Resin Min-Maxing

[Hokaeru]

Hey everyone !
 

Although the numbers are subject to change, I am curious about what are your plans for the resin planet.
I think I will not bother bringing food from other planets, but rather try to make a "farm planet". I will then use the tungsten volcano heat to boil resin to isoresin (and get the tungsten). Or maybe have a round trip rocket that brings food and brings resin back...
I think food quality has no bonus for resin, but when you cook, it usually adds more kcal. 
I was wondering what was a good way to get the most out of this ?Wild plants with autosweepers ? Perhaps critters : shove voles, or maybe hatches but there is no magma volcano). 

I would be glad to hear your thoughts : raw food vs cooked ? which type ?

 

[ghkbrew]

So, because of the enormous amounts of calories needed. The plan is to optimize for 1) densest calories/tile 2) minimal dupe labor.

The best plan I've come up with so far is pacu omelets. Using either a wild arbor tree  with drowning branches, or a wild nosh beans for seed production.  They have similar production rates when you factor in the space needed, but arbor start producing immediately vs waiting 84 cycles for nosh beans.

The fish can be kept in ponds made from layered liquids to drastically decrease the water needed.

The eggs can be cracked by leaving them in storage bins. Then cooked to omelets by heating manually. No dupe labor necessary.

A happy pacu will lay 1 egg every 1.67 cycles. Pacu eggs make 2x 2800kcal omelets. For 3,360 kcal / cycle/ pacu. Each pacu need 8 tiles of liquid plus ~ 4 tiles for a third of an arbor tree to feed it. 3360 / 12 = 280kcal / tile / cycle

[0xFADE]

Late game food production has usually ended up being free range ranching for me.  Pacu don't need to eat anything and they will lay an egg so they continue.  Hatches will also lay an egg before they die so you don't need to feed them either but you do need to groom them.  Hatches are more lossy because if they lay a normal hatch egg you have to get rid of it because those hatches eat meat.  Sometimes automation isn't fast enough to pick up the meat.

Same sort of thing with dense pufts.  They are very easy to ranch.  They turn oxygen in to food.  You end up with a lot of extra eggs which you ship off in to a pool of liquid and they die on birth.  Same deal with excess slicksters but I don't do near as many of those with no co2 from asteroids to harvest.  Meat all the way, no omelettes.

[ghkbrew]

 

52 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Pacu don't need to eat anything and they will lay an egg so they continue.

 

52 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Meat all the way, no omelettes.

In theory there's no limit to how many starvation ranched pacu you can keep (though once you get a few hundred maintaining temperatures really starts to be an issue). But practically, if you have too many it starts to lag the the game horribly.  Since pacu eat (renewable) seeds in the DLC I think it makes more sense to feed them if you want mass calorie production.  Each starving pacu produces 2000kcal of bbq every ~30 cycles = ~66.67 kcal per cycle.  A fed pacu produces an egg every 1.5 cycles.  Each egg makes 2 omelettes so 5600kcal (vs 2000kcal you would get from bbq for that egg) = ~3733.33 kcal per cycle.  So a fed pacu produces 56x as many calories as starvation ranched ones.

I'm in the middle of stress testing a design for 29 fed pacu

Spoiler

You'd need ~1600 starvation ranched pacu to get an equivalent calorie output.

[0xFADE]

You can have all your pacu in a 1x1 tile of liquid.  It cuts down on the lag A LOT since they don't do any pathing.

[ghkbrew]

8 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

You can have all your pacu in a 1x1 tile of liquid.  It cuts down on the lag A LOT since they don't do any pathing.

Of course, but there is still some lag from having that many critters.  And you can keep fed pacu in a 1 tile pond too (like in my build).  The real question is does the machinery needed to feed 1 pacu cause less than 56x the computation needed to simulate one starving pacu (in a 1x1 pond).  I don't think it's clear which way is cheaper.  I wonder how I could test that?

[Hokaeru]

@ghkbrew would you mind explaining your build please ? Are you using the water layer as space counted by the pacus ? 
Are they on the right ? 
I haven't messed around with pacu's too much, sorry if this is a dumb question.

[ghkbrew]

 

8 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

Are you using the water layer as space counted by the pacus ? 

yeah.  They are in a 58 x 4 pond of layered liquids.  From bottom to top crude oil, petroleum, salt water, water.  The reason for the layers is that this way each tile can have tiny amounts of liquid in it and still make a large pond for the pacu.  I have 1kg/tile for crude oil, petroleum and water, but you could go much lower than that.  The salt water actually needs slightly higher to prevent pdirt from off-gassing and breaking the layering.  I have it at 2kg/tile.  290kg of liquid total vs the 230tons of water you need for the same sized pool of pure water.

17 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

Are they on the right ? 

The pacu live in 1 tile of salt water directly under the feeder.  They won't swim up into the water because too low volume for them. Pacu are a little strange because whether they're overcrowded depends on the size of the pool they're in, not the room like most critters.  And that "pool size" calculation crosses mesh tiles and pneumatic doors. So I can have 29 happy pacu in my pool (59 x 4 / 8) even though they're in a room that's only 14 tiles.

 

Other parts of the build:

Wild arbor trees with stacked liquids covering their branches.  The trees have 4 of 5 branches covered in liquid.  This causes the branches to drown and break immediately/repeated.  Each time a new branch grows there's a chance for the tree to spawn a new seed for the pips to rummage through them and find.  Each tree is producing a little over 1 seed/cycle this way.  I'm leaving 1 branch uncovered on each to let the pips eat.  That way you can just leave a bunch of tame, ungroomed pips in the room to extract the seeds.

There is a small incubation room to the left of the feeder, that automation keeps 6 eggs in that room which is enough to maintain a population of 30 pacu (25 cycle life / 5 cycle incubation = 5 pacu per egg).  The door between the incubation room and the pool room only opens if there are fewer than 29 pacu.  It would rarely happen but adding a single extra pacu will make all of them overcrowded and cause reproduction rates to go down 10-fold.

eggs above the 6 in the incubation room are shipped to an automated omelette cooker (which wasn't implemented yet in the first picture):

Spoiler

The eggs stay in the receptacles (in a vacuum)  for 10 cycles until they break and drop raw egg into the 200C petroleum. When the raw egg gets hot enough (80C IIRC) they turn in to omelettes and are shipped out of the room.

[Timotheeee1]

one easy setup is to spam grubfruits using the 2 sulfur geysers. for every 19.2 tons of sulfur you get one insulated pipe.

[RomainL]

11 hours ago, Timotheeee1 said:

one easy setup is to spam grubfruits using the 2 sulfur geysers. for every 19.2 tons of sulfur you get one insulated pipe.

19.2 tons of sulfur for one insulated pipe? 

Are you certain of these numbers? That is quite a lot... I know this is late game stuff but so much effort seems huge. 

[ghkbrew]

7 hours ago, RomainL said:

Are you certain of these numbers?

• Grubfruit yields 250kcal per day for 10kg of sulfur.
• In the current build you get (food calories / 2) grams of resin when you feed the tree. 
• Resins boils to 25% isoresin. 
• It takes 15kg of isoresin to make 100kg of insulation.
• an insulated pipe is 400kg.

So for one pipe you need 400kg insulation * (15kg isoresin / 100kg insulation) * (100kg resin / 25kg isoresin) * (2000kcal / 1kg resin) * (10kg sulfur / 250kcal) = 19200 kg sulfur

[RageLeague]

480000kcal for 400kg insulation for insulated pipe? That's really expensive.

[Sasza22]

It really looks like they want to keep it expensive like it originally was. Good news is that you might be able to get it passively throughout the game by dumping food overproduction into the tree. If it only was on the starting planetoid.

[sakura_sk]

2 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

Grubfruit yields 250kcal per day for 10kg of sulfur.

*yields 200kcal per cycle of spindly grupfruit or 250kcal grubruit if it is tended once by a divergent or ~2000kcal of grubfruit if it is in a stable of grugrubs or (don't know how much...) even more if it is in a proper farm with farmer's touch.

Although I haven't actually played like that to see it in action... (there wasn't any reason to have this much excess calories)

Edit: Calculating spamming plants to mass-produce isoresin, waterweed seems the best

Spoiler

 

*Comparing wild vs domestic growth of every kcal-producing plant (no dupe cooking involved) to how much grams of isoresin would be after processing resin,

[-] without critters/farm, [gr] taking into account grubgrub rub's 50% growth (or farmer's touch), [sw] sweetle tending

 

[babba]

1 hour ago, RageLeague said:

480000kcal for 400kg insulation for insulated pipe? That's really expensive.

Laying pipes is the greatest in the game...Next to BIG rockets !

 

[Wolper]

18 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

*yields 200kcal per cycle of spindly grupfruit or 250kcal grubruit if it is tended once by a divergent or ~2000kcal of grubfruit if it is in a stable of grugrubs or (don't know how much...) even more if it is in a proper farm with farmer's touch.

Although I haven't actually played like that to see it in action... (there wasn't any reason to have this much excess calories)

Edit: Calculating spamming plants to mass-produce isoresin, waterweed seems the best

  Hide contents

 

*Comparing wild vs domestic growth of every kcal-producing plant (no dupe cooking involved) to how much grams of isoresin would be after processing resin,

[-] without critters/farm, [gr] taking into account grubgrub rub's 50% growth (or farmer's touch), [sw] sweetle tending

 

nice table, thank you! I think doing few sweetle ranches with grupfruit to test the sulphur consumption.

Also I want to point that spindly grupfruit cannot be tended because it will transform into normal fruit.

[Yunru]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:28 AM, RomainL said:

I know this is late game stuff but so much effort seems huge. 

Effort? There's really not much effort involved, just time. 

Another fun automated-and-forget puzzles. 

[babba]

People shall do whatever they like in the game and play how to prefer and want to Need a strong coffee, so that I can remove the matchsticks holding up my eye lids. One dupe shall be elected as guru, to have many followers. Beware of Cycle 666, the end of all days.

Build more monuments for a happier own created ONi world

La coffi rah rah, di u mei dai. Coffera di madali tucame tucu tucu. Oni Oni, chukala ! Rah rah.

[sakura_sk]

3 hours ago, Wolper said:

Also I want to point that spindly grupfruit cannot be tended because it will transform into normal fruit.

Yeah... Oops...   (In order to make the "small" table I had a massive one at first and completely forgot about grupfruit...)

Spindly grupfruit doesn't have a "tended by critter" bonus, only the farmer's touch bonus (I think it is +50% for 1 cycle like grubgurb's rub) so just disregard the column of [sw] for spindly grupfruit. I haven't seen what happens when you put grubgrubs in a greenhouse though. Does it stack both bonuses? Because if it does... This is the way~

Also critters! Pacu are the best isoresin makers

Spoiler

*critters left to die of old age, no stables/taming involved

 

[Hokaeru]

As far as I can tell, you can stack the farmer's touch and Grubgrub rub. Not sure if additive or multiplicative in practice though. 
As far as waterweed is concerned, perhaps it will be even greater with microwaved lettuce.
Yeah pacus seem to be great, but you have to find a way to supply seeds steadily.
@ghkbrew please tell us when your stress testing is done

 

[ghkbrew]

17 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

@ghkbrew please tell us when your stress testing is done

Ha, well I mostly finished yesterday. 

At steady state I was getting about 66,000kcal of omlettes per cycle.

That's significantly lower than my initial estimate (29pacu * (1egg/1.5cycle) * (5600kcal/egg) = 108266.7kcal/cycle).  There were of course factors I hadn't included.  The biggest ones being that the pacu are babies for 5 of 25 cycles and that 1 of 13 eggs per life go to replacing the breeders.  So a more accurate estimate is: 29 pacu * (20/25) * (12/13) * (1egg/1.5cycle) * (5600kcal/egg) = 79950.77kcal/cycle. 

So I am getting about 83% of the theoretical yield. 

I attribute most of that efficiency loss to 1) the time spent waiting for dead pacu to be replaced and 2) the brief period that the pacu are overcrowded each time an egg is laid (~15 times per cycle). The overcrowding could be improved with multiple smaller ponds, but I think that would increase the time spent waiting for pacu replacement.  Also this testing was at 10x super-speed.  Both of those factors  should be improved at standard speeds.

Still I'm pretty happy with the results.  For comparison you would need about 660 wild water weed  for an equivalent calorie output.   Or 66000 / (1000kcal / 30cycle / pacu) = 1980 starvation ranched pacu.  And that's just from one instance of the build.  I plan to fit 4 or 5 of them on the resin tree planet.

 

[Hokaeru]

Great results and analysis. I think even with the efficiency loss of 17% it is calory heavy ! Hard to setup, but then you can have all the isoresin to play with.

Quote

I plan to fit 4 or 5 of them on the resin tree planet. 

Don't forget a place where you boil all your resin !

[mathmanican]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, ghkbrew said:

When the raw egg gets hot enough (80C IIRC) they turn in to omelettes

71.1 c.