wolfgang Toroic’s Idea For A Final Wolfgang Patch

[Toroic]

I’ve had some time over the holidays, read and argued in just about every Wolfgang thread, and I am expecting a buff patch after the holidays.

However, I have some changes that I think are a great idea based on user feedback, and would also be relatively easy for Klei to implement.

Problem 1: Dumbells are either fun or effective, never both.

It’s pretty obvious based on the many gifs of enemies being smushed by dumbell tosses that throwing dumbells is fun, but even with getting mightiness from it the damage is disappointing and the durability cost is too high.  Only one worth using outside of an early hound wave is gembell, and never for throwing.

Solution 1: Double damage for thrown dumbells, gold dumbell is half as effective as gembell while mighty, one pump and one toss use the same durability.

This fixes the problems with all 3 dumbbells.  Stone remains terrible unless getting out of wimpy, but once you get mighty it’s now a one way boomerang with better durability, and you get some free mightiness by terrorizing birds and rabbits.

Gold now gives about 1 mightiness per toss, and tossing is now more rewarding than pumping because you get mightiness and damage.  It’s now a viable choice to either pump or toss to maintain mighty, but is now reasonable to use offensively to extend mighty time.

Gembell is now a small aoe ranged attack that can oneshot multiple spiders and is more efficient to toss at bosses instead of afking with.

Problem 2: Rowing boost doesn’t actually help

As @Hornete demonstrated, oars have two components, the amount of force they can apply (effectively acceleration) and a top speed which is a fixed limit.

Wolfgang only has increased oar force, not increased top speed, and as you reach top speed on a boat very quickly in practice this doesn’t help and isn’t awesome to use.

Solution 2: Increase the max speed for each oar one tier for mighty wolfgang (regular as good as driftwood, driftwood as good as malba)

This is more fun as you can zoom around with a driftwood oar, and if you get a malba beak in wolf’s hands reach speeds that are ridiculous and dangerous.

Problem 3: Even staying full on hunger, mighty can’t last a full day.

This is much less important with the dumbell changes, but currently staying above 3/4 hunger allows about 30 mighty loss in a day.  Staying above half allows 33 mighty loss, which is both not rewarding people staying full, and not generally significant enough to stay full for.

Solution 3: Reduce mightiness drain to 0.75x from 0.9x when over 3/4 hunger

This makes staying full feel rewarding as you can now last a full 8 minutes mighty without using a dumbbell.  People who are tossing dumbbells probably won’t notice much of a difference but this is helpful for Wolfgangs who are doing more gathering instead of combat tasks with his increased work speed.

[Scrimbles]

I think that, instead of giving him lower mightiness drain, adding back some of his hunger dynamics could be a good idea.

I'd worked on some changes during the beta phase, and the one change that I fully wanted in the game was getting more mightiness at the cost of hunger from his dumbbells.

Speeds up his mightiness gain by a lot, but also adds a fitting cost that ties back in with his old hunger mechanic.

Right now the weight lifting is just a time sync, when it could be a resource sink that wastes much less time.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

what about including the minigame into the dumbbells so you arent afk. You gain the same points as now if you do it passively but quickly if you do the minigame

the thing is increasing the speed of the dumbbells in any way, atleast for the rock and gold ones because right now this character is so slow in early because of that which means that noobs wont play it never because they can access gembells. I like @Scrimbles idea, fits and is the same logic applied for the gym but it should be added in a way that doesnt become something so toxic in PUBS

[Mike23Ua]

Crazy idea but new Wolfgang has trouble managing his Sanity: If I absolutely have to stand still.. Maybe using the Gym can give him sanity and might at the cost of his hunger (it would be about like using a tent minus the hp regen)

[Toroic]

54 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

I think that, instead of giving him lower mightiness drain, adding back some of his hunger dynamics could be a good idea.

I'd worked on some changes during the beta phase, and the one change that I fully wanted in the game was getting more mightiness at the cost of hunger from his dumbbells.

Speeds up his mightiness gain by a lot, but also adds a fitting cost that ties back in with his old hunger mechanic.

Right now the weight lifting is just a time sync, when it could be a resource sink that wastes much less time.

I like this idea, but it has the same issue as gyms where you’re staying still for the benefit.  What you’re suggesting would be an improvement, but a lot of people don’t like having to stay still for any period of time.  The gym is pretty efficient at that, and people still don’t want to use it

46 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

what about including the minigame into the dumbbells so you arent afk. You gain the same points as now if you do it passively but quickly if you do the minigame

the thing is increasing the speed of the dumbbells in any way, atleast for the rock and gold ones because right now this character is so slow in early because of that which means that noobs wont play it never because they can access gembells. I like @Scrimbles idea, fits and is the same logic applied for the gym but it should be added in a way that doesnt become something so toxic in PUBS

What I’m suggesting is that instead of the minigame you can throw the dumbbell at enemies or the direction you’re moving instead to build mighty without needing to stop and pump weights, as throwing and pumping cost the same amount of durability.

35 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Crazy idea but new Wolfgang has trouble managing his Sanity: If I absolutely have to stand still.. Maybe using the Gym can give him sanity and might at the cost of his hunger (it would be about like using a tent minus the hp regen)

Sanity management isn’t a problem Wolfgang has, and you’ll want to farm a lot of nightmare fuel for a magi so you can neglect your sanity freely.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, Toros said:

What I’m suggesting is that instead of the minigame you can throw the dumbbell at enemies or the direction you’re moving instead to build mighty without needing to stop and pump weights, as throwing and pumping cost the same amount of durability.

yes and i like it and obv the dumbells as weapons should be better, i was suggesting something to add not to replace

[Toroic]

8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

yes and i like it and obv the dumbells as weapons should be better, i was suggesting something to add not to replace

Oh yeah, in that case I agree.

[Yuuko]

I'm not as confident they'll come back with a buff, but we'll see :\ The noise has settled some, many have moved on, it would be easy for Klei to just move on too.  Wolfgang isn't the only problem character, Winona desperately needs something and she's been pretty much abandoned since she kicked off the refresh cycle.

There are a number of things they could do to improve Wolfgang without back tracking, or dumping assets.  I've gone over it before, and I still feel the same way.  I think the best way to improve new Wolfgang is to make maintaining mighty more efficient by pausing mightiness drain for a minute after performing an action that uses mightiness (attacking, chopping, lifting a weight).  This would make Wolfgang a momentum character, where you're able to maintain your form as long as you're able to actively use it.  You're only tethered to a base, or standing still pumping weights for a minute when you've been inactive.  Mighty form becomes a feedback / reward loop that rewards active play and wimpy form can actually be punishing.

I don't think that change *must* happen, but I think it would give us the best version of Wolfgang.

Other things they could change about Wolfgang:

Throwing weights - The durability hit and damage make this just silly.  Its fun, but not functional.  The durability hit to the weights and the pitiful damage makes this a trap.  A player wants to throw the weight, the ability is there - its just never the right thing to do.  They could up the damage and reduce the durability hit so its at least a decent idea sometimes...

Hunger and Mightiness - the effect is weak, and obfuscated.  Just get rid of it.  Give him a constant drain (or with my suggestion above, give him a drain rate that increases over time of inactivity.)

Piggy Pack and Marble Armor - Without any of my other suggestions to mightiness above - at least give these a perk of reducing mightiness drain rate by 50%  Wearing these commits you to mightiness, at least let it help smooth out how often he has to interrupt game play to twiddle his weights.

[HowlVoid]

I think I'd also like for Wolfgang to gain some of the abilities from being mighty in his regular form. Something like:

1.2 chopping/mining/hammering effectiveness at slightly increased durability use or none. 

I could do without any gathering perks though.

1.5 damage instead of the 2x

Can wear the piggyback with no penalty

Can wear a marble suit at half the speed penalty

There are only two ways to play Wolf and that's being Wimpy to avoid the meter or being mighty to get full use of your perks. 

Given how easy it is to get mighty mid battle, it could be a good trade off to not put in the extra time to work out and instead fall back at lesser perks. It doesn't make sense for normally buff Wolfgang to be as strong as Wilson and weaker than Wigfrid. 

This would also appeal to only getting half mighty for quick battles like spiders where it's not even worthy to spend the full 15 seconds to work out. His mid form at the moment feels like just a stop gap to make a bigger meter.

There is less incentive to run straight back to the gym, the fastest workout, whenever you turn normal again and are just doing some stuff nearby.

Some battles are so short, Wolfgang is still working out while the battle is already almost over.

[BezKa]

Also have Wolfgang emit heat when working out. 

Stand close to share the warmth

[Lex the Grim]

Nice suggestions @Toros. Like I mentioned in a previous thread, I think the extra hunger drain from using the gym should be either much reduced or completely removed. As it stands for the amount of resources that go into the gym and the boss statues, it shouldn't be as punishing to return to a well set up gym.

If not outright removal, instead remove the scaling based on the loaded weight, have the drain be a function of time spent on the gym rather than amount of mightiness restored per press, which rewards players for actually getting a boss statue set up in the gym.

 

Also, I still really like the idea I came up with about letting other characters use the gym for a temporary buff similar to Warly Jelly and spices, with Wolfgang's supervision. Have characters able to mount the gyms but not perform the minigame unless Wolfgang walks over and interact with it, like Walter does with a fire, and treat it like an AOE effect, so you can have a few gyms set up next to each other and the other characters can start lifting. Rainier Wolfgang style. It'd be awesome and hilarious.

Also let the other characters get big arm visual effects that Wolfgang gets with clothing. Physical fitness and strength is for everyone. It's a really fun image to me.

 

There's also some space to add in other gym machines with special benefits, like potentially one to give characters a time limited speed boost. Lock them behind Thulecite if you like, but I think that'd be cool.

Just more fun team utility options would be an addition that would really pump up the fun of this refresh.

[mr. brj]

Just let Wolfgang press F while holding a dumbbell and not throw it. It doesn't even have to deal more damage when used as a regular weapon. If the sole (functional) purpose of the dumbbell is to maintain mightiness, then Wolfgang should be able to do so just by switching his weapon to his dumbbell and not lose a handslot item immediatly after.

(I still stand by my idea of letting Wolfgang gain mightiness by eating seasonal fruits and veggies though.)

[Owlrust]

13 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Winona desperately needs something and she's been pretty much abandoned since she kicked off the refresh cycle.

Warly, Woodie, and Wurt are hurting pretty bad too in terms of needing some buffs in some aspects. Warly has like- no personal perks to playing him; he's a straight downside all around (faster hunger drain, only eats crockpot dishes, repetition penalty, limited use out of grinding mill and seasoning station, etc) but with the ability to cook on the go and create spices and dishes that anyone can bundle for the character they actually want to play (and Warly is one of my favorite characters to boot). Woodie's were-forms are rarely useful except for the times you know you will use them and having the totems spoil makes it even less convenient to use, otherwise you are just playing human Woodie for almost everything. Wurt can't catch a break to be honest. There's a lot of chores to get the best of what she offers, her diet is very strict compared to Wigfrid whom has a lot of exceptions to her meat-only diet, and her perks are only useful in specific areas that she sets up. The King of the Merms also needs a touch-up a bit seeing as how the general strategy is to literally let him DIE and replace him rather than feed him (his hunger is not convenient to refill since his diet is the same as Wurt's and he doesn't have an increase in hunger for veggies like Wurt does. 150% more hunger from veggies/fruits you feed him would be very viable for feeding him instead of replacing him).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

Warly, Woodie, and Wurt are hurting pretty bad too in terms of needing some buffs in some aspects. Warly has like- no personal perks to playing him; he's a straight downside all around (faster hunger drain, only eats crockpot dishes, repetition penalty, limited use out of grinding mill and seasoning station, etc) but with the ability to cook on the go and create spices and dishes that anyone can bundle for the character they actually want to play (and Warly is one of my favorite characters to boot). Woodie's were-forms are rarely useful except for the times you know you will use them and having the totems spoil makes it even less convenient to use, otherwise you are just playing human Woodie for almost everything. Wurt can't catch a break to be honest. There's a lot of chores to get the best of what she offers, her diet is very strict compared to Wigfrid whom has a lot of exceptions to her meat-only diet, and her perks are only useful in specific areas that she sets up. The King of the Merms also needs a touch-up a bit seeing as how the general strategy is to literally let him DIE and replace him rather than feed him (his hunger is not convenient to refill since his diet is the same as Wurt's and he doesn't have an increase in hunger for veggies like Wurt does. 150% more hunger from veggies/fruits you feed him would be very viable for feeding him instead of replacing him).

i think that wurt only needs changes to her king trading system (and maybe the recipe) and bug fixes. She is a very strong character jack of all trades and her diet isnt a problem since rwys, potatoes+tomatoes op

about woodie... idk what can be buffed, is arguably the second best character since he can do most of the things faster than the average character and has little downsides while not transformed. Has one of the best gathering perks, one of the best speed perks and  his moose form is so danm useful for cleaning multiple minibosses (is a pleasure cleaning spiderqueens as him), ruins or simply melt little mobs. He needs something to make woodie less annoying during the moon event. The idols not spoiling is interesting tho but, for me, will feel weird after all this time to change it since im already used to them being food but for sure it will be a very good QoL change. I usually have a bundle with moose and goose idols to use them on demand but i cant remember how annoying the spoiling time was ( i might start a world as woodie today, i was thinking about it the entire week xD)

 

warly could have longer buffs for himself but he is one of the best too, is just that people think he needs something because some players use the portal. Another cool jack of all trades but grindier

while winona only has 4 structures: catapults for cheesing things, a nearly useless light source, 2 bateries (half of her perks are bateries to feed 1 structure...) a megabase perk and a dumb downsides. I hope they change her soon since is kinda silly to have an engineer with only 1 machine, she has a lot of potential

also i think willow needs something to make bernie more noticeable in late game because of how the moon stuff nullifies her main teddie bear perk

walter slingshot could be reworked into something fun and useful..

idk i prefer if klei prioritizes underwhelming characters. I hope that after the refreshes they will focus on improving the refreshes

[Keller Max]

1) Gembell doesn't use durability when exercising

2) Pause mightiness meter for 1 minute after gaining atleast 10 - 15 mightiness from exercising.

3) Increase dumbell damage (Because there are no point in using them as a weapon) I threw dumbell once, just to get koalefant aggro

[MondayNight]

Why certain people are so hung on Wolf's niche abilities and think those are the ones that make-or-break his rework? Since Wolfgang's "refurbishment", I've played him almost exclusively, pubs (the most) and personal servers with friends alike. And, on both cases, aside occasional "meme moments" of throwing Dumb-bells at some poor critter for sadistic lulz, no one uses them like that; since, in lack of a deployed Gym (an aspect actually shunned by most of his past mains, pre-rework, for the mandatory idle time and dependence on a base/immobile object), using Bells as projectiles "eats" them/their durability even quicker than what most people blame: their low durableness in general - and by extension how Wolf now "eats" Gold, Gems and Rocks on top of food (to preserve Might). Then the boat rowing aspect. How many people in general have you seen, OP, in pubs (Endless servers) going for Ocean content? And from among those, how many use Masts vs how many row their way through all/most ocean? Let's be real here, you are pointing at a very-very small minority. If this perk of rowing faster (well, initial acceleration anyway) was given-or-taken, almost no one would care. It really doesn't matter, even if buffed. What it does matter at large though, is: obligatory idle times of watching an animation while "working out" with Dumb-bells, and for that most effective solution would be the ability to "lift Bells" on the go, their durability - perhaps should be doubled, and how Wolf loses Mighty during long boss fights - maybe Mighty meter should be paused during such fights - where he needs to take breaks and "work out" that obfuscated idle animation. Carrying Statues while Mighty and not being "normally slow" plus using Marble Suit while Mighty without speed penalty (also Piggyback) are "fluff": vast majority move Statue Heads and Statues with Big Woby or a partially tamed Beef (now made even easier via Beefalo Bell), few sport Piggybacks (bulk player-base uses Backpacks, advanced players rush Krampus Sacks), and Marble Suit is mainly used for tanking, not kiting (not to mention if player is good enough to keep consistent kiting patterns, he/she won't need Marble Suit anyway).

[Toroic]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Why certain people are so hung on Wolf's niche abilities and think those are the ones that make-or-break his rework? Since Wolfgang's "refurbishment", I've played him almost exclusively, pubs (the most) and personal servers with friends alike. And, on both cases, aside occasional "meme moments" of throwing Dumb-bells at some poor critter for sadistic lulz, no one uses them like that; since, in lack of a deployed Gym (an aspect actually shunned by most of his past mains, pre-rework, for the mandatory idle time and dependence on a base/immobile object), using Bells as projectiles "eats" them/their durability even quicker than what most people blame: their low durableness in general - and by extension how Wolf now "eats" Gold, Gems and Rocks on top of food (to preserve Might). Then the boat rowing aspect. How many people in general have you seen, OP, in pubs (Endless servers) going for Ocean content? And from among those, how many use Masts vs how many row their way through all/most ocean? Let's be real here, you are pointing at a very-very small minority. If this perk of rowing faster (well, initial acceleration anyway) was given-or-taken, almost no one would care. It really doesn't matter, even if buffed. What it does matter at large though, is: obligatory idle times of watching an animation while "working out" with Dumb-bells, and for that most effective solution would be the ability to "lift Bells" on the go, their durability - perhaps should be doubled, and how Wolf loses Mighty during long boss fights - maybe Mighty meter should be paused during such fights - where he needs to take breaks and "work out" that obfuscated idle animation. Carrying Statues while Mighty and not being "normally slow" plus using Marble Suit while Mighty without speed penalty (also Piggyback) are "fluff": vast majority move Statue Heads and Statues with Big Woby or a partially tamed Beef (now made even easier via Beefalo Bell), few sport Piggybacks (bulk player-base uses Backpacks, advanced players rush Krampus Sacks), and Marble Suit is mainly used for tanking, not kiting (not to mention if player is good enough to keep consistent kiting patterns, he/she won't need Marble Suit anyway).

The first suggestion directly addresses having to remain stationary to build mighty, maintaining mighty during boss fights, and makes goldbells a viable option as they would sustain mighty for 6 days for a relatively low cost as gold and stone are highly renewable through a variety of sources.

With 1 pump and 1 toss being equivalent mighty gain and durability loss and toss damage being doubled, you are encouraged to use the dumbbells offensively to maintain mighty instead of standing still and pumping.  Similarly, tossing them at bosses, possibly while kiting, could give some extra dps or at the very least elimination of having to stop attacking to pump or sacrificing large amounts of durability.

Gembell allows maintaining mighty for 12 days currently, probably 14+ with the reduced mighty loss while full suggested.  Goldbell would maintain mighty for 6 days and can easily get morsels to refund the gold requirement.

Piggyback can be gotten early on and if you’re maintaining mighty is an upgrade from backpack, and mighty wolf in marble armor can have great durability without sacrificing his ability to kite.  More skilled players will generally use a magi instead for the movement speed but kiting in marble is a boon for players still inconsistent with their kiting patterns.

Flavor perks aren’t inherently bad as long as they make sense, have some niche use, and ideally open up some alternative strategies.

For example, you might be able to use the dumbbells for interrupts on enemies that try to kite for extra hits, and I think new Wolf with a double damage gembell might be able to get two stuns solo on dragonfly which would be a very unique and fast strategy for that boss.

When you give players tools, they find interesting ways to use them.

[Mysterious box]

11 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

think that wurt only needs changes to her king trading system (and maybe the recipe) and bug fixes. She is a very strong character jack of all trades and her diet isnt a problem since rwys, potatoes+tomatoes op

Wurt's king system needs a full blown refresh nothing he does is worth keeping him alive outside of boss fights which is problematic when it's the only way to make merms non hostile and then there's the fact that if you want to keep the king anyway he essentially tethers wurt to to base. Personally I think feeding the king should be removed or he should give more incentives to make use of him. As a additional quality of life I feel like Wurt should get her own versions of the webby whistle and healing goop as it would give her more interaction with her followers and go a long way in using them strategically.

[Random Guy000]

Please... No more Wolfgang rework threads...

[Mike23Ua]

16 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Please... No more Wolfgang rework threads...

That’s not the right kind of mindset to have about this though, even though I am not a Wolfgang main: I wouldn’t want someone else’s character they enjoy the most completely destroyed.

Wolfgang has to live up to KLEI’s Vision: Not yours, or Mine, or anyone who mains him.. but Klei’s. With that said: They should do like they were able to do with Wes, Webber & Wendy- Make the character live up to their vision while still satisfying the people who enjoyed them originally as best they can.

I feel like this Rework needs more work, but let’s just be honest: Winona has had several Reworks & people still don’t feel she’s in a good place even though generally speaking: She’s a solid character pick.

If it were up to some Willow players she would be casting floating fireballs and be some kind of Pyro-Kinesis so there comes a point where what the fans want from a character and what Klei intends that character to actually be: Don’t exactly match up.

(Sorry Willow fans I don’t see you becoming Borderlands Lilith flying around with wings made of fire anytime soon)

But it is still good to get feedback from fans, because who knows.. by the time we get to DST 3- Willow could very well become a pyro-kinesis through story continuation & lore.

With Wolfgang: It’s good to get feedback from how he is now/how he used to be: Because even if not implemented in THIS Game, Klei can be like “yeah he’s totally getting to do that in the Sequel”

Ultimately though: The characters and their abilities still have to live up to the vision the developers have set fourth for them.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

.

and more structures to make her a unique base builder, to really feel you are improving the merm kind

[Random Guy000]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But it is still good to get feedback from fans

Its too much feedback from too many threads that can generally just be summarised in one

[Sweaper]

38 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Please... No more Wolfgang rework threads...

Ctrl+W

[Toroic]

13 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Its too much feedback from too many threads that can generally just be summarised in one

Well, this particular thread is a set of 3 problems and proposed solutions based on a summary of complaints I’ve seen across many threads, which is why this exists.

[lv746591263]

All else aside, get rid of the rigidity of the character's transition mode, like Wanda, and no one would think that would be a happy feature, would they?