Theorycrafting on sutainability

[Hokaeru]

Hello everyone,
Team Klei has mentionned their first main focus is setting endgame goals and have various ways of sustainability. They have to overcome the challenge that now you cannot "spawn" various resources with rockets, it has to be specified ingame how they are renewable. 
Everyone sets their own goals in this game, and a good one for me is to have a team of 8 dupes, 1 living on each asteroid with a different sustainable way (not in a closed system, I am okay with geysers and such). I thought it would be nice to share it with you and hear your thoughts.
It would be very endgame, so infrastructure and power are unlimited. I am not looking at the solutions in polluted oxygen or having a dupe make messes, I would like them to have comfort. There are three main things to consider, oxygen, toilets, and food.
I have come up with these ways, but I know some of them are not possible : 

Oxygen :
We have 6 ways of producing oxygen that I am aware of :  
1- Electrolyzer. Needs water that can come from a geyser or wild arbor trees refinement.
2- Oxygen diffuser. At the moment algae is hard to make renewable. Perhaps with a Polluted oxygen vent feeding pufts.
3- Rust deoxidizer. I love this building, but rust not renewable at all. you could make salt out of Dasha Saltvines but that's it. 
4- Oxyferns. You cannot increase the number of seeds at the moment (apart from care packages I think). You can plant them wild but need alot, or feed them water and dirt.
5- Sublimation station + deodorizer. Would need a filtration medium and polluted dirt. Perhaps with outhouses, pacus fed on crops...
6- Various offgasing of Pwater or slime.
7- ... Nuclear Fusion of super hot oxygen ?! Just kidding.

Food : 
Here it is pretty much endless. But here is one that I like :
- Volcano to feed hatches with cold magma.

Toilets : 
- Water based. Probably needs a filtering system. You would need to boil so you don't have to bring sand. I have considered hydrocacti, but they do not seem finished at the moment. 
- Dirt based, probably wild arbor trees ?
- You could have extremely low temperatures and have messes freeze instantly but I would prefer not to.

What would you dream of ?  
Please share your thoughts ! 

[babba]

7 hours ago, Hokaeru said:

Everyone sets their own goals in this game, and a good one for me is to have a team of 8 dupes, 1 living on each asteroid with a different sustainable way (not in a closed system, I am okay with geysers and such). I thought it would be nice to share it with you and hear your thoughts.

Great thread, thank you for posting. I know you are probably looking for a different response, but I will take this chance now to explain my view or problem:

Mhhh mhhhh. Mhhhh.

This is hard now. I do not know how many base game players are fans of your ideal world dupe asteroid distribution goal. 10% 50% 80% ?

I`m am not sure how many base game players are active in the forum and what we, as forum posters, here represent for the entire player base.

I have played the DLC and I know a lot of people will be fine with your ideal way of playing, as I also have the experience how the DLC plays - It is designed in the way that it encourages your described few-dupes-per-asteroid playstyle and is the encouraged DLC playstyle in general. What I`m try to say here is... I don`t know if Klei will give us a big map as starter world option or not.  This is a very big point for some?many? base game players, as not everyone wants to always distribute a certain (low?) amount of dupes across asteroids and/or have a small starter map ( as currently in the DLC ).

Everybody plays different and everybody has the right to do so.

My feedback is: My dupe sustainability, my dupe ( amount ) playstyle and myself ( as giant big ONi fan ), the decision to stop or continue playing the game with the final DLC, could stand or fall with the decision of having a big map starter world or not as world generation creation option.

With a big starter map in the DLC I will have 20-200 dupes in a possible big DLC starter map and I know I will then webb and interconnect the described @Hokaeru playstyle in to my possible big DLC starter map.

Also I ( others?) need lots of various resources in the DLC starter map spawned, especially fluids and metals = Need lots of Worldgen options for a big DLC starter map please Klei !

I can really not tell how many base game players I represent by stating this. Don`t get me wrong, in general I find Klei`s game content great, but I kindly hereby appeal to Klei to give us the world generation option to have the initial starter asteroid in the size of the current base game. Everything else of the great DLC content then will be a superb addition and upgrade for the game.

@Ipsquiggle

[zach123b]

my favorite theory is the ethanol production line with grubgrubs and pufts added in

grubgrubs make an arbor tree go from 333kg/cycle lumber to 500kg/cycle.  pufts take the polluted dirt > sublimation station > po2/puft > slime > algae/ph2o.  you make a lot of co2 but slicksters are inefficient at only converting 20kg co2 a cycle and end produce 3.75kg ph2o a cycle per slickster.  although now that we have super coolant in survival we can make a small sour gas boiler that would accommodate up to 60 slicksters

doing some theorizing and math, you could have 3 arbor trees, 2 grubgrubs, 6 pufts (plus 2 princes), and 24 molten slickster with a bunch of infrastructure and a mini sour gas boiler (1kg/s) to make enough o2 for 6.95 dupes.  this is assuming the trees are perfectly harvested so it'll be a little lower due to efficiency.  i'd boil the polluted water instead of filtering it to not require filtration.  for extra food if the slicksters aren't enough, i'd use the sulfur from the mini gas boiler to feed sweetles which feeds grubgrubs, add in a few disabled hydroponic food plots with grubfruit for increased grubgrub chance without paying any additional sulfur

but if that doesn't suit you, we now get about 5-11kg/s water in geysers if you want to set up the rockets for that.  and there's also the water from processing oil/petrol.  (you can filter polluted oxygen into good oxygen by freezing it without sand btw)

food is much easier as we can starvation ranch or have wild farms.  if that's not your fancy, use the sulfur from the sulfur geysers for grubfruit/divergents or setup an insane pacu farm with nosh beans.  you could run a few hundred slicksters off the co2 from the oil process too. 

[LongTimeNoZ]

Quote

 

I have been using Ethanol and wild Arbor Trees to secure extra pH2O to feed my electrolyzers in my non-starting asteroid I've settled. My favorite use of the polluted dirt so far has been to sustain a breeding population of Pokeshells. This gives molts for sustainable lime production as well as sand for filtration. My setup (stolen from Francis John, full disclosure) has 3 ethanol distillers to one Petroleum Generator. The distillers keep the generator running at 75% uptime, averaging 562.5 g/s of polluted water. My ranch of 5 pokeshell breeders can consume about 1,167 g/s of polluted dirt but I'm only producing 1000 g/s, so they go a tiny bit hungry from time to time. They convert that at 50% efficiency into 500 g/s sand, which is plenty to feed a water sieve using 1000 g/s sand but only running less than 12% uptime for an average of 120 g/s. So, add some pokeshells into your ethanol loop and you get extra sand out as well, that is, if you're not using the polluted dirt otherwise (I moved to wild farming). Obviously you could boil your polluted water instead, but this keeps it nice and cool so I can passively cool the oxygen coming from my SPOM by radiating the incoming water around the oxygen section.

[Gurgel]

What I find problematic is that the only sustainable Oxygen in the absence of water geysers currently is the Oxyfern.

As to toilets, you can always just go "no toilets", although that requires a bit of a special base design.

[Dupe_Noir]

I have been thinking of new setup for full sustainability lately and its mostly based on new hydrocactus plant.

 

1) Food : ranch dreckos with balm lily as food. Free meat -> barbeque without needing any other resource as input.

2) Oxygen : Ranch hydrocactus. Hydrocactus needs 65kg polluted water and 5kg sand per cycle and 8.33g of oxygen per second. After 10 cycles it can be harvested for 350kg of clean water. Now if you were to apply grubgrub rub and farmers touch for 150% growth boost you could harvest cactus after only 4 cycles. That means you trade 4x65 = 260kg of polluted water for 350kg of water which is 90kg water gain. When put trough electrolyzer that's about 80kg of oxygen. Since dupes use 60kg of oxygen/cycle you would need 3 hydrocactus per duplicant.

Now for the input resources:

Sulfur : you need these to keep grubgrubs alive. You can get it from sour gas boiler. You will need to commit some of your water to get oil for sour gas boiler.

Fertilizer : for boosting growth. You can get it from Fertilizer Synthesizer. For Fertilizer Synthesizer input you need:

Dirt : can get it from ranching pips with arbor trees

Phosphorite : get it from drecko farm which also used for food.

pH2O : You can use lumber from pip farm to burn in Wood Burner to get CO2 and then use CO2 on with Carbon Skimmer to turn some of your water to polluted water. You would need to commit some of your water to this demand.

Sand : you can get it from Pokeshell farm. To feed pokeshells you can setup ethanol Ethanol Distiller and convert some of your lumber to polluted dirt. You can also use CO2 from Ethanol Distiller to turn water to polluted water.

I have never actually tried this and I am to lazy right now to crunch numbers, but resources mentioned above formed closed circle, you would not need input from geysers. This setup seems scalable, with space being the limiting factor as it requires various setups to be put in place.
As I already mentioned core of this idea is water surplus you would get from hydrocactus farming.

[Niil945]

That's interesting doing 1 dupe per planetoid but it's far from how I tend to do it thus far. Though this may change as they tinker with vents/geysers on them. Typically I go to a planetoid and setup automated resource system. I tame volcanos and ship refined metal to a storage area near my rockets once cooled. I move all resources on the planetoid I want to that storage area also (mostly the metal ore or specific seeds). Then I auto load those resources onto an automated rocket and never worry about that particular planetoid again aside from changing which resources get loaded on my cargo rocket. I usually go for around 15 dupes. I keep 9-10 on my main and 3 on the teleporter planet. 2-3 of my dupes that work from my main colony are my exploration/colonization team. I ship oxygen and water to the teleporter planet. This time through I sent over arbor tree seeds to the teleporter planet and setup a ethanol/nosh bean farm. I use heat from cooling systems (sulfur geyser or other) to grow pincha peppernuts to make spicey tofu. On my main I do grubfruit preserve and frost buns early then switch over to pepperbread later, I reserve the grubfruit preserve for rocketry. For oxygen I much prefer option 6 for any location with a renewable source of po2 as a unlimited source of oxygen and clay. I like the rust deoxidizer but I prefer to utilize salt to make sand and table salt until I get a pokeshell ranch going. This allows me to save all my polluted dirt for feeding them to get the ranch going. It also means I don't have to utilize one oxygen system then switch over to another later as rust is rather limited.

I will say, one of the things I've started doing more work on is ensuring that I'm getting efficient ratios of production so I'm not wasting dupe time doing unnecessary things. I usually vastly overproduce food and power and just feel out how much I need for production chains without mathing it out.

[Hokaeru]

Thank all of you for your great replies ! 

@Dupe_Noir the only problem is grubgrub won't tend to cacti... I have tested myself, and also there is a topic out there about divergent that says the same. So in theory with full efficiency (which is impossible practically) you would get 10 cycle of growth, which means 25kg of net gain per water, at the cost of 25kg of oxygen (8.33*600*5). An electrolyzer uses 1kg of water to produce 888g of O2. So it is a net decrease in oxygen *Sad dupe*
However, as with the swamp start, I think the numbers will be tweaked a little bit when they push the cactus biome in the main branch ! Or it can be made viable with nuclear GMO maybe, we'll see.

I am really curious of how resources will be renewable 

[Dupe_Noir]

@Hokaeru I don't know I just took these screenshot . Grubgrub rub works on hydrocactus for me

[Gurgel]

Can you pip-plant the Hydrocactus to get a wild one?

[sakura_sk]

46 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Can you pip-plant the Hydrocactus to get a wild one?

Of course you can but first you need to find one Hydrocactus  (do they spawn somewhere naturally that I'm unaware of or are they only sandbox spawned?)

[Gurgel]

56 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Of course you can but first you need to find one Hydrocactus  (do they spawn somewhere naturally that I'm unaware of or are they only sandbox spawned?)

Looks like sandbox to me. They are not listed in any of the known biomes in the in-game database.

[The Plum Gate]

2 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Looks like sandbox to me. They are not listed in any of the known biomes in the in-game database.

I think they will have a special place somewhere - the second warp to location planetoid on the DLC for the swampy start could stand to have this, easily - I find Dasha saltvine growing with noshbeans and waterweed with often stifled pinchapepper - where waterweed and hydro cactus could grow together theoretically...

[Gurgel]

14 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

I think they will have a special place somewhere - the second warp to location planetoid on the DLC for the swampy start could stand to have this, easily - I find Dasha saltvine growing with noshbeans and waterweed with often stifled pinchapepper - where waterweed and hydro cactus could grow together theoretically...

That is what I also expect: Need to get to some "tier 2" or "tier 3" location to find it. That would be perfectly fine and we already known they drop seeds.

[Pyrex042]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:25 PM, Gurgel said:

What I find problematic is that the only sustainable Oxygen in the absence of water geysers currently is the Oxyfern.

There are other ways, and new ones in the DLC.

On the Forest/Aluminum/Gold asteroid there no water geysers.  My primary oxygen source is taking the lumber from ~60 wild-planted Arbor trees, processing through 6x Ethanol Distiller, then feeding the 2kg/sec of PDirt to a pair of Sublimation Stations gated behind Deodorizers netting ~1.1kg/sec of Oxygen.

And that's before the backup electrolyzer fed by the PWater output of the two Petroleum Generators.

To be fair though, I don't have fully-sustainable filtration medium yet, if I stay on this save for another 400-500 cycles I'll probably need to ranch pokeshells for sand. (or ship byproduct sand-from-salt from my home asteroid)

[Hokaeru]

@Dupe_Noir Nice thanks ! I don't know what happened with my tests... 

[Lupbert]

On 2/15/2021 at 12:34 PM, Pyrex042 said:

There are other ways, and new ones in the DLC.

On the Forest/Aluminum/Gold asteroid there no water geysers.  My primary oxygen source is taking the lumber from ~60 wild-planted Arbor trees, processing through 6x Ethanol Distiller, then feeding the 2kg/sec of PDirt to a pair of Sublimation Stations gated behind Deodorizers netting ~1.1kg/sec of Oxygen.

And that's before the backup electrolyzer fed by the PWater output of the two Petroleum Generators.

To be fair though, I don't have fully-sustainable filtration medium yet, if I stay on this save for another 400-500 cycles I'll probably need to ranch pokeshells for sand. (or ship byproduct sand-from-salt from my home asteroid)

You could use gulp fish or boiling instead of sand.

Both can be costly in power, but solar is cheap.

[The Plum Gate]

Water purification through pools processing with gulp fish is how I use them.

1 adult ( age greater than or just turning 5 I think ) can convert 3600kg of polluted water to water over the lifespan. Think its 300g/s.  200g/s.

[Hokaeru]

@The Plum Gate Do you have a particular setup for your "Gulp fish Purification pool" or is it mixed Pwater and Water in the same tank ?

[Rinkusan]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:25 PM, Gurgel said:

What I find problematic is that the only sustainable Oxygen in the absence of water geysers currently is the Oxyfern.

As to toilets, you can always just go "no toilets", although that requires a bit of a special base design.

You can make sustainable water using wild arbor trees -> lumber -> ethanol -> petroleum-generator polluted water -> water. Pips are OP imo.

Nvm just noticed someone already mentioned the lumber pathway; ignore my comment

[N00bieMeap]

pips ----> arbor
arbor ------ethanol----> water + power ----> oxygen
pips + arbor ----> free dirt 
pips ----> free food
Pips are OP! please let dupes pet 'em 

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

You can make sustainable water using wild arbor trees -> lumber -> ethanol -> petroleum-generator polluted water -> water. Pips are OP imo.

Yes, and I already said I missed it. Not to worry though, better give advice twice than not at all.

[The Plum Gate]

8 hours ago, Hokaeru said:

@The Plum Gate Do you have a particular setup for your "Gulp fish Purification pool" or is it mixed Pwater and Water in the same tank ?

With the way that polluted slush geysers work, it's usually a tank below the slush geyser, I'll add a feeder and call it good.

This results in the water turning into ice, so it's more like a large icemaker.

[Gurgel]

11 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

With the way that polluted slush geysers work, it's usually a tank below the slush geyser, I'll add a feeder and call it good.

This results in the water turning into ice, so it's more like a large icemaker.

I think I will have to call that somewhat brilliant

[Hokaeru]

Also a dirt maker ? If so, it is like if you had cappucino and you split apart milk and coffee !