Wigfrid is fine

[00petar00]

She actually has quite a few threads and youtube discussions about her being too strong which seems a bit too much.

What i'd like to start with is that mostly new players play her and they won't manage to make many songs and i am sure like 95% of people will never make all her songs as less then 5% people actually do caves content.

Before this rework DST veterans compared her to Wolfgang and basically called her a weaker version of him which was quite true, i understand that not all characters should be equal as this isn't a game where that matters but if there are two similar characters who are supposed to be doing the same thing and one is stronger then the other, then there's not much of a point in not changing the direction of said character, which actually happened with how Wigfrid is similar to bard/buff like character in games, yes she kept her abilities from before but if she was supposed to get nerfed, i'd say songs should've been available and free from start.

Don't forget the other reworks, all of them have buffed said characters and i think Klei is doing this well, from what i understand they are trying to get all characters to A or S tier (quite a few people made lists on characters and rating them), so that no one will get asked why is he playing that character if he plays with other people and they don't want to play with him. Klei is trying to make all characters relevant and playable and they should all have unique abilities that will make them useful in one way or another so that they are playable without making yourself worse off just by picking said character.

I really enjoy Wigfrid's lore and her as a character, i spent hundreds of hours playing her just because i like her even though she is not my main character, it feels nice to see her finally have something unique that can't be done by other characters except her battle helms.

Some of her songs should be changed or fine tuned so that they are all equally as useful or as close as that can be, only song i really have issues with is Fireproof Falsetto as 33% fire resistance doesn't seem appealing in any way, even if it was at 100% only time it would be used is if you fight Dragonfly. I don't want to go in depth about this as i didn't make this thread for discussing her abilities but i had talk about that song.

Last thing i want to mention is that i don't mind if Klei makes the game harder, i'd actually enjoy that as the game is too easy for me and i can only die if i don't play seriously but i don't think this should be done with nerfing all the characters, there's already Wes for people who want to put themselves at a disadvantage by picking a character.

[thegreatJash]

Compare her to Wickerbottom's books that she can make. Her books define her playstyle, as her books each have an important use.

Applied Horticulture is the strongest in my opinion the strongest as it allows you to stockpile food extremely fast, allowing you to feed armies of Wolfgangs and feast during winter.

Birds of the World combined with Sleepytime Stories makes the most efficient Krampus Farm. And on the lunar island it's even better.

Sleepytime Stories also can just act as a cheap pan flute that has almost double the range.

On Tentacles can be used to make certain automated farms that provide tons of food and other good loot, and can be used to kill big bosses such as Bee Queen.

And finally, The End is Nigh is only really useful with a WX, and when used properly can make WX the strongest character in the game.

So when you join a server as Wickerbottom, you are kind of just expected to feed the Wolfgangs and charge the WXs. It's her playstyle and what makes her so strong.

Now Wigfrid, on the other hand, has her own unique songs that do things, but they aren't nearly as strong or useful as Wickerbottom's books. They provide small buffs to her and her allies, some of them are decent, but a few kinda suck. The don't change her playstyle, and when you join as Wigfrid you are expected to make helmets and spears, not songs immediately.

Her songs can be useful, but there are other ways to gain health from attacking enemies, Bat bats, there are other ways to deal with sanity auras, Bee Queen crowns, and there are other ways to deal with weapon durability, Ham Bats. Sure, you might argue that her songs are easier to get then the things I listed after them, but now let's look at Wickerbottom's books again.

There is no other way in the game to spawn in Tentacles where you want them to, there is no other way to stockpile food as fast as Applied Horticulture, and there is no other way to manually charge WX for up to a full in-game season. They are powerful and what make Wickerbottoms Wickerbottoms.

Tldr, her songs aren't playstyle changing and I think Klei did a great job at changing her but also keeping her the same.

[Toroic]

Most of the songs really aren’t that expensive at all to make, and they can be reused infinitely.

I would say there are some tuning issues (fire resist being only 33% is underwhelming) but overall I’m pretty happy with what was done.

My bigger concern is that since every rework has been a straight buff, what will be done for Wolfgang/Wicker/Wx who are too powerful with trivial downsides already?  I hope they won’t simply get small buffs and more flavor.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Most of the songs really aren’t that expensive at all to make, and they can be reused infinitely.

I would say there are some tuning issues (fire resist being only 33% is underwhelming) but overall I’m pretty happy with what was done.

My bigger concern is that since every rework has been a straight buff, what will be done for Wolfgang/Wicker/Wx who are too powerful with trivial downsides already?  I hope they won’t simply get small buffs and more flavor.

I am assuming that they won't buff Wolfgang/Wicker, i think they are only buffing characters that aren't as strong as these two are, i mean will there be a point of them buffing all these characters if they make Wolfgang/Wicker even stronger?

Wx is a different story, i feel like even though he is strong on his own on DST with how many gears you can gather, but later on in game if you have Wicker you'll easily have healing food either way, only reason he is so good is because he can be charged by Wicker. You can do ruins pretty fast with quite a few characters, yes Wx is the one you speedrun it with but i wouldn't pick him just for that.

So i feel like Wx is in a weird spot, i don't think he needs buffs but on his own i wouldn't put him on the same tier as Wicker/Wolfgang but if he is charged he is there with them.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Most of the songs really aren’t that expensive at all to make, and they can be reused infinitely.

I would say there are some tuning issues (fire resist being only 33% is underwhelming) but overall I’m pretty happy with what was done.

My bigger concern is that since every rework has been a straight buff, what will be done for Wolfgang/Wicker/Wx who are too powerful with trivial downsides already?  I hope they won’t simply get small buffs and more flavor.

i said it in other post or maybe this one but i see a portion of a klei stream showing warly for dst and one dev says, talking about volt jelly, something like "ye wolfgang will get a stupid damage but he will be reworked anyways"

[Cheggf]

10 hours ago, Toros said:

Most of the songs really aren’t that expensive at all to make, and they can be reused infinitely.

I would say there are some tuning issues (fire resist being only 33% is underwhelming) but overall I’m pretty happy with what was done.

My bigger concern is that since every rework has been a straight buff, what will be done for Wolfgang/Wicker/Wx who are too powerful with trivial downsides already?  I hope they won’t simply get small buffs and more flavor.

DST does a lot to indirectly nerf WX. He's basically just Wolfgang's speed buff, but a little faster and it requires a Wickerbottom keeps feeding you red gems instead of just being obtained basically passively. Wendy & Maxwell are way stronger than him, and Wendy even has less downsides than him. I'd even say that Woodie is a more powerful character than WX with all the changes DST has brought.

[Karitha]

 

22 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

95% of people will never make all her songs as less then 5% people actually do caves content.

The problem is this. We did see same things on Wendy too! Most of my friends don't use Wendy's ectoherbology tab and wigdrid's tab is more complex than it. Also its hard to handle bar, it's getting empty extremely fast. I don't care if she is god or supergod. Her new powers mostly effect her friends so it's just okay and lil balanced, but not practical.

[sinisterrkid]

Yeah, seeing some reactions to Wigfrid's rework just reinforces that it's impossible to update a game and make every single player happy. I still like all the discussions around it, but aiming for total consensus is one way to go insane.

[GelatinousCube]

She WAS fine... and now shes still just as good.. but the rework did very very little to actually add anything whatsoever to her kit, her playstyle and her character. If you compare it to every other rework so far I would honestly argue it isn't even really a rework at all, she can't really do anything new except these boring and generally not worthwhile songs and is barely changed.

I genuinely would have preferred no rework to this one..

[00petar00]

44 minutes ago, GelatinousCube said:

She WAS fine... and now shes still just as good.. but the rework did very very little to actually add anything whatsoever to her kit, her playstyle and her character. If you compare it to every other rework so far I would honestly argue it isn't even really a rework at all, she can't really do anything new except these boring and generally not worthwhile songs and is barely changed.

I genuinely would have preferred no rework to this one..

I disagree,i think you are forgetting how useful her abilities would be if used on multiple people.

Her Heartrending Ballad song, literally allows all her allies to heal by hitting creatures and plus it works well for her solo play too, she can easily kill deerclops with minimal health loss with just battle helm and ham bat, and literally she can just start fighting any mob that has a lot of health or spiders where there are multiple dens and she'll heal to full health in no time.

Also as long as Klei keeps releasing hard to kill bosses like fuelweaver (as long as you don't use any setups but just kill him normally) in any big boss fights when there are multiple people, she's great. 

Bel canto of courage halves sanity drain, fuelweaver has 400 sanity drain per minute, so how do you not think this is useful for these boss fights?

Clear minded cadenza allows her to regain her sanity whenever she wants, giving 1 sanity per hit, basically if you use heartrending ballad and this song after you kill a strong boss and you are low on health and sanity, you can recover them really fast for no cost outside of durability but this is actually wrong way to use weapons with high damage, you should be using walking cane on creatures to regain health and sanity because these songs have on-hit effects. This allows you to fight creatures for longer and hit them more so you can regain sanity, its useful if you are not fighting something with a lot of health.

[GelatinousCube]

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I disagree,i think you are forgetting how useful her abilities would be if used on multiple people.

Her Heartrending Ballad song, literally allows all her allies to heal by hitting creatures and plus it works well for her solo play too, she can easily kill deerclops with minimal health loss with just battle helm and ham bat, and literally she can just start fighting any mob that has a lot of health or spiders where there are multiple dens and she'll heal to full health in no time.

Also as long as Klei keeps releasing hard to kill bosses like fuelweaver (as long as you don't use any setups but just kill him normally) in any big boss fights when there are multiple people, she's great. 

Bel canto of courage halves sanity drain, fuelweaver has 400 sanity drain per minute, so how do you not think this is useful for these boss fights?

Clear minded cadenza allows her to regain her sanity whenever she wants, giving 1 sanity per hit, basically if you use heartrending ballad and this song after you kill a strong boss and you are low on health and sanity, you can recover them really fast for no cost outside of durability but this is actually wrong way to use weapons with high damage, you should be using walking cane on creatures to regain health and sanity because these songs have on-hit effects. This allows you to fight creatures for longer and hit them more so you can regain sanity, its useful if you are not fighting something with a lot of health.

Im a predominantly solo player unfortunately..

Heartrending is not bad but you can just eat jellybeans which late game you are swimming in. Bel Canto is nice but I can't stand the other sanity song, some other unique song would have been highly preferred. Don't completely understand your last point but you cant use the ongoing songs against mobs and enemies without much health... the way the inspiration meter works doesn't allow it, this is only doable on bosses. 

Unless your saying to go and fight mobs after killing a boss while your inspiration is still high to keep songs going? this would require you building mob dens very close to bosses because of how fast inspiration drains... not a bad idea though hmmmmm

[chirsg]

Songs for utility against bosses just isn't that fun. Should be usable against small bads. or small good. It's fine that inspo ticks up slowly against mini mobs, but I strongly disagree with it ticking down at the rate that it does now. Songs are unnecessary against big bosses both in teams and out of them. Wigfrid has ways of boss killing without books but they gave her an easier time with those dangers. Fine, whatever, cool.

So why not let her have a more reliable way of managing against the hunchback armies without having to stereotypically tank everything and allow her an inspo meter that ticks down at a more reasonable rate without having to worry that evading danger will just take away all utility of her new ability?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

I think the fear needs a little buff to be a useful tool and also fix how mobs still atacking you after the fear is applied. The fire resistance needs something that actually works

Klei didnt wanted any risk but seems like 2 characters in 1. The metter should have more gameplay impact in the regular days so it isnt just a useless metter when you dont need songs

Having 3 songs is cool and i think helps enough in boss fights

3 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Songs are unnecessary against big bosses both in teams and out of them.

But helps. I dont want another volt jelly kind of buff

 

 

Edit. She still being strong because they didnt nerf her but the new stuff stuff should have more impact to feel it useful. Buffed crowd controll will only make her more useful but not totallt imb4 imo

[Ohan]

the songs are majorly geared towards teamplay thats just how it is, remarking that team buffs are less useful when playing solo doesnt really make much sense to me. If u play solo yes u'll be drowning in all kinds of resources like jellybeans and BQ crowns that sort of invalidate Heartrending and Bel Canto. 

But if ur playing on a public server or with a few inexperienced players, Wigfrid has the power to still easily make scary boss fights happen with her helmets and songs. in my experience in a messy public server majority of ppl arent really organized enough to ready their own supplies for a boss fight like healing food and armor/weaponry. As wigfrid u can drag everyone to dfly give them helmets and hambats with all your excess pigskin, and sing heartrending for a very easy boss fight. 

Clear Minded Cadenza will be most useful vs Toadstool i think because it can negate the cave sanity drain + dark sword drain (also shining moment for weaponized warble) 

 

we'll see what klei decides to do, wether they want to make the songs more available or limit them to boss fights only like they practically are rn. 

 

things i would like to see (for the 100th time ):

1. Weaponized Warble working on Morning Star and Weather pain (and maybe armor to a lesser degree) 
2. Longer duration on the Fear 
3. Change Fireproof falsetto entirely tbh. an idea ive seen for this that i liked was to change it into giving insulations for winter and summer fights. I think a bit of water resistance would also be really nice for cave fights in spring/winter 
4. Fit a small movespeed aura somewhere in there. i think that'd be very nice. Like if she sings 3 songs/full Inspiration she gives a 10% movespeed aura. 

[sudoku]

Last night, I played Wigfrid and based in Oasis. There was a spider quarry nearby and at dusk I could farm the spiders (10+) nests very quickly by using Heartrending ballad and Startling Soliloquy. So i dont agree that her songs are only useful on Bosses, heck i messed up and my helm broke and lost half my health while fighting the spiders, disengaged and made another helm and then proceeded to lifesteal my way to full health again with Heartrending ballad.

I will agree though that the other songs are niche and buffing the soliloquy would be nice but not mandatory, its already pretty good as is.   

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i tried the shadow pieces with the heal song, durability and sanity on hit

i was at arround 50 sanity and 70% wetness so i was losing sanity fast+shadows aura but the sanity rises with so i see that song so powerfull

the durability made me finish the fight unsing only 60 or 70 durability (i dont remember) of a glass cutter instead of 157% if i dont failed in the calcs.