Pig Princess Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 After reading note about Wolfgang rework from developers I thought about reworks in general for some time and want to share my reasoning regarding them. Character "fantasy" is what gives character identity and ties special abilities in one kit in terms of perception ("Wendy is a girl mouring her beloved sister, refusing to accept her death, taking care of her sister's spirit and surviving with her help", "Walter is a boy who doesn't realize danger until it's too late, as well as a very agile child who has wide range of small tricks", "Willow is mentally unstable and has psycological disorders who resorts to imaginary friend in hardest times", etc.), and character mechanical implementation is the way this character performs in-game including fulfilling this "fantasy". At least I understand it like this. Character fantasy can be expanded or changed to some degree, as well as mechanical implementation can undergo the same after rework. From my perspective all reworks can be divided into 3 types in terms of mechanical implementation: 1. Mechanical implemetation remains the same in the core and is expanded to more things outside of core. Examples: Webber, Wigfrid, Winona, Wormwood; with minor exceptions Warly. I assume this happens when developers think pre-rework character fullfils "fantasy" fine and these characters just need adjustment to multiplayer nature of the game and new content compared to DS (AnR, RoT). "Fantasy role" remains the same. It's the safest route to go, requires the least amount of creativity compared to other 2 options listed below, and since mechanical core remains intact players who like to choose these characters can completely ignore rework content if they happen to not like it, but at the same time other players can start to choose mentioned characters more often due to this new content. This essentially leads to situation when nobody among playerbase is at loss and it is the least resource and risk intensive alternative for developers. 2. Mechanical implementation changes drastically, there is no concept of "core" and "extra features" anymore since old version of character doesn't exist anymore instead of being included in new version like in route #1. Examples: Woodie, Willow, Wolfgang. My assumption about this case is that developers either are not satisfied how character performs mechanically in game regarding "fantasy role", or the very fantasy of characters changes after passed time in deleloper's mind. "Fantasy role" either remains the same in the eyes of developers and undergoes heavy change in the eyes of players, or changes from the point of view of both developers and players. It's the riskiest way to go, requires much more creativity than #1 option but less than #3 listed below, and since mechanically characters change so much it's pre-rework and post-rework camps's enjoyment that is on the scalepans, which inevitably leads to loss of pre-rework side and is a wild card regarding new players. To sum up: the riskiest for developers, moderately demanding in case of creativity energy. 3. Mechanical implementation changes drastically, old character version can be seen here and there, but essentially it's fusion of old elements of character - only elements at this point - and new content. Examples: Wendy, Wes. I suppose this is the case when developers like the "fantasy role", but not mechanical implementation of it, although unsatisfaction of mechanical implementaion is less than in #2. "Fantasy role" remains the same for developers and either remains the same or changes a bit for players. This is moderately safe option, but in case one deliberately tries to satisfy both pre-rework camp and adjust mechanical implementation to fullfill character "fantasy" better, it demands much more creative energy and is by far the most resource-demanding option among all 3 listed both for developers and, optionally, players (pre-rework camp). But once done, this leads to major benefit for everyone: pre-rework camp can reproduce old playstyle with new tools, post-rework camp enjoys reborn character, from developers's poin of view "fantasy role" is fulfilled. In case anyone reading this frequently visited beta branch discussion section last week, they can guess that I prefer #3 option and tried multiple times my best giving ideas. There are 2 reasons of my actions: first, I don't like someone to be at loss if this can be avoided, and second, I find moral satisfaction in finding solution for difficult problems, and this one looks juicy for my twisted mind. However, it's perfectly understandable if developers prefer to use the least demanding option in terms of resources, and as for the risk, it's sad for me to admit, but there were much less Wolfgang players than Wendy/Wigfrid players for comparison, and risk scales accordingly. Worst case scenario it's easy to ignore unsatisfied people, and best case scenario only small group of people will benefit (pre-rework camp), everyone else is still wild card as in any other route of action, in other words, effort-guaranteed reward balance for developers simply doesn't justify enourmous work needed for #3, as it looks to me (the only exception would be if they wanted to refine character out of love for the creative process itself no matter how demanding it is, and nobody can be asked for that; or place a bet on new players offsetting spent resources). And even if players provide feedback including new ideas, they simply can be hard to implement mechanically and/or not match intended character "fantasy". Looking at Wanda and Wendy's/Wigfrid's skill floor I don't think developers care much about balance state but rather about fun, as for new Wolfgang - he was nerfed only in eyes of moderately-high skilled players, but buffed for new ones, and I was confused about "needed nerf" in note about refresh; therefore I assume we got this rework in this state because character "fantasy" now is fullfilled in the eyes of developers, as well as they found balance of how much effort it's reasonable to them to put in this rework. However, I don't think "fantasy" of Strongman is fullfilled. As many stated, because of breaks in gameplay flow due to afk-watching lifting animation or minigame at stationary structure it's a choice between (almost) forever wimpy Strongman and normal-mighty Wolfgang who afks and eats purple gems or travels across the map in a state of deflating balloon between gyms as checkpoints tearing player out from the game. If developers think that at least one of 3 options fullfills fantasy of Strongman, so be it. Same for speed and fear: in my opinion getting speed from low sanity due to being scared of vague monsters creeping closer and closer is perfectly fine, could diversity and deepen Wolfgang's gameplay as well as satisfy a lot of people loving this part of Wolfgang's kit. But nobody can expect developers to reconsider "fantasy" role, it's their creation after all, so if they are satisfied with the result, so be it. Wolfgang also seems to show altruistic behaviour even without expected benefit, as can be seen in the animated short (William Carter's resque), and if he could block damage for allies by standing in front of them and receiving it himself in game, it would be both in-character and mechanical benefit for the team. But again, if it doesn't fit his "fantasy", so be it. Finally, I like how every rework so far deepened gameplay of particular character in various aspects of the game, diversified it from others, and I was disappointed it wasn't the case with Wolfgang. He didn't have much to diversify himself from Wilson before (compared to others), and now he has even less, which is a shame. I disagree with this rework, and maybe it will be enough for me to finally learn lua and create my own mod, in that case I'll pretend that Maxwell was tortured by the conscience regarding pulling into the constant his saviour and decided to tweak some things about Wolfgang. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudoku Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 They can put as much of a focus on character fantasy as they want, but if it doesnt coincide with fun gameplay then their gonna keep running into people who are unsatisfied. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Princess Posted December 19, 2021 Author Share Posted December 19, 2021 27 minutes ago, sudoku said: They can put as much of a focus on character fantasy as they want, but if it doesnt coincide with fun gameplay then their gonna keep running into people who are unsatisfied. It's just note in rework release that said: On 12/16/2021 at 8:37 PM, Jason said: we approached Wolfgang in a way that would focus his role and improve on the character fantasy rather than just doing what he already did but better. The result is a character that is more specialized and focused on being "The Strongman" both in and out of combat. So I addressed his role in relation to mechanical changes. I agree that it should also be interesting to play character mechanically, but I wrote about it in my other posts in beta branch. Edit: mechanical improvement takes more creative energy than adding flavour though, so maybe it just seem to not worth to put that much effort to improvement of mechanical uniqueness? I mean not +X to insulation or +% to damage/carrying statue speed, but real things like 2nd entity attacking with you with configurable properties, gathering various ingredients for basically being alchemist, even temperatue control via fish or adding scaling with stat mechanic. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milordo Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Pig Princess said: It's just note in rework release that said: There is even this statement, in case you missed: In any case good interesting post, i like it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Princess Posted December 19, 2021 Author Share Posted December 19, 2021 11 minutes ago, Milordo said: There is even this statement, in case you missed: Yes, I knew about it, but it's basically "no means no" from the developers and it doesn't explain anything. Focusing on character's "fantasy role" is the clothest thing. I mean, they don't have to explain anything, but I can't help but seek good explanation anyway because this whole situation feels unfair and like a bad joke (sadly it isn't). 11 minutes ago, Milordo said: In any case good interesting post, i like it. Thank you! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 @Pig Princess a large part of your criticism against the current rework is based on it taking the player out of gameplay. The problem I have with this analysis is it doesn’t seem to account for how old wolfgang had to eat all the time to sustain mighty which also takes time. Current Wolf via gyms requires about 100 hunger and 5 seconds per in-game day to sustain mighty, so you probably need to eat twice and spend maybe 7-8 seconds total per 8 minutes. Old wolf needed 210-225 hunger per day to sustain the speed boost and max damage which meant you had to acquire and eat over twice as much food. You’d have to eat 3 bacon and eggs (or equivalent) per day, but in reality would probably eat something smaller 7-8 times or more to stay topped off. Old wolf saved time overall due to his speed, but watching Wolfgang chew food breaks the flow of gameplay too. I don’t believe you actually spend significant if any additional time pulled out of gameplay unless you’re using dumbbells poorly and underusing gyms. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck986 Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 I seriously don't understand why people hate gyms and dumbbells so much. First autumn is the hardest time for you because you probably don't want to waste resources on gold and normal bells, but all you need to make a maximum mighty gym is: a mighty gym (duh), a potter's wheel and a Terrarium - just kill an EoT, make its statues and voila, your gym is fully upgraded. Also you can collect every wild seed you see and quickly get some food from new farm plots (like really fast - combos are op pls nerf thx) And y'know, yesterday I was watching @Misuto and oh my god, gembells are so good - after he crafted it, he was staying mighty 24/7 without even building a mighty gym and successfully rushed the ruins on the first autumn. Yes, gembells may be a problem at the start, but you 1) don't need them all the time, and 2) they can keep you mighty for 12.6!!! days, which is A LOT for 1 amethyst and 2 cut stones. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 I made a suggestion (in suggestions sub forum) so the dumbbells have better synergy with gyms and offers a different approach to the mighty meter. 6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: Wolfgang should be able to use his dumbbells while moving but they do not increase the meter (only stopping increases the meter). Instead the different tiers of dumbbells all affects the meter drain differently, but still drain durability. Basic dumbbell: 30% slower depletion rate Gold dumbbell: 60% slower depletion rate Gembell: 90% (slower) depletion rate or completely halted This will help Wolfgang maintain any meter build up until the player has reached their destination or help maintain it during battle without breaking the flow of battle. Rather than having to make periodic stops to fill the meter in short bursts, the player can use up the durability of the dumbbells to prolong and maintain a single long workout session. This will also amplify the efficiency and power of a good network of gyms the player has built over time. Let me know what you guys think. I don't know what the durability drain should be though for every single unit of meter saved. I'm not good at maf. Also maybe add a speed reduction while moving and working out? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 It's a little funny that despite being a traveling circus performer, he's now one of the most inconvenient characters for a nomad playing style Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 30 minutes ago, Duck986 said: I seriously don't understand why people hate gyms and dumbbells so much. First autumn is the hardest time for you because you probably don't want to waste resources on gold and normal bells, but all you need to make a maximum mighty gym is: a mighty gym (duh), a potter's wheel and a Terrarium - just kill an EoT, make its statues and voila, your gym is fully upgraded. Also you can collect every wild seed you see and quickly get some food from new farm plots (like really fast - combos are op pls nerf thx) And y'know, yesterday I was watching @Misuto and oh my god, gembells are so good - after he crafted it, he was staying mighty 24/7 without even building a mighty gym and successfully rushed the ruins on the first autumn. Yes, gembells may be a problem at the start, but you 1) don't need them all the time, and 2) they can keep you mighty for 12.6!!! days, which is A LOT for 1 amethyst and 2 cut stones. I like to restart my worlds often, like usually I delete them once they reach day 300+ this WAS because my old Xbox couldn’t pull worlds that went much longer & because each time Klei releases an update: Retrofitting new content into old worlds sucks.. I mean it’s nice to have the option: but if you want to experience that content the way it’s intended, it’s best to start a new world so it can generate in properly. With that said I spend ALOT of time with “the early days” of just gathering stuff to build things & get established- that is my favorite part of the game.. and New Wolfgang feels like I need to do a little work to “get established” that’s a feeling I can get back every time I start a new world: a CHOICE I can make.. Do I use the limited twigs & stone I’ve gathered thus far to make stone dumbells to stay mighty? Do I save my twigs for torches or to fuel my campfires when I only have a few wood? Do I have TIME to pump this Dumbell before these spiders roaming dangerously close to my dimly lit fire on the first few nights decide they want to attack me? These are all things OLD Wolfgang DID NOT Do… you just ate stuff, punched harder and ran faster. NOW you have to ask yourself what you want to do first.. do you throw your stone dumbells at birds, Rabbits, butterflies for the easy food and easy healing..? Do you forget to pay attention to how many twigs, stone or cut stone you’ve burned through in using your dumbells so when you need those resources for torches, campfires, endo fires etc: your left with instant regret that you used those resources on getting back to mighty to deal with a hound den? Old Wolfgang never had these problems… and I think people who were used to him being a food solves all problems character are having a hard time adjusting.. Those people relied on speed and instant might to run away from and/or kill hound waves: Where as NOW you need to actually pay attention to your Mightiness and know when to be prepared to use it. I absolutely love the new Wolfgang, though there is still room for improvements. 3 minutes ago, Mangrove said: It's a little funny that despite being a traveling circus performer, he's now one of the most inconvenient characters for a nomad playing style False: All I ever do is play nomad, never building a base, in fact his NEW playstyle has you gathering resources MORE often and as I just explained making decisions on how you spend those resources. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 37 minutes ago, Duck986 said: I seriously don't understand why people hate gyms and dumbbells so much. They are not fun. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck986 Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Capybara007 said: They are not fun. having a black hole in the place of a belly isn't so fun too. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Duck986 said: having a black hole in the place of a belly isn't so fun too. No it wasnt, but just because before was bad doesnt mean now its good. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said: False: All I ever do is play nomad, never building a base, in fact his NEW playstyle has you gathering resources MORE often and as I just explained making decisions on how you spend those resources. I get that what I see as an inconvenience could be a fun and engaging feature for others (after all, I loved the rapidly dropping, linear might of old Wolfgang, an inconvenience to many). If I'm low on rocks I feel inconvenienced if I need to go back to a gym or a biome with rocks instead of having the freedom to continue doing whatever I was doing Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 22 minutes ago, Capybara007 said: No it wasnt, but just because before was bad doesnt mean now its good. To be honest (& this may upset the Klei dev team but I can’t help but speak truth..) The New Rework feels like how Wolfgang should’ve played in the original Dont Starve.. (with the Dumbell pumping and throwing, the gym & weighted mechanics feel “new enough” I guess But that’s just the problem: most of it feels like a rework designed for the ORIGINAL DS.. before characters started getting amazing fun reworks like Wendy, Webber, and even Wes. Wolfgangs rework doesn’t feel like an improvement to his gameplay, but rather.. a step backwards, Being Mighty should not feel boring.. don’t get me wrong I love the new rework and it’s better then what he had, But it still feels Outdated in terms of 2019-2021 content updates. I could sit and spitball random suggestions all day: My Yet another Wolfgang Thread is a good start. But if you want something new & unique in the same way Wickerbottom helped Woodie unlock more power: Maxwell granted him Nightmare infused Dumbell: Infused with Nightmare Fueled Magic, returns like a boomerang after being thrown.. This opens up things Wolfgang CANT currently do such as if there’s a Wobster den in a tiny stream he can aim, throw and break apart that den with his magical returning Dumbell. it just feels like they wanted to take the “safe route” with his rework, they made him feel like a 2013 DS character, but he just doesn’t hold up weight to the 2019 reworks. Im hoping they’ll come up really cool ideas for him and this isn’t all they do before deciding it’s time to move on to what’s next. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mangrove Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said: But that’s just the problem: it feels like a rework designed for the ORIGINAL DS Don't give them any ideas! xD * warcraft 3 remake flashbacks* 12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said: Wolfgangs rework doesn’t feel like an improvement to his gameplay, but rather.. a step backwards, Being Mighty should not feel boring Yeah, I would be much less upset over the rework if he at least was fun to play since I like his voice and quotes very much. 20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said: it just feels like they wanted to take the “safe route” with his rework, they made him feel like a 2013 DS character, but he just doesn’t hold up weight to the 2019 reworks. They changed so much about him and sparked so much controversy, what makes it the safe route? Do you mean safe in terms of power level? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1525991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Princess Posted December 19, 2021 Author Share Posted December 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Toros said: @Pig Princess a large part of your criticism against the current rework is based on it taking the player out of gameplay. 4 hours ago, Toros said: Current Wolf via gyms requires about 100 hunger and 5 seconds per in-game day to sustain mighty 4 hours ago, Toros said: Old wolf needed 210-225 hunger per day to sustain the speed boost and max damage While new Wolfgang consumes less food per mightyness time than old one and time needed to maintain mightyness while afk is nearly the same in your example, it's true only when you have gyms built and properly loaded across the map in such pattern that travelling from one to another takes less than 6.5 minutes of travel time (including time you stop and do things on the way) if we are comparing staying in permanent might playstyle in terms of time efficiency. However, Wolfgang needs to build all these gyms and load them with statues, and while 1 gym isn't that expensive, cost quickly adds up (mainly boards and time needed to transport statues/acquire resources for rebuilding potter wheel), as well as it being not an option on unmodded public servers. For megabase world these are not a problems, but in early game and/or when intentions of other players are unclear this strategy doesn't work. If one ignores gyms, however, one should be prepared to "eat" gems to be mighty or "eat" gold/stones to at least stay normal, other option is to add to gold/stones infinitely more time to be mighty. In the end mechanically speaking new Wolfgang substitutes part of hunger points with other materials compared to old Wolfgang, as well as demands more time to do things than Wilson if gembells/properly loaded gyms are not available (early game; also when ruins are cleared but not reset on pub). Or remains to be pathetic mechanically due to staying in newly nerfed wimpy form. Also minus one-sided synergy with Wormwood and Wendy (food generators) I assume (although technically Wendy still can turn monster meat/frog legs into gold for Wolfgang, but it still seems like a waste more than help). People also didn't stay permanently mighty, it was more interesting to choose when to stay in what form because each had it's own benefits. Now this choice and diversity is gone since developers probably wanted to insentivise players to stay permanently mighty - according to their character's "fantasy role" in mind - rather than to choose between forms and keeping/improving mechanical appeal. Your preferences coinsided with developers's point of view, so good for you. I would prefer to choose between forms, so not good for me. Moreover, my another concern is minigame which has nothing to do with actual gameplay; it's quick, sure, but one needs to do it frequently, and it's thing in itself, e.i. doesn't help to develop any skills relevant in-game, as well as doesn't involve any in-game content after being loaded and belt of hunger crafted for brief use. There is also strict relationship in heavy objects so basically it's boss statues "meta" when one can afford it, in other words, not much room for decisions. Previously one needed to eat frequently (too frequently for my taste and it was one of the major reasons why I didn't like to play Wolfgang, you are right, it was the same afk frames), however there were more room for decisions: with what to top off Wolfgang's hunger and when to eat during chase by hoard of mobs and during kiting (for both damage tresholds/dps and to avoid being stunlocked/hit). Mighty gym and dumbells inherited afk frames problem, while simultaneously taking good thing from playstyle - decisions player has to make and connection to the game. I think in that case best decision disign-wise would be to either substitute minigame with actual useful thing player does inside the gym or scrap the gym and retie mightyness gain/maintaining to something else without this problem; another option to remove/reduce drastically afk time would be leaving dumbells as a mean of raising mightyness while making them liftable during movement and adding new properties to them/configurable mighty state, maybe even more types of them if they weren't basically the same, e.i. better-worse versions on the scale of identical parameters. That way afk would be gone and desicions present. Lack of decisions makes mechanic less interactable, and therefore less fun. My other concern you didn't mention is that gameplay didn't become deeper, on the contrary, mightiness system problems aside, double damage is powerful but very rarely makes fights unique compared to Wilson in terms of quality - literally only Dragonfly without walls, panflute method for Bee Queen and Fuelweaver fight with Bee Queen crown while fully tanking without preserving durability of the BQC, everything else is result of tresholds and reduced cost of mistakes, a lot of them Wolfgang shares with Wigfrid, Wanda, Warly. While it seems like a lot on paper, in reality it's a couple of mobs with 100 health and 2 bosses whose second and consecutive kills matter much less than first, as well as ultimate stretch for 3rd one. In that area Wolfgang only lost after rework and that's why it feels unfair compared to every other character. Finally, no adjustments were made to make Wolfgang directly bring something to the team and engage with DST-exclusive content, which wasn't the case for everyone else, only Webber didn't gain something for the team, but he has incentive to engage in DST-exclusive content and tools for that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pig Princess Posted December 19, 2021 Author Share Posted December 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Duck986 said: First autumn is the hardest time for you because you probably don't want to waste resources on gold and normal bells, but all you need to make a maximum mighty gym is: a mighty gym (duh), a potter's wheel and a Terrarium - just kill an EoT, make its statues and voila, your gym is fully upgraded. Yes, that's the problem: basically one thing you need to do and other options being strictly inferior. That is one of my problems with gyms, as well as with dumbells. 3 hours ago, Duck986 said: Also you can collect every wild seed you see and quickly get some food from new farm plots Let me introduce volt goats, werepigs, Moose/Goose and butterflies to you, as well as basic carrots/juicy berries if you can't be bothered with cooking meat/killing butterfies. Farm plots, however, are very time consuming (time is hunger) and, most importantly, tie you to one location, and this is the reason you value removal of "black hole in the place of a belly" so much. 3 hours ago, Duck986 said: And y'know, yesterday I was watching @Misuto and oh my god, gembells are so good Thing is as far as I know even in rushes Misuto doesn't mind afking, and afking as a concept is a problem. Also he does rushes in ideal circumstances, e.i. in his own worlds, and pubs generally lack a lot of essential resources unlike private worlds. Plus even gembells and gyms are still lazy option, they can be grindy or in shortage, but they lack interaction with player/connection to the game post crafting, diversity, as well as flexibility. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Duck986 said: having a black hole in the place of a belly isn't so fun too. Not fun is better than unfun. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck986 Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 6 hours ago, Pig Princess said: Let me introduce volt goats, werepigs, Moose/Goose and butterflies to you, as well as basic carrots/juicy berries if you can't be bothered with cooking meat/killing butterfies. Farm plots, however, are very time consuming (time is hunger) and, most importantly, tie you to one location, and this is the reason you value removal of "black hole in the place of a belly" so much. Farm plots were just an example, I just meant that food in DST is not a problem at all. I agree, they take some time at the start, but after tou get crops you need, you can plant combos and still get a lot of food effortlessly. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 @Pig Princess I disagree about people not staying mighty with old Wolfgang. Since there was a speed boost, you benefited from staying mighty any time you weren’t standing still, and while normal form was largely unchanged, wimpy form had similar downsides including a speed penalty. New Wolfgang unless you’re fighting has little difference between normal and wimpy, and you easily can spend the first 7 days wimpy with 1x hunger drain as you explore the map and don’t bother with the mighty meter at all. If hounds come before you decide on a base location, you can deal with them in normal form just like everyone else does. I am far more comfortable being normal or wimpy with new wolfgang than old wolfgang. Old wimpy form was horrible at everything and normal form was the same as now but had a substantially larger hunger drain (1.5x vs 1.33x). Maintaining mighty form or maintaining normal form doesn’t actually cost any less in terms of hunger or gym time, but unless you’re fighting, using a piggyback, or doing repeated work actions (chopping, mining) there’s no need to maintain mighty. I think there’s a lot more interesting decisions now because gyms give you a zone of control where being mighty is cheap and easy, and gembells give you an option to gain and maintain mighty when away from a gym at a cost of about 15 seconds per 8 minutes assuming you don’t mind being in normal form for 1.5 minutes. Once they buff Wolf’s rowing people can also make gym boats with no sails which have no disadvantages as they’re fast and can have all sorts of amenities. A driftwood oar is more nimble and faster than a single sail, and gyms don’t take up much space on a boat. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astraia Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 I did this on Maxwell memes but who cares 12 hours ago, Milordo said: Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Being a skinny man living in a house with my dad and sister who I wouldn’t call “fat” or “Obese” although neither one of them care being called either of those words and take them as a compliment: I can say I’m living proof of the Skinny Man getting cold faster then the well plump one. My sister and my dad can get hot wanting the air conditioner turned on meanwhile there I am wearing a jacket with chill bumps already and that’s all BEFORE turning the AC on. So there is some real life truth behind Skinny Wolfgang having less insulation then his other forms. Just food for thought. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said: Being a skinny man living in a house with my dad and sister who I wouldn’t call “fat” or “Obese” although neither one of them care being called either of those words and take them as a compliment: I can say I’m living proof of the Skinny Man getting cold faster then the well plump one. My sister and my dad can get hot wanting the air conditioner turned on meanwhile there I am wearing a jacket with chill bumps already and that’s all BEFORE turning the AC on. So there is some real life truth behind Skinny Wolfgang having less insulation then his other forms. Just food for thought. The ability of a body to exchange heat is dependent on the surface area to volume ratio. The square cube law tells us that as an object increases in size, the volume increases at a greater rate than the surface area so there is slower heat exchange. There is some science to support Wolfgang being resistant to changes in temperature simply due to being larger. This works fine when it comes to staying warm in cold temperatures, the problem is that it doesn’t work as well for sustained hot temperatures. For staying warm muscles can generate enormous amounts of heat and having less surface area means Wolf would retain it better. However, in hot temperatures he’d still have those muscles generating heat and would have less surface area for evaporative cooling via sweat. In practice, Wolf would do better in the cold while mighty and do better in the heat while wimpy. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 Damn Wendy must be freezing her butt off then, I guess she doesn't because she's too depressed to feel the cold. Actually when you think about it, it must be all that surface area on her forehead. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136327-character-fantasy-and-mechanical-implementation-relationship-in-the-context-of-reworks/#findComment-1526245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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