Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[JustExo]

5 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I think you and @EATZYOWAFFLEZ slept for over almost 2 years now that the rework has passed. 

Nobody here ever said Wendy is not strong when she is almost too strong.

There have been for almost a year a lot of "discussions" to nerf her lol.

I never said Wendy isn't strong, don't put words in my mouth please

[Milordo]

25 minutes ago, JustExo said:

People don't give her enough credit for what she's able to do

Just saying this. All people already gave her enough credits, so i wanted to update you that she's not understood or underrated from the community or people in general.

[sudoku]

When did the focus of character refreshes become about a percieved game balance in a co op game? 

Outside of Willow who got butchered in the transition from SP to DST, I thought the goal was to make characters more dynamic and fun to play. 

At the end of the day i dont care whether a character is percieved as being OP or weak, only that they are fun to play and well designed. I feel like klei only caters to the balance crowd so much because it is harped on ad nauseum.

[Well-met]

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

When did the focus of character refreshes become about a percieved game balance in a co op game? 

Outside of Willow who got butchered in the transition from SP to DST, I thought the goal was to make characters more dynamic and fun to play. 

At the end of the day i dont care whether a character is percieved as being OP or weak, only that they are fun to play and well designed. I feel like klei only caters to the balance crowd so much because it is harped on ad nauseum.

balance matters so you don't see people picking the same 1-2 classes constantly when there is so many choices and klei spends so much time developing new content

from a public server perspective of course. Do what you want in singleplayer nobody cares

[Milordo]

4 minutes ago, sudoku said:

When did the focus of character refreshes become about a percieved game balance in a co op game? 

Outside of Willow who got butchered in the transition from SP to DST, I thought the goal was to make characters more dynamic and fun to play. 

At the end of the day i dont care whether a character is percieved as being OP or weak, only that they are fun to play and well designed. I feel like klei only caters to the balance crowd so much because it is harped on ad nauseum.

Your comment and point it's something already a lot of people said and we all approve.

However balance IS important. I'm tired of hearing this. "Co-op" or "singleplayers games" are not an excuse for not balancing the game, ESPECIALLY Don't Starve. A sandbox game where the difficulty rely on strategic decisions, apart from not knowning mechanics,ecc...

If only some options became useful and better than other 100 options in the game, then it's less fun, enganging and enjoyable. The game became stale and repetitive really fast. 

Balance it's always important.  

[JustExo]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

When did the focus of character refreshes become about a percieved game balance in a co op game? 

Outside of Willow who got butchered in the transition from SP to DST, I thought the goal was to make characters more dynamic and fun to play. 

At the end of the day i dont care whether a character is percieved as being OP or weak, only that they are fun to play and well designed. I feel like klei only caters to the balance crowd so much because it is harped on ad nauseum.

I think the idea of character balance in this game is valid to an extent, but people never look at the game or character as a whole and only choose to view it based off of small isolated aspects

In this instance, people tend to argue that Wolfgang's op because he hyperspecializes in combat, but don't take the time to acknowledge combat is one part of the game, and wolfgang has very few perks that contribute to how good he is outside of that

One also has to call into question to what extent balance even matters in this game because, as you bring up, its a co-op game, and it doesn't have any one specific way to play it

[Yuuko]

19 minutes ago, reallychina said:

I think the new system is much more balanced when it comes to getting mighty. Gembell is very fast and there's no excuse to not be ready, hound waves have a long warning period. Even if get caught pants down, it's part of the beauty of the game.

30 seconds warning is enough to get mighty and prepare for fire hounds?  idk about that...

[Milordo]

Just now, Shosuko said:

30 seconds warning is enough to get mighty and prepare for fire hounds?  idk about that...

OH....Oh...

This is actually a first big good point brought up this day. Hound and Deepthworm waves could become tedious and annoying, never thought about it...

[sudoku]

3 minutes ago, Well-met said:

balance matters so you don't see people picking the same 1-2 classes constantly when there is so many choices and klei spends so much time developing new content

from a public server perspective of course. Do what you want in singleplayer nobody cares

Of course balance matters, but unless something is overtuned to the point of breaking the game then who cares? Was Wolfgang breaking the game in his past state? He existed for 5 years as he was and the game was just fine.

Wendy was the most popular character pre rework and surprise shes still the most popular character afterwards. It was her character design and ghost summoning mechanic people liked. No shift in balance changed that.

 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

Wait so you guys are saying that Wendy's 1.155x damage plus Abigail's 40 damage (which if we assume a hambat is being used is essentially a 1.815x multiplier), which is only usable on small to medium creatures and a handful of bosses, is equal to Wolfgang's 2x damage and 1.25x speed multiplier? And this is ignoring the fact that fighting a lot of seasonal bosses with Wendy takes sooo long because of her usual .75x damage without Abigail. I'd love to be proven wrong cause Wendy being op is hilarious to me, but I just can't see the logic behind it.

 

(Edited for miscalc on numbers, accidentally put in 1.115)

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Milordo said:

OH....Oh...

This is actually a first big good point brought up this day. Hound and Deepthworm waves could become tedious and annoying, never thought about it...

sarcasm to elude the point.

One of the main problems with mighty now is that it gives nothing but 2x damage.  The only reason to stay mighty is for combat.  IF you grind and stay might all the time, and don't have combat you have wasted time and played inefficiently.  IF you forgo the grind because you aren't planning combat and combat comes upon you, you are dealing significantly less damage and have played inefficiently.

There is no way to actually play newWolf efficiently since combat can be random.  Whether its hound attacks, seasonal bosses, treeguards, spider queens, whatever.  You have to grind every day in case there is combat, always wasting resources.  Ignoring marble armor and piggypack reductions aren't a good reason to stay mighty b/c you don't need marble armor to fight, and piggy pack is outclassed by krampus sack, having chester, or just having good inventory management.

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

Of course balance matters, but unless something is overtuned to the point of breaking the game then who cares? Was Wolfgang breaking the game in his past state? He existed for 5 years as he was and the game was just fine.

considering his speed buff created an entire metagame amongst some of the playerbase then yes you could say that greatly affects the game by how its obstacles are balanced toward the non-wolfgang.

of course your definition of "breaking the game" is likely very literal and unapplicable here

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Wendy was the most popular character pre rework and surprise shes still the most popular character afterwards. It was her character design and ghost summoning mechanic people liked. No shift in balance changed that.

 

what are you trying to say?

[Yuuko]

7 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Wait so you guys are saying that Wendy's 1.115x damage plus Abigail's 40 damage (which if we assume a hambat is being used is essentially a 1.775x multiplier), which is only usable on small to medium creatures and a handful of bosses, is equal to Wolfgang's 2x damage and 1.25x speed multiplier? And this is ignoring the fact that fighting a lot of seasonal bosses with Wendy takes sooo long because of her usual .75x damage without Abigail. I'd love to be proven wrong cause Wendy being op is hilarious to me, but I just can't see the logic behind it.

Do you not know about the Wendy + Beefalo strat?  Beefalo aren't hard to get anymore.  Add an ornery beef to Wendy and you have speed, damage, tanking, transport marble, use piggypack, etc.  Abigail can help with most bosses, it takes some playing and experience but she is a net benefit.  Sure Wolf is best at *allbosses* but for how much utility you get from Abi its easily a fair trade for the few bosses Abi can't play with.

4 minutes ago, Well-met said:

what are you trying to say?

Imagine what he'd be saying if Klei kept their first Wendy rework lol

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Wait so you guys are saying that Wendy's 1.115x damage plus Abigail's 40 damage (which if we assume a hambat is being used is essentially a 1.775x multiplier), which is only usable on small to medium creatures and a handful of bosses, is equal to Wolfgang's 2x damage and 1.25x speed multiplier? And this is ignoring the fact that fighting a lot of seasonal bosses with Wendy takes sooo long because of her usual .75x damage without Abigail. I'd love to be proven wrong cause Wendy being op is hilarious to me, but I just can't see the logic behind it.

As a Wendy Main it takes me on average about 3 days give or take to kill Deerclops, Bearger??? Forget it.. your DEAD. Dragonfly?? Doable but it will take Forever.

With Wigfrid.. You can kill Deerclops in 1 Minute by just face tanking it with a battle spear and Marble armor with maybe 2 pierogi 

As Wolfgang… Deerclops?? What Deerclops?

For Wendy it takes me roughly 20 days and a lot of failed attempts to kill Dragonfly, For Pre-Rework Wolfgang: Dragonfly??? I don’t see no Dragonfly.

Now to be Fair about this criticism Klei has gone on record stating that Wolfgang’s Sole design intent was to be BEST at beating up the games big bads (you can actually find a Dev post stating this if you search the forums hard enough) so OF COURSE Wolfgang’s going to make short work of the Bosses… that’s his designed Intention.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a Wendy Main it takes me on average about 3 days give or take to kill Deerclops, Bearger??? Forget it.. your DEAD. Dragonfly?? Doable but it will take Forever.

With Wigfrid.. You can kill Deerclops in 1 Minute by just face tanking it with a battle spear and Marble armor with maybe 2 pierogi 

As Wolfgang… Deerclops?? What Deerclops?

For Wendy it takes me roughly 20 days and a lot of failed attempts to kill Dragonfly, For Pre-Rework Wolfgang: Dragonfly??? I don’t see no Dragonfly.

Now to be Fair about this criticism Klei has gone on record stating that Wolfgang’s Sole design intent was to be BEST at beating up the games big bads (you can actually find a Dev post stating this if you search the forums hard enough) so OF COURSE Wolfgang’s going to make short work of the Bosses… that’s his designed Intention.

If you give Abi a big heal pot you can drop a fireplace and facetank deerclops with a hambat about as quick as Wigfrid can.

Bearger is better off put somewhere else...  No matter who I play, I built a telelocator focus and move him to the lunar islands.  I bring him back when I want logs though ^_^

Dragonfly and bqueen are places where Abi helps a LOT.  The single target nature of dfly means Abi never takes damage, only gives it.  Just make sure you have her in calm mode, so she backs off when dfly goes rage.  bqueen is basically use a heal pot, have Abi follow you in calm and take care of grumbles while you hold F on the bqueen.

Abi can't help for shadows, but you can just use a beef.  The extra tankiness helps b/c bishop is annoying.  Remount while the shadows transition forms.  Standard knight => bishop => rook order.  imo a beef is essential to Wendy's kit anyway, since it bypasses your damage penalty without holding back your damage gains.

[Milordo]

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

sarcasm to elude the point.

One of the main problems with mighty now is that it gives nothing but 2x damage.  The only reason to stay mighty is for combat.  IF you grind and stay might all the time, and don't have combat you have wasted time and played inefficiently.  IF you forgo the grind because you aren't planning combat and combat comes upon you, you are dealing significantly less damage and have played inefficiently.

There is no way to actually play newWolf efficiently since combat can be random.  Whether its hound attacks, seasonal bosses, treeguards, spider queens, whatever.  You have to grind every day in case there is combat, always wasting resources.  Ignoring marble armor and piggypack reductions aren't a good reason to stay mighty b/c you don't need marble armor to fight, and piggy pack is outclassed by krampus sack, having chester, or just having good inventory management.

I wasn't sarcastic, but okay.....

[Yuuko]

Just now, Milordo said:

I wasn't sarcastic, but okay.....

 

18 minutes ago, Milordo said:

OH....Oh... Hound and Deepthworm waves could become tedious and annoying, never thought about it...

That wasn't sarcasm?? lol  sry My bad

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If you give Abi a big heal pot you can drop a fireplace and facetank deerclops with a hambat about as quick as Wigfrid can.

Bearger is better off put somewhere else...  No matter who I play, I built a telelocator focus and move him to the lunar islands.  I bring him back when I want logs though ^_^

Dragonfly and bqueen are places where Abi helps a LOT.  The single target nature of dfly means Abi never takes damage, only gives it.  Just make sure you have her in calm mode, so she backs off when dfly goes rage.  bqueen is basically use a heal pot, have Abi follow you in calm and take care of grumbles while you hold F on the bqueen.

Not sure if you play with Xbox Controller or not but I need to be within spear slapping distance of Abigail to return her to her flower and heal her up so: the moment I do that.. I get smacked around by that angry Dragonfly. 
 

I want to see how Wolfgang’s Rework plays on an Xbox Controller, I imagine throwing the Dumbells at ANYTHING is going to be a pure pain…

[herding dog]

20 minutes ago, sudoku said:

When did the focus of character refreshes become about a percieved game balance in a co op game? 

Outside of Willow who got butchered in the transition from SP to DST, I thought the goal was to make characters more dynamic and fun to play. 

At the end of the day i dont care whether a character is percieved as being OP or weak, only that they are fun to play and well designed. I feel like klei only caters to the balance crowd so much because it is harped on ad nauseum.

I've wondered the same thing as well. I keep seeing comments that treat some kind of uniformity in character design as sacrosanct. A lot of people are approaching this game as an engineering problem. If I'm being charitable, I think it's because they care about the game so much, want it to be the best game it can be and also want to be associated with a high-quality game. 

To me, DST is a silly (in a good way) game; I don't need things to make sense. Wolfgang is a strongman who can run fast - does that make perfect sense? I don't really know, but that's fine, because it makes the character fun to play. I don't need all of his abilities to be coherent with his back story. You can feed light bulbs to pigs in this game and they poop - the game is silly and not everything makes sense.

I like Wolfgang as he is now. He adds color to the spectrum of experiences you can have in the game by playing with different characters. Is the character roster as it's currently configured the optimal combination of characters and abilities? Who knows. I'm not sure the optimal combination can ever be reached. Given that to be true, and given the nature of DST and that it is not PVP, I think it makes more sense to focus on how much fun characters are to play. That's why I don't understand the preoccupation with balance. Right now, there's a wide range of characters to play that provide different experiences. Most people seem to be able to find a character that is fun to play for them personally, so I don't see the need to make many changes to the characters themselves. I'm not saying changes shouldn't be made, but at a certain point, the artist has to step away from their work.

You could spend eternity trying to perfectly balance a game.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Do you not know about the Wendy + Beefalo strat?  Beefalo aren't hard to get anymore.  Add an ornery beef to Wendy and you have speed, damage, tanking, transport marble, use piggypack, etc.  Abigail can help with most bosses, it takes some playing and experience but she is a net benefit.  Sure Wolf is best at *allbosses* but for how much utility you get from Abi its easily a fair trade for the few bosses Abi can't play with.

Tbh I forget about beefalo because playing with them has always seemed like the LAMEST way to counteract character downsides, so good point there. Still though, Wolfgang is way better at bosses which is where most progression lies. Also if you are healpot tanking with Abi you're wasting a ton of resources as you are likely tanking yourself. Abigail really only helps with bee queen, fuel weaver, and dragon fly. (Maybe toadstool, but that strat takes sooo long).

[sudoku]

25 minutes ago, Well-met said:

considering his speed buff created an entire metagame amongst some of the playerbase then yes you could say that greatly affects the game by how its obstacles are balanced toward the non-wolfgang.

of course your definition of "breaking the game" is likely very literal and unapplicable here

what are you trying to say?

Im not gonna get into a super heated discussion about balance and metas. I am only observing that many people who took issue with Wolfgang deemed him boring because they considered him OP, whereas i think he was boring because he simply wasnt that fun to play. Eating tons of food for 2x damage is a boring playstyle and substituting a gym for the food and removing his speed is still a boring playsyle.

Id rather instead of them going in with the intent to nerf Wolfgang they went in to give him new unique interesting gameplay to coincide with his damage perk.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Id rather instead of them going in with the intent to nerf Wolfgang they went in to give him new unique interesting gameplay to coincide with his damage perk.

Wolfgang can throw potatoes. Boom.

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Id rather instead of them going in with the intent to nerf Wolfgang they went in to give him new unique interesting gameplay to coincide with his damage perk.

but they just did in many ways...

even dumbbells are throwable

[Orty97]

Hmmm, it would seem that DST updated the beta branch. I can't really play right now, can someone tell me if anything changed?

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Not sure if you play with Xbox Controller or not but I need to be within spear slapping distance of Abigail to return her to her flower and heal her up so: the moment I do that.. I get smacked around by that angry Dragonfly. 
 

I want to see how Wolfgang’s Rework plays on an Xbox Controller, I imagine throwing the Dumbells at ANYTHING is going to be a pure pain…

You don't need to put abi back to heal her, but timing isn't very important either.  What I do is drop the fireplace, lure deerclops, and after the first hit I summon abi and give her heal, then hold F until I win.

Also - I bet throwing the dumbell will be easy on console because its range is already similar to console aim range, which is inflexible.  Its not like Wortox where you can't jump over a ledge because you can only aim x distance from yourself.

4 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Tbh I forget about beefalo because playing with them has always seemed like the LAMEST way to counteract character downsides, so good point there. Still though, Wolfgang is way better at bosses which is where most progression lies. Also if you are healpot tanking with Abi you're wasting a ton of resources as you are likely tanking yourself. Abigail really only helps with bee queen, fuel weaver, and dragon fly. (Maybe toadstool, but that strat takes sooo long).

idk - with Wendy, because you get SO MUCH from a beef, and they were made easier to manage, I don't think its lame at all.

Wolfgang may be better at all bosses, but Wendy isn't very far behind.