Wolfgang refresh, his speed boost, and some other thoughts

[mr. brj]

In this thread I will first be summarizing my stand on the Wolfgang character refresh, and then will be discussing why Wolfgang's speed boost should stay. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of the new Wolfgang for various reasons. I might create other threads regarding the other nerfs or the new mightiness meter in the next days, but right now I wanted to stick to a subject that I think is mostly misunderstood in the community.

 

My Thoughts on the Refresh

 

Let me start by giving my overall opinion. I don't think that the new Wolfgang is a bad character. It is, however, definitely not the old Wolfgang, both gameplay-wise (accessibility to his perks and his general game plan) and stat-wise (both the buffs and the nerfs), which makes me feel like this refresh removed one character and replaced it with another. Although Wolfgang used to be a better survivor than most characters thanks to his perks, I don't see a reason to remove most of these perks if the intention of this game is to provide the best experience possible. I always believed that Klei aimed for this intention in their games, and I hope I am not mistaken.

 

If people didn't enjoy Wolfgang before, then I guess it was their loss, either because they didn't give his full potential a decent try or because he was unable to satisfy those players. The second reason is completely understandable and I respect it fully, but I honestly don't understand the need for a nerf when there are so many other alternatives in a potential character refresh. I hope that anyone who is willing to see the points I am trying to make here will at least understand what we will be missing after the refresh. I just don't want us Wolfgang players to lose this character because other players didn't give him a chance, I want to be able to continue playing as Wolfgang because I enjoy playing as him.

 

And finally, please consider that there are players, such as myself, who can't play DST with other people or who prefer to play the game by themselves. The old Wolfgang allowed us to start over a new world if we did something irreversible in our current worlds, by enabling a smooth experience for starting over. The current state of the refresh sadly ignores this aspect too.

 

The Wolfgang Experience and the Speed Boost

 

Now, what makes Wolfgang's speed boost so unique that makes his gameplay enjoyable to the Wolfgang players, and why does the speed boost make Wolfgang's gameplay different? Wolfgang is definitely not a bad character without his speed boost, and he doesn't need the speed boost to be playable. But the Wolfgang experience is not possible without the speed boost. Without it, his gameplay follows roughly the same route as with almost any other character.

 

Contrary to the popular belief, Wolfgang is primarily a resource saver, especially in solo worlds. In order to save resources, he needs to fill his time schedule as much as possible, in most cases with bosses. In order to keep up with his schedule, Wolfgang needs his damage during the fights, and needs his speed when going from a point to another. Rushing an early tamed beefalo for extra speed, for example, is avoided for the reason that it is an expensive task, not because Wolfgang won't benefit from a beefalo. And although a matter of playstyle, the same can be said for rushing the ruins as well. Wolfgang neither needs an early Magiluminessence for a smooth Bee Queen/Klaus fight, nor requires a Thulecite Club for easier kiting. 

 

Before pointing out the "unbalanced" advantage of an easily accessible speed boost combined with extra damage, consider the following: what objectives can you achieve during the first 35 days of your game if you didn't need to rush the ruins for an early speed boost? Build a fully functioning base that only lacks the best head slot armor in the game? Done. Find all the important stuff lying all over the ocean? Possible before the first Winter. Rush all the raid bosses on the mainland and leave the main story arc for the later seasons? The standard Wolfgang gameplay. Setup your meat and crop farms? Still time to kill Bee Queen.

 

All this stuff, and many others, are possible routes you can take with Wolfgang if you are already comfortable playing the game. I admit that there is a certain skill cap that needs to be achieved in order to play him efficiently, but I don't think that this cap is as high as people think. Wolfgang is a character that tends to have a playstyle around rushing not only major, but also minor objectives not because he is primarily the boss slayer, rather because he has the luxury of leaving certain objectives to a later part of the game. This is his playstyle, and this is the Wolfgang experience. And all of this is possible mainly because he doesn't have to worry about his speed so early.

 

This doesn't make his gameplay boring in any way, quite the opposite is actually the case. The old Wolfgang allows you to choose from one of the many routes you can take, enabling a versatile playstyle for players of all interests, be it boss rushing, mega base building, or even both. And it is totally understandable if you believe that the Wolfgang experience is unsatisfactory or unrewarding. Just don't forget that there are players who enjoy this experience, and please consider their interests in this game as well. Us Wolfgang players are not all Edgy Ricks: we play with other characters, respect players regardless of their skill and want to be able to play the game from the start to the point where our base looks fancy. Some of us sadly lack the time for a full commitment to DST, and Wolfgang is the best character to compensate for this without altering the default game through mods or world settings.

[HellHeater]

no

[Duck986]

stop

[Dextops]

15 minutes ago, HellHeater said:

no

hey thats my thing

anyway

yes

[Troppok]

My biggest issue with the rework is "tedious" please, please for the love of Klei give mighty points for mining rocks and cutting trees, let players over eat to get mighty, anything to make it LESS tedious.

[Mangrove]

30 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

this refresh removed one character and replaced it with another

This is what breaks my heart the most.

 

32 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

the Wolfgang experience is not possible without the speed boost

I agree! I love Wolfgang for the rushing/man-on-the-go playstyle and how fun he makes kiting.

 

37 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

This doesn't make his gameplay boring in any way, quite the opposite is actually the case.

Yes, he gives you so much freedom to just enjoy the game! And despite thinking that Wanda is more powerful (and fun in her own way), I play Wolfgang because I think he's the most fun character.

[Peyo33]

A character refresh is supposed to give something new to the character not to take off something. What this new Wolfgang give to the group? A nice Gym that he can only use? An amazing ability to move statues faster? (that's not an ability that you can emulate with a beefalo/walter, no) He gives nothing, only downside for him.

Maybe, just maybe, i can get rid off the speed boost but you have to give him 3x damage.

[GenomeSquirrel]

1 hour ago, mr. brj said:

Without it, his gameplay follows roughly the same route as with almost any other character.

This is good design, this is something that should not be broken without incurring extra risk, having penalties attached, having time and resources invested. Wolfgang is a generalist that lives a comfy Wilson life, he doesn't need to be better at most things without trade offs.

[Mangrove]

8 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

This is good design, this is something that should not be broken without incurring extra risk, having penalties attached, having time and resources invested. Wolfgang is a generalist that lives a comfy Wilson life, he doesn't need to be better at most things without trade offs.

If they feel a nerf is justifiable, it would be better to expand on his drawbacks rather than removing a unique draw to the character.

Edit: by "better" I mean less upsetting to Wolfgang players

[Dollmaker]

I dont mind the speed removal when you take into consideration what he gained in return.

He can consistently do 2X now during the full duration of Mighty Form unlike before.

He can use both Piggy Bag and Marble Armor with no speed penalty, which is an exclusive perk to him, both pretty mayor buffs. 

His Might Form lasts nearly a day, and with a Gold or Gem bell you can easily keep it going, once the Gym is fully upgraded which can be really fast if you take out one of the bosses early, you can go from 0 to 100 in a few secs.

(Theres also the speed buff when carrying heavy stuff which is a godsend for Wolfgang players, cause dealing with a Beefalo is annoying, and moving boats fasters by rowing.) 

When you think about it, all of this is far more fitting to him, perks related to his strength, the speed perk was just weird, and besides that mobility type of thing was hardly exclusive to him at this point, several other characters have ways to move faster, either by speed or teleportation. 

[GenomeSquirrel]

Just now, Mangrove said:

If they feel a nerf is justifiable, it would be better to expand on his drawbacks rather than removing a unique draw to the character.

But he never had any, his drawback depends on food not being plentiful, but it's plentiful and can be made even more plentiful as the game goes on.

 

[Dollmaker]

2 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

But he never had any, his drawback depends on food not being plentiful, but it's plentiful and can be made even more plentiful as the game goes on.

 

His main drawbacks now would be bigger loss of Sanity, and not being able to enter Mighty Form reliably in the middle of a fight.

Also being weaker early game. 

[Capybara007]

5 minutes ago, Dollmaker said:

He can use both Piggy Bag and Marble Armor with no speed penalty, which is an exclusive perk to him, both pretty mayor buffs.  

He was already able to use piggy bag with no penalty

[Dextops]

5 minutes ago, Dollmaker said:

I dont mind the speed removal when you take into consideration what he gained in return.

He can consistently do 2X now during the full duration of Mighty Form unlike before.

He can use both Piggy Bag and Marble Armor with no speed penalty, which is an exclusive perk to him, both pretty mayor buffs. 

His Might Form lasts nearly a day, and with a Gold or Gem bell you can easily keep it going, once the Gym is fully upgraded which can be really fast if you take out one of the bosses early, you can go from 0 to 100 in a few secs.

(Theres also the speed buff when carrying heavy stuff which is a godsend for Wolfgang players, cause dealing with a Beefalo is annoying, and moving boats fasters by rowing.) 

When you think about it, all of this is far more fitting to him, perks related to his strength, the speed perk was just weird, and besides that mobility type of thing was hardly exclusive to him at this point, several other characters have ways to move faster, either by speed or teleportation. 

im tired of being a broken record but
1.it wasn't a fair trade off it removed all his generalization for a perk that was already kinda meh
2.old wolfgang could already carry pig sac with no penalty also beefalo exist and kiting with a marble suit is kinda dumb
3.his mightyness form lasting longer has no purpose when its only use is for combat and most fights will be ended before its over and there is no incentive to maintain it out of combat

[Mangrove]

1 minute ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

But he never had any, his drawback depends on food not being plentiful, but it's plentiful and can be made even more plentiful as the game goes on.

They could expand on his fears/sanity problems, reduce his HP (I admit a speedy fighter doesn't need that must HP) or just add something entirely new. I dunno, anything works, just don't gut the character :/

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Peyo33 said:

only downside for him

which one? they reduced the hunger drain so you are a wilson with x2 damage for "free"

[landromat]

13 minutes ago, Dextops said:

kiting with a marble suit is kinda dumb

why

[Dextops]

7 minutes ago, landromat said:

why

because marble suit is used for tanking which should be its general purpose if you're kiting you have no reason to wear a high protection armor piece i'd rather wear a mag

[Peyo33]

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

which one? they reduced the hunger drain so you are a wilson with x2 damage for "free"

They not reduced the hunger drain, when you use the gym the hunger drain very fast, on mighty form if you have half hunger he loses the mighty form faster.

He lost the speed boost, he get more sanity drain when alone in the dark (i really don't care about this), he lost the extra hp (also don't care about this too).

Now it's very tedious maintaining his mighty form, you spend a lot of time and hunger with the gym. Only the gembell worth it but in early game doesn't worth playing with him. Wigfrid is better, she has 1.5x damage, hp and sanity drain, also the possibility to get good armor and weapon for few rock and gold, with her rework Klei didn't nerf her but she gained some new funny addiction to her character, her only downside? Eating only meat (lol).

[Eery]

9 minutes ago, Peyo33 said:

They not reduced the hunger drain, when you use the gym the hunger drain very fast, on mighty form if you have half hunger he loses the mighty form faster.

He lost the speed boost, he get more sanity drain when alone in the dark (i really don't care about this), he lost the extra hp (also don't care about this too).

Now it's very tedious maintaining his mighty form, you spend a lot of time and hunger with the gym. Only the gembell worth it but in early game doesn't worth playing with him. Wigfrid is better, she has 1.5x damage, hp and sanity drain, also the possibility to get good armor and weapon for few rock and gold, with her rework Klei didn't nerf her but she gained some new funny addiction to her character, her only downside? Eating only meat (lol).

Wigfrid has a 1.25x damage, not a 1.5x like u said and even if the only meat diet is his only downside, what downside old Wolfgang had?, a faster hunger drain... really?, old Wolfgang didn't had a proper downside, so now that the 2x damage mult is consistent and easy to maintain it makes sense the speed nerf.

[GenomeSquirrel]

 

22 minutes ago, Mangrove said:

They could expand on his fears/sanity problems, reduce his HP (I admit a speedy fighter doesn't need that must HP) or just add something entirely new. I dunno, anything works, just don't gut the character :/

He needs gutting, he was stuffed with too many good things under the false assumption he would undergo equally bad things. Since then we've learned hunger is easy mode, that's why the new meter was created, the 3 standard meters are too easy fill, and speed is too good to be tied to easy meters. While the newer meter is also easy, they kept Wolfgang's former ease in maintaining it, now the upside is something balanced with the difficulty attaining it.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

This is good design, this is something that should not be broken without incurring extra risk, having penalties attached, having time and resources invested. Wolfgang is a generalist that lives a comfy Wilson life, he doesn't need to be better at most things without trade offs.

To be fair Webber completely ignores this mindset his horde mechanic removes any real risks while his perks greatly reward him with little to no expenditure.

[landromat]

2 minutes ago, Peyo33 said:

a lot of time and hunger with the gym

Just tested that. That's 20 sec and 2 meat balls to get from 0 to 100

You also get 2 per sec from gem dumbbells without any hunger loss. So you basically lift on the gym once and then just walk with dumbbells without any hunger loss and minimal time loss. Maintaining his form is not a problem at all in late game

[Mangrove]

2 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

He needs gutting, he was stuffed with too many good things under the false assumption he would undergo equally bad things. Since then we've learned hunger is easy mode, that's why the new meter was created, the 3 standard meters are too easy fill, and speed is too good to be tied to easy meters. While the newer meter is also easy, they kept Wolfgang's former ease in maintaining it, now the upside is something balanced with the difficulty attaining it.

You think there's no possible drawback big enough that could compensate for his speed?

[Dextops]

22 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

 

He needs gutting, he was stuffed with too many good things under the false assumption he would undergo equally bad things. Since then we've learned hunger is easy mode, that's why the new meter was created, the 3 standard meters are too easy fill, and speed is too good to be tied to easy meters. While the newer meter is also easy, they kept Wolfgang's former ease in maintaining it, now the upside is something balanced with the difficulty attaining it.

then at least make him fun if you're going to gut him