Serious analysis about the usefulness of Wes

[Remps]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Console players can't have mods. Just because you don't want the game to be hard you think no one should have the option? There's 16 non-challenge character and just 1 single challenge character. If you don't want a challenge just play the other 94% of the roster.

better opinion is give players advanced options like QoL updates which you can set options for challange, its better than makes a survivor less playable

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Remps said:

better opinion is give players advanced options like QoL updates which you can set options for challange, its better than makes a survivor less playable

it is playable and a challenge character

you can play wes with all dangers set off if you really want to play him

not all the difficulty ajustment should come from world settings, for that we have characters with upsides and downsides

[Cheggf]

39 minutes ago, Remps said:

better opinion is give players advanced options like QoL updates which you can set options for challange, its better than makes a survivor less playable

What kind of sense does that make? Wes is completely playable, I have no idea what you're talking about. What does  "advanced options like QoL updates which you can set options for challange" even mean? Do you mean like world settings? Because those already exist and they already don't matter because that affects the difficulty for everyone.

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Console players can't have mods. Just because you don't want the game to be hard you think no one should have the option? There's 16 non-challenge character and just 1 single challenge character. If you don't want a challenge just play the other 94% of the roster.

This is false- Challenge is perceived as what YOU the Player find challenging... and not necessarily the character themselves.

For example: I sometimes die as Wigfrid more often then I die as Wes. Reason? Wigfrid only eats meat.. ONLY MEAT.. you will survive as her if you have a meat source around in the area but if not.. your SoL..

Wes on the other hand.. can have a full stomach again with as little as 4 berries, he can eat seeds, and butterflies.. 
 

“Challenge” depends entirely upon what you the PLAYER plan to do in the game.

if you want to go sailing as Wurt you do so knowing you won’t have many veggies sources out at sea.

If you want to fight bosses as Wes, you do so knowing one kiting mistake & your as good as dead.

But this is 2021.. and the character you select to play as should no longer be the single defining factor of how easy or how hard your gameplay is going to be.

The last QoL update gave us options for “More” Sanity creatures or “None”

It gave the option to have MORE Flowers Spawn in the world but at the same time.. the option to disable the Easy Mode Butterflies that spawn from them.

Butterflies in DST are literal life savers: They recover both hunger.. and health lost, so it’s nice to have an option for more flowers and less or no butterflies.

the MOBILE version of Dont Starve even lets you choose to start the world with more overall health than average, default, or less overall health I can choose if I can starve to death when hunger is depleted.

Aka.. I can play as Wendy with a reduced overall health core or Wes with hunger being a Non-Issue.

Now Lets play the “What if” game shall we?

What if Klei’s next QoL update aims to give us even MORE control over our worlds? What if I can choose things like more Max health, less Max health, how fast hunger and sanity drain or don’t drain.. 

Would Wes STILL be considered the challenge character if all players can have 200% total health core & depleted hunger bar does not start starvation status?

Would Wendy STILL NOT be a challenge character when she has 25% total health Max, Sanity Monsters are set to “More” and Sanity drain is faster than on default settings?

Those are just “What if Scenarios..”

But lets use already existing options you CAN toggle as examples- 

Does Wes become less of a challenge character if I disable lightning and hound waves? Does he become Impossible to play at all if I increase these to “More”?

The TL:DR- Klei’s focus should be less on trying to create “Challenging Characters” and more on giving us the players more options OUTSIDE of who we pick to play as to “Challenge Ourselves”

Maybe I might want to play as Wendy but with reduced health, inability to heal by any other methods except dedicated healing tab items, Maybe I want to toggle butterflies off completely because they’re “EZ Mode” 

[Well-met]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The TL:DR- Klei’s focus should be less on trying to create “Challenging Characters” and more on giving us the players more options OUTSIDE of who we pick to play as to “Challenge Ourselves”

why not both lol

[RoughCactus69]

23 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Weeber is totally a playable character that is strong alone and useful with team mates. Meanwhile wes was a polemic character since some people though that it was unfair that he eat more and didnt bring anything to the team (when it is all about players fault) so they added teamwork perks, removed leecher ones like extra hunger and needing to waste more resources to work and fight meanwhile they did him more challenging. All of this to keep the joke they started the 1st april of the last year.

I see him in more need than a useful character like webber which people only want his rework because other characters get 3848281 perks

I even wish they refresh maxwell before for the same reason as they did the wes refresh. His workers might disturb other players since they go on automatic

Sincerely,

Arubaro 

Wes is meant for a challenge character. He isn't meant to benefit his team. His is a challenge for the sake of being a challenge. I think Webber in my opinion is borderline pointless. All of his traits can be done by other characters EXCEPT the spider follower one, which is pointless.

 

Not saying he should've never gotten an update, because it is welcome. I just think other characters needed it more.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, RoughCactus69 said:

Wes is meant for a challenge character. He isn't meant to benefit his team. His is a challenge for the sake of being a challenge. I think Webber in my opinion is borderline pointless. All of his traits can be done by other characters EXCEPT the spider follower one, which is pointless.

 

Not saying he should've never gotten an update, because it is welcome. I just think other characters needed it more.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

That is just your opinion

Also i dont see the problem of character sharing the same works if it is done in a different way. Also the spider perk is useful against many mobs and bosses

And i dont see why wes shouldnt have teamwork perks in a multiplayer game. It has 0 sense. Or why he cant be fun instead of a weak wilson just because you dont like weeber because other op characters exists

 

Sincerely,

Arubaro

[Beehawk]

1 hour ago, RoughCactus69 said:

Wes is meant for a challenge character. He isn't meant to benefit his team. His is a challenge for the sake of being a challenge. I think Webber in my opinion is borderline pointless. All of his traits can be done by other characters EXCEPT the spider follower one, which is pointless.

 

Not saying he should've never gotten an update, because it is welcome. I just think other characters needed it more.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

Why isn't he meant to benefit his team? You couldn't even say this in singleplayer DS, but in DST particularly, being able to benefit your team actually matters. A character being a challenge to play and being able to benefit their team aren't two mutually exclusive things. It's silly to say that a character in a team game shouldn't be able to be helpful to his team like all other characters simply because they should be a "challenge". That's not being a challenge, that's just being useless and annoying.

Also, Wes was literally a worse Wilson at the time. Wilson doesn't even have a particular power other than his beard, but that beard provided insulation, and he has solid stats. Compare that to Wes, who had a useless power that did nothing, worse stats, dealt less damage, and had increased hunger drain. Not to mention the fact that he was the least played survivor in DST by far, if you look at the graph someone posted earlier in the thread. He was the survivor that needed attention the most. Webber can at least do things like eat monster meat without consequences and befriend spiders.

[Mike23Ua]

Actually I find that if my not skilled friend angers a nest of spiders and gets in over their head and can’t fight them.. then being able to distract them by befriending them as Webber is a Super super useful perk to have.

But since this thread is about Wes I want to touch more on the idea of a “Flight Balloon” I want something that lasts a few seconds TOPS... long enough to float over a gap of water or recover a boat that’s barely floated out of reach-

Spoiler

I DO NOT WANT him zooming around the map with the same speed and duration as Goose Form Woodie.... this IS NOT a suggestion for Zipping around the map as a reskinned version of Goose, this short hovering at its best..

6 seconds maybe a little more.. only useful for short trips across gaps of land

Or if elevated foundations get added to the game floating up to that elevated land.

Wes should be a challenge character & still be useful.

[Cheggf]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wes should be a challenge character & still be useful.

Wes already is useful, especially when you have less than stellar teammates and especially when you compare him to Wilson who does literally nothing to help others and his only perk is taking a little longer to freeze to death in winter.

Items he use last between 1x and 1.33x as long as they would on a normal character which isn't amazing but it's certainly helpful. He can make spalloons which offer an average of 20% movement speed for their 2 minute duration, and he can give them to anyone. He can make a vest & hat which don't do much. But most interestingly out of all his options are what I underestimated the most, his party balloons.

With the party balloons Wes has ultimate control over his sanity, at the cost of time. He can

• Give infinite sanity to other players and potentially himself for free (other than time) which can be very helpful with bad teammates.
• Convert excess sanity (e.g. from wearing a tam o' shanter or prototyping) into an item form, every time I've played recently I've ended up with hundreds if not thousands of sanity lying around the base and other various areas.
• Do things that lower sanity for a minor time penalty instead of sanity penalty (e.g. make all his sanity into balloons, eat infinity bluecaps, then spend 10-50 seconds getting it back).
• Not only farm nightmare fuel whenever and wherever he wants for no cost, but farm sanity while doing it. With other nmf farmers they're only getting nmf from killing the shadows since they just delete their sanity again after killing them. But with Wes he converts the 15 sanity from horrors and 30 sanity from terrorbeaks into balloon form, able to end his nmf farming at max sanity for only the cost of time standing in the balloons, and have many extra balloons lying around for him or anyone else to use whenever they want.

Frankly your suggestion for a balloon which lets you cross small gaps would not do anything to his viability. Depending on world generation you would at best maybe get to use it once or twice during your early exploration to save a few seconds, but that's it and then it's completely useless. Anything you want to cross multiple times can easily be bridged for only a few boards.

If he were to get any extra balloons maybe he could get a bundle of party balloons which is just -15 sanity for a single triple party balloon item in an effort to prevent server lag from all the balloons he litters around.

[Beehawk]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

-snip-

Not necessarily. If Wes had a balloon that let him cross gaps or the Speed Balloon had that feature, he'd be really nice for ruins exploration.

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, Beehawk said:

Not necessarily. If Wes had a balloon that let him cross gaps or the Speed Balloon had that feature, he'd be really nice for ruins exploration.

I think those holes are supposed to represent walls because players complained when they were actually walls.

[Beehawk]

Just now, Cheggf said:

I think those holes are supposed to represent walls because players complained when they were actually walls.

So?

[Cheggf]

2 minutes ago, Beehawk said:

So?

So it wouldn't make sense for someone to start noclipping into walls because he's holding a balloon?

[Beehawk]

Just now, Cheggf said:

So it wouldn't make sense for someone to start noclipping into walls because he's holding a balloon?

I doubt it'd be like noclipping into a wall. It'd be more like being able to traverse the ocean, back when it was just a sea of waves and not something you could interact with. Besides, I don't think you'd be able to get into areas you're not supposed to or anything similar -- rather, it'd just be something that'd make it easier. It'd certainly be a unique and handy boon that would fit Wes.

[wigfrids hat]

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I think those holes are supposed to represent walls because players complained when they were actually walls.

the gaps have water properties. you can see it when you manage to get an item knocked out of bounds

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, gaymime said:

the gaps have water properties. you can see it when you manage to get an item knocked out of bounds

The caves had walls but were removed because being incovenient

That they made it like the surface is another story

[Mike23Ua]

Can Goose Woodie or Dead Player ghosts float across any gaps down in caves content? I believe (unless it’s been patched and changed since I last checked) They can not cross these cave caps either..

And it’s been so long since I’ve played Wortox I don’t remember if even he can telepoof his way across either.

So it would be Silly for Wes to have the option when Goose, Wortox & Dead Ghosts Dont..

All I wanted was a very situational “Hovering Balloon” which lets Wes float a few tiles away before touching back down. This Balloon can also be given to other players.

How it works: Like Speedy Balloon it constantly looses durability once crafted, If it’s in your inventory you won’t float, but it’s durability still drops- When you equip it you will float.. but it’s durability is so short that basically you’d have to be standing near the Wes player as they craft the Balloons to get full use out of them.

The meme spoiler images below shows the type of situations he should be able to use the hover balloon in.

Spoiler

Mostly Useless.. & Entirely Situational: Just like the rest of his refresh.. but STILL better than nothing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And it’s been so long since I’ve played Wortox I don’t remember if even he can telepoof his way across either.

He can and also every player can with a lazy explorer

[Beehawk]

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Can Goose Woodie or Dead Player ghosts float across any gaps down in caves content? I believe (unless it’s been patched and changed since I last checked) They can not cross these cave caps either..

And it’s been so long since I’ve played Wortox I don’t remember if even he can telepoof his way across either.

So it would be Silly for Wes to have the option when Goose, Wortox & Dead Ghosts Dont..

All I wanted was a very situational “Hovering Balloon” which lets Wes float a few tiles away before touching back down. This Balloon can also be given to other players.

How it works: Like Speedy Balloon it constantly looses durability once crafted, If it’s in your inventory you won’t float, but it’s durability still drops- When you equip it you will float.. but it’s durability is so short that basically you’d have to be standing near the Wes player as they craft the Balloons to get full use out of them.

The meme spoiler images below shows the type of situations he should be able to use the hover balloon in.

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Mostly Useless.. & Entirely Situational: Just like the rest of his refresh.. but STILL better than nothing.

If you don't know if Wortox can teleport across gaps, why use it as a point against Wes being able to cross gaps? For what it's worth, it works the same as a Lazy Explorer. So I'd assume that he can indeed teleport across gaps.

Also I don't see the point of making a balloon like that mostly useless and entirely situational. Why intentionally gimp it when it's not going to be overpowered in the first place? If Wes could cross gaps with his speedy balloon, it'd both make sense, be very unique of a character benefit, and also be useful for caves exploration. Goose Woodie can't cross those gaps because they're not actual water. Dead ghosts are probably able to unless they're at the edge of the world as well.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, Beehawk said:

Also I don't see the point of making a balloon like that mostly useless and entirely situational

It doesnt need to be an aditional balloon. It could be another perk for the speedy balloon since it "makes you lighter" because it floats for being an helium balloon

[Beehawk]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

It doesnt need to be an aditional balloon. It could be another perk for the speedy balloon since it "makes you lighter" because it floats for being an helium balloon

That would make more sense.

[HowlVoid]

I dont think klei is going to add an ability to traverse gaps to the speedy balloon. To me this rework just fit into their schedule, but I could be proven wrong if the next content drop turns out to me underwhelming. To traverse gaps:

1. They would need unique animations for every character to hover. 

2. An animation for every character's balloon to pop.

3. An animation for falling in water, on the ground and into the caves abyss.

I'm certain they don't want to invest a lot of time on Wes. We should start with small changes.

[Mysterious box]

On 4/11/2021 at 4:11 PM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is certainly way more fun now but imo is sad to see how little tools they added when, basically, they didnt even needed to think the idea. Was suggested many times so they could though more balloon tools that will really help others like the sanity ones (really good for a multiplayer enviroment)

it only adds 4 balloons: 1 is situational (the jacket which is good but so situational), the speedy balloon (great but useless after winter unless you aren in a pub with many players), the hat which is fine but only useful in spring

they added the pantomime skins instead of adding it as a perk (maybe was hard to implement in a correct way), they discarted the armor and sword balloon showed in the stream

great rework but it could be much funnier

just my 2cents

Wes has perks that make him the game's ideal party support/scout his perks come together in a way that benefits people who travel as a group his speedy balloon doubles as a way to quickly scout ahead and as a free flare. His party balloons allow him to do spot sanity management on the go for his group while traveling. Also while not super common but I've atleast seen it a fair amount of times his balloons can taunt hordes to make them easier to deal with. His role in my mind is cemented as a active party support a different flavor of wortox if you will.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

42 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Also while not super common but I've atleast seen it a fair amount of times his balloons can taunt hordes to make them easier to deal with

I always liked to use this to bait (and the stunlock is useful if timed well) hounds even playing alone. Was more useful than people believe 

The party balloon is true that is a perfect perk. Very usefull

Life jacket is niche but good and the hat is also useful to prevent lighting damage in spring or fighting goats 

Is just that i wanted more variety. Maybe my fault for being hyped for this rework