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WX-78 and seeking moon power


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over in the ominous quote double thread people opened up a really good discussion idea about wx, wagstaff, and the moon

i'll copy the quotes over here:

On 5/25/2021 at 8:19 AM, Cassielu said:

I don't know if that's ominous, but I decided to share it here.

All the characters were attracted to the knowledge of the moon, except for WX-78, which wanted the power of the moon. As it happens, we know someone else who wants the moons power...

 

23 hours ago, Grim the said:

Can you make a thread about this? I'd like to discuss it more, seems like an interesting topic.

 

17 hours ago, fierysage1 said:

Ooh! I fully agree, I find this really interesting. What Cassielu said here actually just gave me a thought:

What if WX is the way they are not just because of their sentience and the funny "haha, robots believe they're superior to humans and wanna take over the world" gimmick, but because Wagstaff actually programmed them to think that way? 

Wagstaff supposedly built WX with the intent of having WX explore the constant, right? Maybe he purposefully programmed WX to perceive organic, "normal" things as inferior and unimportant and to instead seek out anything considered powerful so that Wagstaff himself could then basically swipe said power once WX finds it?

Welp, if Cassielu (or anyone else) does end up making a thread about this, I'll just copy paste what I said here over there for further discussion :wilson_dorky:

and i pose my own questions:
how would wagstaff know when wx has found something?
wx disregards most of the bosses in ds/t as something that can easily be destroyed, so what even is the bar for "something powerful"?
wx really likes bees. intentional or a thought that wx developed themselves?
and how much of wx's thought is their own and how much is programming by wagstaff?
and, i think, my biggest question:
if wagstaff deliberately coded wx to disregard life and plan genocide, what does that say about him?

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21 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

how would wagstaff know when wx has found something?

Maybe Wagstaff put a camera inside WX so he could get an idea of the constant's environment before we went in with a hologram

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Personally I think WX hating everyone is derived from their hatred of Wagstaff. That suggests to me that Wagstaff forced WX into the constant to do work for him but WX was self aware enough not to follow his orders. I personally don't think Wagstaff deliberately made WX evil, he just made them too intelligent. I also think WX will get the next rework after Webber since it appears Klei has something ready for them in terms of lore. 

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WX-78 hating Wagstaff and by extension all living things makes sense, since Wagstaff was probably the first 'fleshling' he met, and the only one he knew for a while, who then did something bad enough for WX-78 to simply say "YOU" when he sees Wagstaff

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11 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

how would wagstaff know when wx has found something?

Well, Wagstaff is able to project himself wherever he feels like in the Constant. Maybe there's some sort of transmission that occurs? Like, I dunno, you know Danganronpa?

(Danganronpa spoilers)

Spoiler

You know how K1-B0 (a robot participant in Danganronpa V3) serves as the eyes for the audience in the killing games and then the audience basically controls what he says and does accordingly?

Anyway, was thinking maybe WX is somehow transmitting whatever they see to Wagstaff, but unintentionally (or unknowingly). I'm pretty sure if WX knew or could switch such a function off, then they gladly would.

19 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

wx disregards most of the bosses in ds/t as something that can easily be destroyed, so what even is the bar for "something powerful"?

I don't know, looking at their quotes for the busts:

Spoiler

 

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It seems the only boss WX seems to find powerful is the lunar one? It could be possible that as soon as WX first learned about the moon, they could have sensed something about it that caused them to affix their full attention to the moon and only the moon.

27 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

wx really likes bees. intentional or a thought that wx developed themselves?
and how much of wx's thought is their own and how much is programming by wagstaff?
and, i think, my biggest question:
if wagstaff deliberately coded wx to disregard life and plan genocide, what does that say about him?

I've gotta think a bit before I can give my input on this one here. Needa learn more about Wagstaff first. :wilsontea:

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2 minutes ago, Grim the said:

Maybe Wagstaff put a camera inside WX so he could get an idea of the constant's environment before we went in with a hologram

 

with PR-76 it shows that it's possible for audio to transmit from the constant to the outside world as well, so wagstaff could've gotten audio feedback as well

also WX mentions in a quote for the binoculars hallowed nights trinket: "MY OPTICS ALREADY POSSES ZOOM FUNCTIONALITY"

1 minute ago, W0l0l0 said:

I personally don't think Wagstaff deliberately made WX evil, he just made them too intelligent.

this is a really nice take as well! but going back to one of my first question, how much of what wx says is their own thought? there's several instances of wx and wagstaff having very similar (basically the same) quotes for things, which sort of implies that wagstaff coded these things into wx

pinecone:
"My favorite portable Fibonacci sequence."
"A PORTABLE FIBONACCI SEQUENCER"

broken aac device:
"Ah. It needs a DR356X001."
"OF COURSE IT'S BROKEN, IT'S MISSING A DR356X001"

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4 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I wonder if the phrase "EMPATHY MODULE NOT RESPONDING" is cannon. It would definitely imply that Wagstaff intended for WX to be good at some point. 

what i find interesting is that in wx's character portait, it's a blueprint instead of them

and on said blueprint, theres a drawing of a heart that's crossed out

WX-78.png.4a0a565e0908a7f869f0cdca0face88b.png

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25 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

pinecone:
"My favorite portable Fibonacci sequence."
"A PORTABLE FIBONACCI SEQUENCER"

broken aac device:
"Ah. It needs a DR356X001."
"OF COURSE IT'S BROKEN, IT'S MISSING A DR356X001"

I believe these parallels are more demonstrating that WX possesses the knowledge of various things that Wagstaff has programmed them to have in their database, or has taught them.

Notice that Wagstaff mentions the pinecone is his favorite Fibonacci sequence, whereas WX simply states that it's a Fibonacci sequence. 

31 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Personally I think WX hating everyone is derived from their hatred of Wagstaff. That suggests to me that Wagstaff forced WX into the constant to do work for him but WX was self aware enough not to follow his orders. I personally don't think Wagstaff deliberately made WX evil, he just made them too intelligent.

28 minutes ago, Grim the said:

WX-78 hating Wagstaff and by extension all living things makes sense, since Wagstaff was probably the first 'fleshling' he met, and the only one he knew for a while, who then did something bad enough for WX-78 to simply say "YOU" when he sees Wagstaff

Also, I actually didn't think of these, they are really good points! That would make a lot of sense, especially if Wagstaff simply made WX too intelligent instead of deliberately evil.

 

11 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I wonder if the phrase "EMPATHY MODULE NOT RESPONDING" is cannon. It would definitely imply that Wagstaff intended for WX to be good at some point. 

Oooh, another good point. I think they are canon, considering that that is WX's default skin, and WX's quotes for the urn (idk what urn, I literally just went to the quotes wiki and ctrl+f'ed "empathy") mentioning an "empathy mode":

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However, as Sky just pointed out while I am typing out this reply, 

5 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

what i find interesting is that in wx's character portait, it's a blueprint instead of them

and on said blueprint, theres a drawing of a heart that's crossed out

WX-78.png.4a0a565e0908a7f869f0cdca0face88b.png

Wagstaff possibly did intend WX to be good at some point, but then eventually eschewed that prospect. Was it too difficult? Would it meddle with whatever plans he had for WX? Did he feel that giving WX the ability to empathize would get in the way of whatever he wanted WX to actually accomplish during their time in the Constant?

 

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4 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

what i find interesting is that in wx's character portait, it's a blueprint instead of them

and on said blueprint, theres a drawing of a heart that's crossed out

WX-78.png.4a0a565e0908a7f869f0cdca0face88b.png

Maybe it's incomplete, like Data from Star Trek. Wasgtaff for whatever reason never got to complete them with an empathy module.

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13 minutes ago, fierysage1 said:

Did he feel that giving WX the ability to empathize would get in the way of whatever he wanted WX to actually accomplish during their time in the Constant?

Consider the things we do in the constant, empathy would ruin WX's prospects of survival.

Example: The moose/goose fight is essentially hammering the egg of incubating moslings, hitting someone's children, then when their mother comes to defend them, you murder their mother infront of her kids and then finish off the children. It's killing an entire family for no reason. If he had empathy, he might not do that.

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14 minutes ago, fierysage1 said:

Did he feel that giving WX the ability to empathize would get in the way of whatever he wanted WX to actually accomplish during their time in the Constant?

More similar to himself.

Wagstaff sure as heck doesn't have sympathy, he's purely a man of knowledge. WX just uses his lack of sympathy in a different way.

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Just now, ShadowDuelist said:

So the other survivors have become monsters already? :rolleyes:

well, they are all already a bit crazy themselves

when wilson built the portal he was literally taping rats together, willow burned down an orphanage with people inside, etc.

and for the characters that didn't do anything like that (example, warly wanted his mom's memory back) their quotes show them to be a lot more passive in nature (though people play how they want)

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Lets not forget that Wx-78 does show empathy but only for those of their own kind.

When inspecting gears they say something like "What have I done" which is remorse imo. They also seek alliance with other non-organics. I also believe they hate Wagstaff... What if Wagstaff betrayed them? Or made them feel betrayed.

Wagstaff made them enter an unknown environment and abandoned them there with no hope for escape.

 

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1 hour ago, SkyistheGround said:

wx really likes bees. intentional or a thought that wx developed themselves?

Not only bees, but also Thunderbirds and Pig workers (or builders?).

I suppose he likes bees and workers because of their industriousness ("A MECHANIC. THE NOBLEST PROFFESION" - one of his exam. quotes), and thunderbirds... well, because they're like a charger for him? idk.

Wagstaff also kinda likes to work, so he may have included some of his traits into WX, but i'm not sure.

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48 minutes ago, SkyistheGround said:

what i find interesting is that in wx's character portait, it's a blueprint instead of them

and on said blueprint, theres a drawing of a heart that's crossed out

Tin Man is that you? Go back to Oz.

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16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Lets not forget that Wx-78 does show empathy but only for those of their own kind.

When inspecting gears they say something like "What have I done" which is remorse imo. They also seek alliance with other non-organics. I also believe they hate Wagstaff... What if Wagstaff betrayed them? Or made them feel betrayed.

Wagstaff made them enter an unknown environment and abandoned them there with no hope for escape.

 

this ties back perfectly into what @W0l0l0 said before, about how WX was made to be too intelligent rather then evil

and following that theory, it'd be super understandable for WX to be bitter about being abandoned, since they have thoughts akin to a human's (and many people do feel bad and bitter when they get abandoned)

amazing point!

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32 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I got a bit scared when I saw a "Hot!" thread that started with WX-78.

No need to fear! We're all civil here! :wilson_laugh:

1 hour ago, SkyistheGround said:

wx really likes bees. intentional or a thought that wx developed themselves?

Anyway, I think this is actually a free thought that WX has, because Wagstaff shows no particular inclination towards bees in his quotes in DS (as far as I know). Although both he and WX mention bees' industriousness upon examining various bee-related things:

Spoiler

 

Wagstaff:

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WX:

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Wagstaff is very matter-of-fact, although intrigued (as he is with most things in the Constant, honestly), whereas WX seems to adore bees because of their efficient way of life as "mindless drones" producing honey. 

1 hour ago, SkyistheGround said:

and how much of wx's thought is their own and how much is programming by wagstaff?

I think the discussion we've had here is leading me to believe that WX's programming goes only as far as their megalomania/focus on the moon, and their knowledge of things that they learned before entering the Constant. Everything else, their learning of various things in the Constant, their penchants and aversions, their seemingly "evil" tendencies all seem to be manifested by their own intellect.

Now comes another question of mine: If WX is really just made to be "too intelligent," then why do they specifically state that they want to be evil?

Quotes:

Spoiler

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A few possibilities I thought of were that maybe WX simply has a warped understanding of the meaning of the word "evil." Maybe they simply think being "evil" is just murdering people and destroying organics? I mean... sure, that would be a conventionally evil thing to do.

Or, WX's bitter attitude towards Wagstaff, and by extension all living beings, abandoning them or betraying them caused them to turn to the dark side A̶n̶a̶k̶i̶n̶ ̶S̶k̶y̶w̶a̶l̶k̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶t̶y̶l̶e̶.

__

Oh, found something interesting:

image.png.770d403ff51ab5978a0a2384afc0dad5.png

WX likes evil things, but they hate water, and thus call it evil.... huh??

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3 minutes ago, fierysage1 said:

Now comes another question of mine: If WX is really just made to be "too intelligent," then why do they specifically state that they want to be evil?

this is purely speculation, but i think it's WX's attitude of wanting to go against what wagstaff wants, or maybe what they think wagstaff wants
most humans are empathetic and do their best to do the right thing, so i'm thinking wx wants to be "evil" to not be human, something wagstaff is

though wagstaff is morally questionable himself, i feel. 
aporkalypse calendar: "Wonderful! I wonder if I could make the world end sooner."
 

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Relevant quotes:
 
"THE MOON MAKES EVERYTHING WORSE, AND THEREFORE BETTER" - WX-78, exam. Moon Rubble


"A MAJOR IMPROVEMENT"- WX-78, exam. Suspicious Moonrock (Hound)
"IT IS BETTER THIS WAY" - WX-78, exam. Suspicious Moonrock (Werepig)

Whether their unconscious thought was influenced by Wagstaff or not, they may love the Moon especially because they consider it evil.


"THAT MOON POWER SHOULD BE MINE!" - WX-78, exam. Lunar Essence Extractor

"IT WHISPERS FORBIDDEN MOON KNOWLEDGE TO ME" - WX-78, exam. Celestial Fissure
"I WILL HELP YOU IF YOU WILL BE QUIET" - WX-78, exam. Celestial Altar Base
"PLEASE STOP TALKING TO ME" - WX-78, exam. Celestial Altar Idol


Interesting though how WX-78 only cares about the moons power (maybe turning things to rocks? Or generally making things worse). In contrast, they don't seem to give a damn about the knowledge, which would be very very uncharacteristic for Wagstaff I think

"DRIPPING WITH DELICIOUS KNOWLEDGE" - WX-87, exam. Blueprint (rare) 
They do seem to like knowledge in general though. But I thought they would go wild for lunar knowledge...


Also, "Amazing! I ran into many difficulties waterproofing my automaton." - Wagstaff, exam. Floaty Boat Knight
I like the singular "automaton". So did he only build one WX-78? And did Wickerbottom help him create them or how is she related?? Assuming the red lines hold any significance at all, ofc

 RWP_229_Conspiracy_Board_Behind_The_Scenes.png.80eafd5d4c4326a68568d9c07f2f4d72.png

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21 hours ago, Tim S. said:

Interesting though how WX-78 only cares about the moons power (maybe turning things to rocks? Or generally making things worse). In contrast, they don't seem to give a damn about the knowledge, which would be very very uncharacteristic for Wagstaff I think

wx has quotes about liking rocks because they're inorganic (though moon rocks are better, according to them), and that might link more to festering hatred of wagstaff and life, but i'd like to believe the power to turn things into rocks (the transformations in general, maybe) is what wagstaff is after (assuming wx was indeed created to find power) 

back to speculation, maybe wagstaff wants to do the research himself? theoretically, he couldve gotten wx to do every bit of studying of the constant for him, but he still entered the constant and gets quite excited seeing everything. in eye of the storm, he lets the players do all the hard work before taking the reward and i think that's what's happening to wx as well-- getting them to find and secure the powet before wagstaff can take it and discover tge knowledge himself

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