[Game Update] - 451611

[Lupbert]

On 2/13/2021 at 1:39 AM, Gurgel said:

Hmm. Looks like for about half of the planetoids, permanent independent survival is still not on the table, except with extreme measures as they have no geysers or only ones not conductive to survival.

Cooling is uncritical as electricity is plenty. Food would be wild plants. Either no toilets/outhouses or toilets with pwater cleared up by boiling or outhouses with dirt from rotting and then composted wild plants. But Oxygen? The only thing I can think off would be Oxyferns.

Perfectly fine with me, but only if there is a way to make fully automated transfers between planets. At the moment the rocket automation does not really seem to cover that.

There still is the "Interplanetary Launcher", which you cannot build yet and which seems to need some kind of "packager" that packs payloads into cans. But it looks to me like automated interplanetary materials transfer is planned.

It's not easy, but it's possible due to pips.

1) Electricity: Trivial

2) Food: Wild from pips

3) CO2: Pump to space

4) Polluted water: Pips->Wild arbor trees->Lumber->Ethonal->Polluted Water

5a) Water: Polluted water->Gulp Fish->Water

5b) Water: Polluted Water->Steam->Water

5c) Water: Lumber (See 4)->Distillery->Polluted Dirt->Crabs->Sand->Water Sieve

6a) Oxygen: Water->O2

6b) Oxygen: Lumber (See 4)->Distillery->Polluted Dirt->Subliminator->Polluted Oxygen->Liquid Oxygen->Oxygen (Not recommended)

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, Lupbert said:

4) Polluted water: Pips->Wild arbor trees->Lumber->Ethonal->Polluted Water

You are right, I missed that path. Probably because the only time I went Nosh Beans, it was a huge effort for little return. If this is to make water, things become a lot easier because there is far less need for cooling. 

[Lupbert]

17 hours ago, Gurgel said:

You are right, I missed that path. Probably because the only time I went Nosh Beans, it was a huge effort for little return. If this is to make water, things become a lot easier because there is far less need for cooling. 

 

Actually, I'm afraid it makes the heat worse, because burning the ethanol for polluted water (and power) is really toasty.  On the bright side, you can use that power to cool it.  Still, Spaced Out lets you make lots of power with glass.

[Gurgel]

4 hours ago, Lupbert said:

Actually, I'm afraid it makes the heat worse, because burning the ethanol for polluted water (and power) is really toasty.  On the bright side, you can use that power to cool it.  Still, Spaced Out lets you make lots of power with glass.

Well, we will see. The problem with Nosh Beans is that you need a constant supply of really cold alcohol. I imagine water is far easier to do. I will definitely try it out when they have finished messing with the world-gen.

[Pyrex042]

I've been using Lumber->...->Sublimator on the forest/aluminum asteroid, but I've been having trouble coming up with a useful, low-dupe-labor source of Sand.

The Pips running around my base are producing large amounts of Dirt, which cooks to Sand at achievable temperatures.  I haven't yet found a way to do that usefully though, as it seems like the conversion always results in a tile instead of debris, which means I both lose half the mass and have to set a dupe to mine it.  Maybe a Thermium Robo-Miner after I get some Niobium?  

Edit:  Hmm, that would take a lot of Pips.  I'm trying to get two Sublimators with enough uptime to produce 1kg/sec O2.  Which means I need 800kg of Sand/cycle, 1600kg of Dirt, so 80 tame Pips...  

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyrex042

[Gurgel]

10 minutes ago, Pyrex042 said:

....but I've been having trouble coming up with a useful, low-dupe-labor source of Sand.

Same here. I think I will try without sand.

[Pyrex042]

@Gurgel Hehe, yeah, now the question is, "which is less effort, 80 pips & a thermium robo-miner, or condensing LOX without super-coolant"...

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyrex042

[sakura_sk]

3 minutes ago, Pyrex042 said:

or condensing LOX without super-coolant

Super-coolant is close though. My guess is super-coolant in one or two updates (I can smell it cooking)

[Sasza22]

44 minutes ago, Pyrex042 said:

but I've been having trouble coming up with a useful, low-dupe-labor source of Sand.

I wonder how a few pokeshells would do. You`re already producing polluted dirt and they will change some of it to sand. You`d just need double the lumber production to sustain all that.

[The Plum Gate]

I think what's evolved is that there are more critters that we're looking out for than we are at caring for the duplicants - they're almost second in command or low priority after food sources have been established, but it's a tug of war really.

Pokeshells are ornery things, it's not predictable how much molting they will do is it? They live long enough too.

Wouldn't any sort of minor volcano be a better source igneous rock to sand from a rock crusher that throwing away polluted dirt on pokeshells?

Really would be nice if we got crab meat or something from them when they die - they leave their final molt and it's not much more than they leave over the course of their lifecycle.

[Pyrex042]

@Sasza22  More than double.  I'd need to go from 60 wild-planted trees to ~150

My goal is to filter 1kg/sec of O2 (sourced from 2kg/sec of PDirt).  That means I need 1.3kg/sec of Sand.

A Pokeshell consumes 233g/sec of PDirt, and returns  116g/sec of Sand.

So I need twelve Pokeshells, consuming 2.8kg/sec of PDirt.

I'd also need to scale up Ethanol Distillers, CO2 management (I'm already producing >2kg/sec of CO2, with the above I'd go up to 5kg/sec), and more heat management.

 

 

@The Plum Gate Yeah, a volcano would certainly be easier. 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyrex042

[Sasza22]

9 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

Pokeshells are ornery things, it's not predictable how much molting they will do is it? They live long enough too.

Pokeshells molt only twice despite what the tooltip says. They leave a molt at the age of 5 when they turn adult and then after they die (i still hope it will get changed or feeding them causes them to do it more often).

Atm you can just wait for them to grow up and find a way to kill them off.

[The Plum Gate]

8 minutes ago, Pyrex042 said:

Yeah, a volcano would certainly be easier. 

Not having a minor volcano is probably an issue then - hopefully worldgen will sort this out. I have had three on every starter map I started since the re-rocketry update.

I would rather conquer a minor volcano or use dasha saltvine via processing their byproducts in a rock crusher for the sand. The salt to table salt returns 95kg of sand, there are other useful passthroughs as well - fossil to sedimentary and lime then with sedimentary to sand. And obviously you can just turn a load of any mineral into sand.

4 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Pokeshells molt only twice despite what the tooltip says. They leave a molt at the age of 5 when they turn adult and then after they die (i still hope it will get changed or feeding them causes them to do it more often).

Atm you can just wait for them to grow up and find a way to kill them off.

Maybe critter feeder would tame them. Are you taming them? I haven't tried ranching or taming them, they eat too much polluted dirt and I haven't bother checking their dietary requirements on rot piles - which may be a more mass effective way to keep them alive when they're not being fed the polluted dirt. They get irritable once there's a roe egg in their navigation path - I mean, this is easy enough to deal with but considering there's no meat at the end of their life, then they seem to be fickle things that can ( surprisingly live under water and just eat byproducts from the fish ) otherwise be ignored or use to kill off fish or other animals ( due to their protective nature ).

I'm kind of leaning on this actually being one of their features since you can shuffle roe around at will with automation or have an open door to the roe in their path - sort of like an attack creature.

Now I want to loose one on my excess plug slugs...

 

[Lupbert]

1 hour ago, Pyrex042 said:

I've been using Lumber->...->Sublimator on the forest/aluminum asteroid, but I've been having trouble coming up with a useful, low-dupe-labor source of Sand.

The Pips running around my base are producing large amounts of Dirt, which cooks to Sand at achievable temperatures.  I haven't yet found a way to do that usefully though, as it seems like the conversion always results in a tile instead of debris, which means I both lose half the mass and have to set a dupe to mine it.  Maybe a Thermium Robo-Miner after I get some Niobium?  

Edit:  Hmm, that would take a lot of Pips.  I'm trying to get two Sublimators with enough uptime to produce 1kg/sec O2.  Which means I need 800kg of Sand/cycle, 1600kg of Dirt, so 80 tame Pips...  

What’s all the sand for?  Poke shells produce more than enough if you’re making glass.  If you’re trying to purify polluted water, try either boiling it or using gulp-fish.

Both are a little tricky, but possible.  For boiling, you need to make sure your steam turbine is disabled if the pressure in the steam room is too low or it will produce Polluted Oxygen.  I generally keep it at 10kg of steam per tile and that seems to work.

[Yunru]

1 hour ago, Pyrex042 said:

but I've been having trouble coming up with a useful, low-dupe-labor source of Sand.

Snappy crabs? 

2 minutes ago, Lupbert said:

What’s all the sand for?  Poke shells produce more than enough if you’re making glass.  If you’re trying to purify polluted water, try either boiling it or using gulp-fish.

Both are a little tricky, but possible.  For boiling, you need to make sure your steam turbine is disabled if the pressure in the steam room is too low or it will produce Polluted Oxygen.  I generally keep it at 10kg of steam per tile and that seems to work.

You want polluted water to off-gas into polluted oxygen. 

You then want sand to filter that, or condense it into LOX before using that for cooling until it's back up to temperature, whereforth it becomes oxygen for dupes to breathe. 

[Sasza22]

3 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

Are you taming them?

Yes. Taming them doesn`t increase the amount of molts (i wish it did). It only makes them eat more.

[The Plum Gate]

1 minute ago, Yunru said:

Snappy crabs? 

This is probably the least heat intensive source - that's all dependent on you either starting with the swamp and saving most of your polluted dirt, or ..well, this is all discussed above.

I'm hoping the world gen changes add some more elements of the swampy starting start to the other roids so that the sludge press and other machines can have uses on other asteroids.

 

1 minute ago, Sasza22 said:

Yes. Taming them doesn`t increase the amount of molts (i wish it did). It only makes them eat more.

This definitely sounds broken. They go from snappy to needy and snappy - how crabby of them.

[Pyrex042]

7 minutes ago, Lupbert said:

What’s all the sand for?  Poke shells produce more than enough if you’re making glass.  If you’re trying to purify polluted water, try either boiling it or using gulp-fish.

Without renewable water, I'm using PDirt in the Sublimation Station to produce PO2, then using Deodorizers to filter it to O2.  Getting 1kg/sec of O2 out means feeding 1.3kg/sec of Sand to Deodorizers.

I'm probably just going to keep crushing rocks for Sand until we get Supercoolant, and which point I'll condense the PO2 to LOX and purify it that way.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Pyrex042

[Yunru]

52 minutes ago, Pyrex042 said:

or condensing LOX without super-coolant

Something useful to know I discovered is that bottled polluted water doesn't exchange heat with the surroundings. So you can have a 25 celcius bottle give off 25 celcius PO2 into an environment cold enough to immediately condense it. 

[Pyrex042]

@Yunru Debris usually exchanges heat with surroundings very slowly, you're saying bottled liquids don't exchange heat at all?  That is certainly interesting, but getting to -200C w/o supercoolant is still more trouble than I'm willing to go to.

[The Plum Gate]

1 minute ago, Pyrex042 said:

Without renewable water, I'm using PDirt in the Sublimation Station to produce PO2, then using Deodorizers to filter it to O2.  Getting 1kg/sec of O2 out means feeding 1.3kg/sec of Sand to Deodorizers.

I generate all my O2 on the swampy start with deodorizers and off gassing pools of polluted water, so I understand I'll be facing the sand scarcity issue as well - I generally use the airflow / mesh tile, water lock ceiling method to contain and separate the gasses so that my energy expenditure is minimized and there's no danger of the deodorizers being over used with an atmo sensor.

The whole teleporting gasses trick is a neat one with that device. But I plan to phase it out in favor of rust deox and part some of the chlorine out to dasha vines if I can get pips to plant them. This would give me a circular flow of salt for the deox and I would be dependent on rust in the absence of water ( which is a real problem in some places ).

[Pyrex042]

@The Plum Gate On the home/base (swamp) asteroid I've got plenty of water from the Polluted Slush and Brine Slush geysers to run electrolyzers.  But the Forest/Aluminum/Gold asteroid has no geysers, only metal volcanoes and CO2 vents.  I get some pwater back from the Petroleum Generators, but it isn't a lot, so I'm trying to make the Sublimators work on that asteroid.  Repeatably shipping reasonable amounts of materials is still really difficult, so I'm trying to get that asteroid to be self-sustaining.

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, Pyrex042 said:

My goal is to filter 1kg/sec of O2 (sourced from 2kg/sec of PDirt).  That means I need 1.3kg/sec of Sand.

What would you need 1kg/sec of O2 for? Do you have the need for 10 dupes in that planetoid? Otherwise oxygen consumption and the need for O2 production is less (meaning sand consumption is less too)

[The Plum Gate]

1 hour ago, Pyrex042 said:

@The Plum Gate On the home/base (swamp) asteroid I've got plenty of water from the Polluted Slush and Brine Slush geysers to run electrolyzers.  But the Forest/Aluminum/Gold asteroid has no geysers, only metal volcanoes and CO2 vents.  I get some pwater back from the Petroleum Generators, but it isn't a lot, so I'm trying to make the Sublimators work on that asteroid.  Repeatably shipping reasonable amounts of materials is still really difficult, so I'm trying to get that asteroid to be self-sustaining.

You could potentially ship some chlorine over there and deal with the slime biomes and gain some algae if you haven't done this already.

Otherwise, there being a co2 vent, i would be launching and landing rockets to boil water under a landing pad. They shoot exhaust heat right through insulated tiles, so maybe boiling the polluted water might actually be efficient. Maybe even drop a few rovers on the surface and send them in digging and for dealing with slime areas.

It almost sounds like you got a broken world seed. The aluminum and gold roid I have had plenty of water pools on it and there's not much slime biome, but it's there.

Shame they don't have the hydrocactus in these maps right now.

Edited February 16, 2021 by The Plum Gate

[Pyrex042]

@sakura_sk Fair point, I'm not running 10 dupes there.  I was trying to get to run a surplus O2 to supplement oxidizer production and take some of the strain off the water supply on the home asteroid, but that may not be practical (at least not with Sand).

Just now, The Plum Gate said:

You could potentially ship some chlorine over there and deal with the slime biomes and gain some algae if you haven't done this already.

Otherwise, there being a co2 vent, i would be launching and landing rockets to boil water under a landing pad. They shoot exhaust heat right through insulated tiles, so maybe boiling a the polluted water might actually be efficient. Maybe even drop a few rovers on the surface and send them in digging and for dealing with slime areas.

Oh, I've got more than enough CO2 w/o opening up the Vents.  My ethanol setup is producing ~2kg/sec CO2, I'm pumping it into an Ethanol-Aquatuner chiller and freezing it for infinite storage and easy transport.  It's already providing CO2 fuel for my entire map and there are dozens of tons of dry ice sitting in the storage room.  (also, FWIW, it's not clear if this is a bug or not, but launching to orbit and landing doesn't actually consume any fuel).

I'm also already using an Aquatuner/Turbine to boil all the pwater coming off the Petrol Generators.

This is a pretty early seed, and a well established colony (coming up on 900 cycles).  I'm just playing around with long-term sustainability projects until there is a big enough world-gen change to motivate me to start a new one.