbox controller and try to “outrun” Deerclops attack radius without a walking cane. This was something Old Wolfgang could do, that New No speed Wolfgang can’t not. (Of course this fight is over in under 1 minute so it’s not as important..) but it’s one example of a boss with a larger attacking radius then players are able to dodge out of the way of.

If your supposed to be able to Dodge Deerclops smash ice attack without a walking cane or built in speed boost, I’ve never been able to do it: More importantly I’ve never seen anyone else on Xbox do it either.

I’m not talking about dodging out of the way of a Treeguard, Beefalo headbutt, Spider Queen, etc.. I’m talking about the bosses who have further hitting range or movement speeds: such as Dragonfly or Deerclops.

These were the type of bosses that built in dodging speed helped Wolfgang excel at: and the removal of that speed means he (like everyone else) needs to get a walking cane or other speed related item to aid him in combat.

But he still finishes the fight faster: Because his damage stays at a persistent 2x damage & doesn’t diminish over time.

[Dextops]

14 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

He has always needed to dodge like everyone else - there are only a few niche cases where he could actually dodge in a unique way that others couldn't.  I'm not sure what you mean by "outrun" an attack, but isn't that literally kiting?  Its not like others are forced to tank in this game...

probably referring to how you could dodge the bone cage with wolfgangs speed never did it myself so idk how hard it is

[Mike23Ua]

18 minutes ago, reallychina said:

why are we even having these discussions? klei literally doesn't seem to care at all as they do not reply to anything.

The entirety of Klei staff is away on Winter Holiday & won’t be back in office till January 4th at the earliest: When they return I definitely expect a patch for “minor tweaks” to Wolfgang’s rework based on all the feedback they have gotten:

And now to clarify: for Wolfgang’s Rework I have only been very specifically here on these forums expressing my opinions & concerns: EXCLUSIVELY here on just the forum- Meanwhile: Klei staff has heard the opinions of lots of happy/unhappy players of their game across these Forums/Twitter/Facebook/Discord/MySpace/Reddit/Personal Messages/ Tech Support/ etc….

While my voice on Wolfgangs Rework is only heard here within the forum, KLEI hears it from everyone around the world and through various media outlets from all their costumers.

So.. I urge you to just be patient & let’s see what they’re able to gather & come up with AFTER they return from spending the holidays Arguing with their Nana about getting another set of Fuchsia dish towels.

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, Dextops said:

probably referring to how you could dodge the bone cage with wolfgangs speed never did it myself so idk how hard it is

Well - from what I understand - anyone could do it with careful timing and stacked speed buffs.  Wolfgang's speed buff helps that stack making his timing easier / more consistent, but it isn't exactly unique to him.  Also a teleport cane isn't that bad to just get out of the bone cage.  Often I find I need the reposition anyway during his phases.  Even with Wanda and her backstep watch I still use a few charges on a lazy explorer through the fight.  People who are better than me probably don't XD but that's good right?  There is an answer for multiple skill levels.

Its possible he could be referring to either Klaus or dfly lunge as well, but its the same situation.  Anyone could stack the speed buffs if they wanted to, and there were alternative ways to dealing with these that weren't difficult either.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Plug in an Xbox controller and try to “outrun” Deerclops attack radius without a walking cane

sure, the difference between pressin A and D vs holding left and right the joystick are abysmal

 

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This was something Old Wolfgang could do, that New No speed Wolfgang can’t not. (Of course this fight is over in under 1 minute so it’s not as important..) but it’s one example of a boss with a larger attacking radius then players are able to dodge out of the way of.

all characters can evade deerclops atacks without any speed mod and without matter if is a controler or a keyboard...

[hhh2]

I just miss wolfgang's simplicity, the meter and idling makes me sad. Hopefully wickerbottom will get some new books and WX-78 will get an upgrade tabs. The reworks work best when they are more like character expansions, stuff that doesn't change what isn't broke. 

55 minutes ago, reallychina said:

why are we even having these discussions? klei literally doesn't seem to care at all as they do not reply to anything.

What??? Klei literally set up these fourms for feedback a decade ago and they been tuning the game accordingly ever since. stuff like food spoiling, and splumonkeys might not be in the game and toadstool might still have 150,000 HP if it weren't for posts like threads like these

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, hhh2 said:

I just miss wolfgang's simplicity, the meter and idling makes me sad. Hopefully wickerbottom will get some new books and WX-78 will get an upgrade tabs. The reworks work best when they are more like character expansions, stuff that doesn't change what isn't broke. 

What??? Klei literally set up these fourms for feedback a decade ago and they been tuning the game accordingly ever since. stuff like food spoiling, and splumonkeys might not be in the game and toadstool might still have 150,000 HP if it weren't for posts like threads like these

 

it sure doesnt feel like they are paying any attention to the community feedback on this. nit a single post from them about it

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, reallychina said:

 

it sure doesnt feel like they are paying any attention to the community feedback on this. nit a single post from them about it

You ever had friends you wanted to spend time with playing Xbox/PlayStation/Nintendo but suddenly your parents say: Hey let’s go on Vacation! So you pack up & you leave leaving your Xbox/PlayStation at home because your only going to be taking what can fit into your luggage for the plane/boat/train/car trip and you have to tell your friends you won’t be available for the length of the vacation because your going somewhere up in the mountains where there’s no cellphone service or internet?

Its roughly the same thing here: Klei staff isn’t around right now, they’re off enjoying a holiday vacation with their friends & family: I explained that in my other thread about Klei Holiday availability & please stop saying nonsense like they aren’t listening.. because they Are/Will be: Just not during their Christmas/New Years Vacations.

[Sweaper]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Plug in an Xbox controller and try to “outrun” Deerclops attack radius without a walking cane.

 

Disable lag compensation, two hits, run.