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Hi all :apple: 

Since the main Wormwood thread in gen disc got locked i thought id make a new thread to share my thoughts on Wormwood and discuss his future as the beta unfolds. Other Wormwood fans feel free chime in. (TLDR at the bottom :lol:)

So far i really like the little changes that Wormwood has gotten.

My favorite would have to be the Compost Wrap buff, i think it might actually be competitive with Salves and Poultice now.

  • Though if i may make a suggestion, id bump it up by 5 more and emphasize the HoT at the cost of the direct heal. Something like 20 direct and 30 heal over time. (or even 10+40). Since the long animation of the Wrap makes it very dangerous to use in combat, the 30 direct heal is kind of unnecessary. If the HoT was bigger you could use it before engaging in combat like jelly beans. And outside of combat it would serve as a very nice alternative to sleeping. 

The two other changes (faster tending, reading plant needs) are spot on flavor/character wise and i really like them but they are shortcuts that are made obsolete/less noticeable later in the game.

----

My thoughts on Wormwood as a character:

Wild Crops: 

Spoiler

 

I think Wormwood's biggest problem with the introduction of the new farming system is that there now is a big difference between wild crops and farm crops. Before the only difference was that Wild Crops grew slower (the price paid for not having to craft incredibly expensive Improved Farms) but the product at the end was the same. But now farm plots arent only much much cheaper to make but they're also the only way to produce Giant Crops. This makes Wild Crops suboptimal in every way. Wild crops need something unique that validates them in comparison to farm crops. My suggestion would be to

  • allow weeds grown from Wormwood's wild planting to give their specific seeds when harvested. These seeds would then only be plantable by Wormwood himself. This perk would only become better with the introduction of more craftables/recipes that require materials from weeds. 

 

 

Green Thumb tab:  

Spoiler

 

Ive already commented on the Wrap and everyone loves the living log craft so this leaves us with the Bramble trap and husk.

Personally i like using them a lot but i think they could be better. Since they are made with living logs and Wormwood still regards the trap as a friend my suggestion would be to make them more alive:

  • allow Bramble Traps to reset themselves after a while 
  • allow Bramble Husk to 'regenerate' durability over time

Besides that i think there are a lot of opportunities to introduce new craftables that require ingredients from weeds or that fulfill new needs related to the new update

One such item could be some kind of flute made with livings logs, reeds and moon glass. 

  • This flute would only be playable by Wormwood and would tend to plants like the panflute. 
  • In addition i think it would be super neat if it also effected other plant-based mobs: 
    • Pacify Tree Guards and Sea Weeds
    • Make Fleshly Bulbs sprout Eye Plants 
    • Amuse the Mush Gnome, making it throw out a unique non-volatile Moon Shroom spore that can only be planted by Wormwood. 

 

 

Blooming

Spoiler

 

Blooming is a fun mechanic and the changing model across all of his skins are very pretty. But its such a shame that it only comes into play for such a short period of time. This has been a very popular suggestion at this point: 

  • allow Super Growth Formula to trigger Blooming
    • A slight increase to the movement speed or some other bonus would also be nice. 
    • Maybe he could periodically drop a random specific seed? Or periodically plant a wild seed at his feet automatically (his flower shoots out seeds all the time)

 

Thats all :lol:!

TLDR:

  • Compost wrap: increase to 50 total, emphasize HoT more: 20+30 or 10+40. 
  • Wild Crops: allow weeds grown from Wormwood's wild planting to give their specific seeds when harvested. These seeds would only be plantable by Wormwood.
  • Green Thumb Tab: More craftables, possibly using materials from weeds 
    • Make bramble trap self-reset and bramble husk slowly regenerate durability 
    • Unique flute only playable by Wormwood: tends to plants and has other effects on plant-based mobs. 
  • Blooming: Allow Super Growth Formula to trigger blooming.
    • make blooming more useful. 
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I do want to see Wormwood get a substantial buff, but I think his Wild Crops are perfect the way they are.

For one, the wild crops have received nothing but buffs in this update, because they work just like farm crops except for the lack of access to nutrients and, usually, moisture. But they now grow in winter, they are immune to withering and they can reliable produce a much better harvest than they did before if you simply tend to them once (which Wormwood does faster than others).

While it's true planting anywhere is no longer as impressive as it once was (and it only was ever impressive because the alternative was absolutely terrible), the ability to plant without tilling is a pretty huge time saver when you are making bigger farms, so in the end Wormwood is still the best character for farming (tied, I suppose, with Wickerbottom).

Combined with the aforementioned faster tending and his ability to (partially) replicate the effects of a ruins item, I don't think Wormwood needs any more buffs in the farming department. I think the best thing they could do would be to expand on the blooming mechanic, cause it's a shame to see all the effort that was clearly put into it be wasted on what's more or less a "flavor" mechanic.

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1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

I don't think Wormwood needs any more buffs in the farming department.

I definitely agree thats why i didnt suggest giant wild crops or a passive growth aura that ive seen suggested a couple of times or anything. i just think now that farm crops have a definitive advantage over wild crops that isnt just faster growth time, they should receive something that makes them unique like allowing the farming of weeds, since they're "wild" and Wormwood isnt one to stigmatize weeds like the others, he calls them friends all the same. 

  • also as you know all those wild crops buffs also apply to farm crops so i dont perceive them as a buff specifically towards wormwood, but just farming in general. 

The flute id mostly be interested in as a way to interact with other plant-based mobs, the plant tending effect is just secondary and something that fits imo, this would have a durability so id be just a character specific one-man-band except instead of durability based on duration it would be uses. 

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1 minute ago, Starlogy said:

The idea of Wormwood playing a cute little flute sounds so lovely. Please Klei, add a Wormwood Flute.

I just thought of him trying to mimic canaries. cant breathe overwhelmed by cuteness

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7 hours ago, Ohan said:

Hi all :apple: 

Since the main Wormwood thread in gen disc got locked i thought id make a new thread to share my thoughts on Wormwood and discuss his future as the beta unfolds. Other Wormwood fans feel free chime in. (TLDR at the bottom :lol:)

So far i really like the little changes that Wormwood has gotten.

My favorite would have to be the Compost Wrap buff, i think it might actually be competitive with Salves and Poultice now.

  • Though if i may make a suggestion, id bump it up by 5 more and emphasize the HoT at the cost of the direct heal. Something like 20 direct and 30 heal over time. (or even 10+40). Since the long animation of the Wrap makes it very dangerous to use in combat, the 30 direct heal is kind of unnecessary. If the HoT was bigger you could use it before engaging in combat like jelly beans. And outside of combat it would serve as a very nice alternative to sleeping. 

The two other changes (faster tending, reading plant needs) are spot on flavor/character wise and i really like them but they are shortcuts that are made obsolete/less noticeable later in the game.

----

My thoughts on Wormwood as a character:

Wild Crops: 

  Hide contents

 

I think Wormwood's biggest problem with the introduction of the new farming system is that there now is a big difference between wild crops and farm crops. Before the only difference was that Wild Crops grew slower (the price paid for not having to craft incredibly expensive Improved Farms) but the product at the end was the same. But now farm plots arent only much much cheaper to make but they're also the only way to produce Giant Crops. This makes Wild Crops suboptimal in every way. Wild crops need something unique that validates them in comparison to farm crops. My suggestion would be to

  • allow weeds grown from Wormwood's wild planting to give their specific seeds when harvested. These seeds would then only be plantable by Wormwood himself. This perk would only become better with the introduction of more craftables/recipes that require materials from weeds. 

 

 

Green Thumb tab:  

  Hide contents

 

Ive already commented on the Wrap and everyone loves the living log craft so this leaves us with the Bramble trap and husk.

Personally i like using them a lot but i think they could be better. Since they are made with living logs and Wormwood still regards the trap as a friend my suggestion would be to make them more alive:

  • allow Bramble Traps to reset themselves after a while 
  • allow Bramble Husk to 'regenerate' durability over time

Besides that i think there are a lot of opportunities to introduce new craftables that require ingredients from weeds or that fulfill new needs related to the new update

One such item could be some kind of flute made with livings logs, reeds and moon glass. 

  • This flute would only be playable by Wormwood and would tend to plants like the panflute. 
  • In addition i think it would be super neat if it also effected other plant-based mobs: 
    • Pacify Tree Guards and Sea Weeds
    • Make Fleshly Bulbs sprout Eye Plants 
    • Amuse the Mush Gnome, making it throw out a unique non-volatile Moon Shroom spore that can only be planted by Wormwood. 

 

 

Blooming

  Hide contents

 

Blooming is a fun mechanic and the changing model across all of his skins are very pretty. But its such a shame that it only comes into play for such a short period of time. This has been a very popular suggestion at this point: 

  • allow Super Growth Formula to trigger Blooming
    • A slight increase to the movement speed or some other bonus would also be nice. 
    • Maybe he could periodically drop a random specific seed? Or periodically plant a wild seed at his feet automatically (his flower shoots out seeds all the time)

 

Thats all :lol:!

TLDR:

  • Compost wrap: increase to 50 total, emphasize HoT more: 20+30 or 10+40. 
  • Wild Crops: allow weeds grown from Wormwood's wild planting to give their specific seeds when harvested. These seeds would only be plantable by Wormwood.
  • Green Thumb Tab: More craftables, possibly using materials from weeds 
    • Make bramble trap self-reset and bramble husk slowly regenerate durability 
    • Unique flute only playable by Wormwood: tends to plants and has other effects on plant-based mobs. 
  • Blooming: Allow Super Growth Formula to trigger blooming.
    • make blooming more useful. 

I think the plants that grow underneath him during bloom should change according to skin used as well

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I have a crazy idea too: Spiny Bindweeds are protecting plants in a certain range, but not from Wormwood, because he is a plant too. So what if they protect Wormwood too if he get attacked by a creature in the plants range? So the Spiny Bindweeds could get a use.

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I keep seeing people say that Wormwood's ability to plant crops anywhere isn't as good because the crops can't become giant, but as far as I know, the only benefit to giant crops is that you get one extra piece of food when you break it? (Like, I get if you want giant crops specifically, like to be decorative or something! But in general, I think most peoples' concern is getting more food.)

So... for the same effect, you could just plant twice as many seeds, right? It's not necessary to maximize your produce-to-seed ratio with every plant if you can just plant an entire screenful at once.

Am I missing something else extra-special about giant crops?

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1 minute ago, BlueCorvid said:

I keep seeing people say that Wormwood's ability to plant crops anywhere isn't as good because the crops can't become giant, but as far as I know, the only benefit to giant crops is that you get one extra piece of food when you break it? (Like, I get if you want giant crops specifically, like to be decorative or something! But in general, I think most peoples' concern is getting more food.)

So... for the same effect, you could just plant twice as many seeds, right? It's not necessary to maximize your produce-to-seed ratio with every plant if you can just plant an entire screenful at once.

Am I missing something else extra-special about giant crops?

The yield is times 2.75, that is HUGE. Absolutely worth it if you manage a setup that requires very few maintenance.

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2 minutes ago, Dechou said:

The yield is times 2.75, that is HUGE. Absolutely worth it if you manage a setup that requires very few maintenance.

I'm assuming that extra .75 means there's a chance for a third crop? Which is still not so much that I'd call it "HUGE" honestly. I can definitely see it being ideal if you want to maintain a minimal amount of of farm plots but playing as Wormwood, I haven't had to maintain anything -- I just planted every seed I got, dug up the ones that were weeds, and came back later to a bunch of crops. I didn't even keep talking to them once I had too many. I'm like 10 days into my first winter (I tested previously with Wickerbottom as well, so I did try the "maintain a few smaller plots" method as well!) and I'm drowning in carrots and potatoes.

It's just a different way to get to the same place, I think.

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Giant crop = 2.75 vegetables + 2.25 seeds -> 5x yield (as you can plant the 2.25 excess seeds in a regular farm next to your intensive farm). It's indeed HUGE, in my opinion, compared to the regular 1x yield, or the 2x-3x yields for semi-intensive farms.

I totally agree with Ohan analysis and the need for a Wormwood buff after this update. (Here is what I posted in the update topic)

Spoiler

Before this update, selective farming was quite inefficient compared to basic farming, so the Wormwood power to set a wide basic farm was very convenient.
Now, as selective farming with giant crops is meant to shine and overshadow basic farming, its power looks way less useful...

Unfortunately, I'm not a Wormwood player so I my analysis on what he needs would not be very relevant...
Aside the farming mechanic, what I noted is that Wormwood has a LOT of trouble to heal himself (it's part of the character, I know) even if he has a specific compost wrap to do so (so weak that it's not used ?). Maybe his compost wrap should be buffed ?

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5 minutes ago, BlueCorvid said:

I'm assuming that extra .75 means there's a chance for a third crop? Which is still not so much that I'd call it "HUGE" honestly. I can definitely see it being ideal if you want to maintain a minimal amount of of farm plots but playing as Wormwood, I haven't had to maintain anything -- I just planted every seed I got, dug up the ones that were weeds, and came back later to a bunch of crops. I didn't even keep talking to them once I had too many. I'm like 10 days into my first winter (I tested previously with Wickerbottom as well, so I did try the "maintain a few smaller plots" method as well!) and I'm drowning in carrots and potatoes.

It's just a different way to get to the same place, I think.

You have 75% chance for a third crop yes, +275% yield is a huge boost to me I can't see another word for that. Of course you don't need to grow giant crops, but what you have to invest for +275% yield is definitely worth it, you can however argue that you might want to invest time and ressource somewhere or somehow else. "Maintaining" the crops is not even a cost anymore once you have everything. Friendly fruit flies deals with happiness, nutrient cycling is autonomous, and a tile with 100% water will only need to be refilled during the growth if you plant tomato or watermelon, otherwise it will have enough without refill. Spring will refill water for you for those two crops.

My point is that the maintenance cost is really not that big, even without perfect nutrient cycle by the way.

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47 minutes ago, BlueCorvid said:

I keep seeing people say that Wormwood's ability to plant crops anywhere isn't as good because the crops can't become giant, but as far as I know, the only benefit to giant crops is that you get one extra piece of food when you break it? (Like, I get if you want giant crops specifically, like to be decorative or something! But in general, I think most peoples' concern is getting more food.)

So... for the same effect, you could just plant twice as many seeds, right? It's not necessary to maximize your produce-to-seed ratio with every plant if you can just plant an entire screenful at once.

Am I missing something else extra-special about giant crops?

Actually, you can get more veggies with wormwood with less work

I think he is ok. If you play worwood alone you will not need 90% of crops because of the lack of healing and, if you play with others, you can help them plating the seeds that doesnt fit in the soil making the production even bigger

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1 hour ago, BlueCorvid said:

but playing as Wormwood, I haven't had to maintain anything -- I just planted every seed I got, dug up the ones that were weeds, and came back later to a bunch of crops.

The whole point of my post and other Wormwood players concerns is that what you said above is no longer a Wormwood exclusive. Every other character can now do the same with minimal investment.

  • 12 wood, 6 grass and 2 flint give every character the ability to plant 36 seeds in 4 tiles. Or a humongous 64 seeds if you plant 4x4. 
    • In all my time playing as wormwood ive never planted more than 40 Dragon Fruit (or any) seeds at a time because they just spoil/take too long to harvest etc. 

Arguably the biggest perk when it comes to farming that Wormwood now has is not needing to till, which dont get me wrong, is not something to scoff at but anything else the other characters can do too. 

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Actually, you can get more veggies with wormwood with less work

WIld Crops cannot grow Giant, 40 giant crops x 2.75 = 110 crops + seeds.

  • In order to get that many with WIld planting you would need to plant and harvest (and tend to if u want to do it again later) 110 seeds
  • how is that less work lol?

If more veggies is the goal there is no world where wild planting is more efficient/less work than auto-nutrient giant crops. I dont really understand why you keep insisting there is 

again, Wormwood's biggest farming perk now is not needing to till, insisting that his Wild Crops are secret OP and better than giant crops when it comes to growing food doesnt seem valid imo (also is wormwood a character you have played often before this update? you seem like a WX guy :D

------

Wormwood can no longer claim mass farming as his 'best/biggest/unique' perk, which is fine i dont mind. But in return he needs stuff like better (and on demand) Blooming, more/better Green Thumb craftables, more plant friends etc etc 

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1 hour ago, Ohan said:

WIld Crops cannot grow Giant, 40 giant crops x 2.75 = 110 crops + seeds.

  • In order to get that many with WIld planting you would need to plant and harvest (and tend to if u want to do it again later) 110 seeds
  • how is that less work lol?

Because if you plant 40 seeds in soil you have to use the hoe 40 times. In that time, as wormwood, you couls plant +80 seeds. Tending them is less than a second of one mand band or nothing with friendly fruit fly

 

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

(also is wormwood a character you have played often before this update? you seem like a WX guy :D

Seems like i should change the avatar, you arent the 1st one. I dont play Wx, i just like his desing (and this avatar is from 'strange new powers' trailer, which i found hilarios), his gameplay is very boring imo

I played a lot wormwood to help my friends to have easy access to healings and also, i have a friend that loves playing as warly so, with the old method, or you play wormwood or wicked and, anyways, was a pain to return the veggies to the bird 

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

Wormwood can no longer claim mass farming as his 'best/biggest/unique' perk

I know but that doesnt mean he should be as 'game breaker' (i cant think another description) as he was before in comparation to farms. I just say that isnt like now is useless like some people seems to think, is just, that in comparation, the difference of farming with wormwood and without arent that huge but only that because the perk is exacly the same. You can still making entire screens of crops, even is better because you dont need to feed a bird to get the seeds back

 

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

But in return he needs stuff like better (and on demand) Blooming

That is something i always wanted

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1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Because if you plant 40 seeds in soil you have to use the hoe 40 times. In that time, as wormwood, you couls plant +80 seeds.

I agree not needing to till is a nice perk but the time saved on not having to till 40 times is just instead spent on harvesting the 70 extra wild crops... if not longer.

at best the amount of time would even out (which i doubt) but even then 40 giant crops:

  • need a lot less space: 4 (4x4) or 5 (3x3) tiles and not the entire screen like 110 wild crops would.
  • stay fresh for 40 days + the amount of days it takes for the fresh hammered crops out of them to rot, which means they dont take up space in fridges/salt boxes/bundling wraps like the 110 wild crops
  • And if i remember correctly more crops also increase chances for the fruitfly boss to spawn 

Theres no reason why i would ever choose to plant 110 wild seeds instead of 40 farmplot seeds as Wormwood, you're just putting yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage considering how cheap rigamajig is and how easy auto-nutrient giants are.

And its not like planting in farmplot takes away Wormwood's not needing to till or faster tending, so its faster and more efficient for Wormwood to plant in farmplots and grow giants. After i have materials for rigamajig the only thing i use wild planting for is to get Weeds and for decoration 

  • edit: thats why i suggested farming Weeds easier should become the unique perk of Wild Crops
  • edit2: after some thinking i think a case could be made for Wild Crops being the preferred option for small-scale (nongiant obv) monoculture, so a farmplot doesnt get absolutely drained out of 1 specific nutrient. But then, unless im mistaken, you cant get 1 crop + 2 seeds from wild planting, so you would have to feed ur 1 wild crop to a bird to get 2 seeds in total in order to expand. 
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18 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I agree not needing to till is a nice perk but the time saved on not having to till 40 times is just instead spent on harvesting the 70 extra wild crops... if not longer.

at best the amount of time would even out (which i doubt) but even then 40 giant crops:

  • need a lot less space: 4 (4x4) or 5 (3x3) tiles and not the entire screen like 110 wild crops would.
  • stay fresh for 40 days + the amount of days it takes for the fresh hammered crops out of them to rot, which means they dont take up space in fridges/salt boxes/bundling wraps like the 110 wild crops
  • And if i remember correctly more crops also increase chances for the fruitfly boss to spawn 

Theres no reason why i would ever choose to plant 110 wild seeds instead of 40 farmplot seeds as Wormwood, you're just putting yourself at an unnecessary disadvantage considering how cheap rigamajig is and how easy auto-nutrient giants are. 

Here's a reason why I like to plant wild seeds:

When I farm giant crops, I end up with a lot of extra seeds. Instead of feeding those seeds to a bird, as Wormwood I plant them outside farm plots and after a while they grow into more food. I don't care for them at all - I plant them as tightly packed as I could and don't even tend to them once - so I just get crop from them. It pretty much just increases my profit from those giant crops by converting the extra seeds into food.

I don't mind the extra harvest time because it's still less time spent than the time it would take to take care of crops to grow them giant. I don't mind Lord of the Fruit Flies either, since he was nerfed so hard over the past updates that I quite literally just hold F on him with a dark sword and he just drops. I mainly worry about him ruining my giant crops, but with crops that I've taken no care of, he's a non-issue.

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42 minutes ago, Electroely said:

 

Yeah wild planting is a nice option for surplus seeds from giant crops but at that point isnt it just overkill/superfluous? I mean compare it to the role wild crops played before this update. thats all im trying to underline really. My claim is not that wild crops are garbage its just that their value has plummeted after the update, which again im fine with if it means farming is not as impractical for the rest of the cast as it was before. (im actually excited about picking up Wurt and Warly for the first time after the update goes live)

  • Notice i never suggested raw buffs to wild crops to make them compete with farm raised Giants in terms of food production.

My suggestion was to carve out a unique niche for Wild Crops in the form of farming Weeds (something everyone whos commenting seemingly ignores and act like im suggesting wild giants :D). If farmplots have the boon of growing Giants, Wild Crops/Wormwood should have something in return like the ability to intentionally propagate Weeds. This would be a fitting perk imo that would really come to shine with the introduction of more recipes/craftables that require materials from weeds. Farming weeds in a wild way is a perfect combo, because it nullifies the nutrient drain of weeds, which only drain and dont release. 

----------

I didnt really make this thread to launch a discussion around the pros and cons of wild vs farmplot crops, since i am entirely okay with how they function in regards to growing veg/fruit, the entire point i tried to make was that his unique perk has gotten diluted which warrants a re-examination of his character. With the possibility of moving away from strictly "crop-grower" and more towards his Blooming mechanic and Green Thumb tab. 

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I'm a Wormwood main these days but I used to main Wickerbottom and Wendy, so I've tested this beta with them, too! I don't know if @Ohan was talking about me, but I've never played WX. :D

For context, I play a lot of early game, so maybe take what I'm saying with that in mind... but making garden rigamajigs, having them till the soil for you, using a hoe to make spots to plant... those things are cheaper in terms of the resources you need to get than advanced farms, for sure! But they're much more time-intensive. And especially in early-game, time is hunger.

I don't disagree that Wormwood could use some later-game mechanics to round him out! (I'd really like to see him be able to do something with the weeds, since they're really neat!) I didn't mean to start any kind of argument here, so I apologize.

...

Personally, though, I still don't think that giant crops are so great that Wormwood's ability to plant anywhere with no prep isn't an advantage anymore.

11 hours ago, Nyr said:

Giant crop = 2.75 vegetables + 2.25 seeds -> 5x yield (as you can plant the 2.25 excess seeds in a regular farm next to your intensive farm). It's indeed HUGE, in my opinion, compared to the regular 1x yield, or the 2x-3x yields for semi-intensive farms.

I disagree with this. Typical farming with minimal maintenance has gotten me one crop and one seed per harvest, so 2-3 crops and 2-3 seeds is 2-3x the yield, not 5x. (I've only ever gotten a crop and no seed when the plants aren't in season, at which point you can't get giant crops either, I think, right? For reference, "minimal maintenance" for me was just planting stuff with like crops together when possible and making sure there were no weeds around.)

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I’m not a Wormwood main but I think since he is a plant and plants are friendly to him he should have a few more Plant themed perks-

Something like being able to easily summon friendly Treeguards by offering trees some of the new fertilizers (woodie has a 50% extra chance to spawn them in Angry)

In addition angry tree’s such as Birchnutters will completely ignore wormwood and walk past him to attack the next non-plant target (think of it like sticking a stick between a trail of ants and food.. they’ll go over, under or around the stick to get the food)

I think he should also be able to jump into ponds to restore his health kind of like bathing in a Hot Tub, he is a plant after all and being Watered should actually probably heal him to prevent over abuse of this new feature Klei could introduce something to balance it out- such as over watering him or dirty pond water injuring him.

Dirty Pond water could happen after Wormwood uses a pond to heal himself, leaving behind mud and leaf petals in the pond for a period of time that after awhile.. players can use the Bug Net to clean out again and reuse.

Basically- What I’m saying is Wormwoods ability to grow crops anywhere isn’t the only way they could make Wormwood more unique..

He’s a Plant, so think happy plant thoughts :) 

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