Sliders for boss HP/DMG

[Dunk Mujunk]

Not sure if we have polled this yet, so lets do it.

As usual, no wrong answers. Expand upon your choice if you like.

[Mike23Ua]

Yes- but for two reasons.. to make the game more accessible to solo players.

and probably even more importantly- to make things that are too easy for a group of players even MORE of a challenge then it currently is for them.

think of it as like Boss Difficulty: Solo/ Coop, (1-2 players) Default (3-4 Players), Starving Together! (5+ players..)

Not only THIS but if you could scale bosses based on the boss itself you can set them up to start out Easy and progressively become harder. Want a harder Deerclops? Set her to Hard, want an easy dragonfly? Set her to easy. Like the default challenge already in the game for Antlion? Leave him Default.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

I dont really care but seems like some people want to beat the game in few hours when this is a trial and error game. This game is suppose to put you near heart atack so if you can change even more how works the giants people will loose inceptive of learning (even more, remember that 90% of workshop is basically cheating)

People this days just want to win with no effort for that there is a lot of games and for this some people we just get stuck onky playing this. Is where we win always so making the game easier will only increase this toxic behavoid.

Also, rogelike, if you die you learn. There is other kind of games for casuals

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

No, that would make it easy and unfair. Because the healthpools are enormous for certain bosses, it doesn't mean there aren't any methods to beat them.

[Well-met]

5 hours ago, Charlie Dark said:

No, that would make it easy and unfair. Because the healthpools are enormous for certain bosses, it doesn't mean there aren't any methods to beat them.

Exploits shouldn't be relied upon. They can get fixed like the fuelweaver's bone cage did.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

On 6/11/2020 at 2:38 PM, Well-met said:

Exploits shouldn't be relied upon. They can get fixed like the fuelweaver's bone cage did.

Will you stop? You just came to bash me again because I "cheesed" one or two bosses and posted screenshots of it? If these were exploits they would have been patched out a long time ago like the bone cage, what is it that you want?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Exploits shouldn't be relied upon. They can get fixed like the fuelweaver's bone cage did.

All bosses can be killed by wes without exploits

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, Charlie Dark said:

Will you stop? You just came to bash me again because I "cheesed" one or two bosses. If these were exploits they would have been patched out a long time ago like the bone cage, what is it that you want?

Don't talk about boss balance if you use exploits. Simple enough. 

if you think my mild posts are harassing you, boy you're in for a treat on the internet.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Well-met said:

Don't talk about boss balance if you use exploits. Simple enough. 

if you think my mild posts are harassing you, boy you're in for a treat on the internet.

Dont talk about balancing bosses if you dont knpw how to beat them fairly 

[Well-met]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Dont talk about balancing bosses if you dont knpw how to beat them fairly 

I don't know where you're getting this from.

Please don't white-knight Charlie Dark. They can speak for themselves.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

Just now, Well-met said:

Don't talk about boss balance if you use exploits. Simple enough. 

if you think my mild posts are harassing you, boy you're in for a treat on the internet.

Stop. Just stop. Who are you that you're gonna tell me not to talk? Can you even prove that these are exploits? Have you even killed these bosses? I'll assume not, and you just let out your jealousy because of that screenshot I shared yesterday. These are obviously viable methods  and that's why Klei left them in, otherwise they would have been patched long ago.

[trinket_4]

how about we stop fighting and stay on topic? : )

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I don't know where you're getting this from.

Please don't white-knight Charlie Dark. They can speak for themselves.

I trigger when i read stupid things

[Viktor234]

1 hour ago, Charlie Dark said:

If these were exploits they would have been patched out a long time ago

Some kind of exploits need ages to be fixed, e.g. the Wortox exploit survived for more than a year till it got fixed.
Some kind of exploits need centurys to be fixed: There are certain exploits which also resulted from a missing line in the code and can even today be used in a gamebreaking way.

[Yuuko]

Hard no from me.  Bosses should be a consistent experience.  If someone joins a world they should know what they are getting into when they wake up toadstool or bee queen.  It would ruin the consistency of the game.  If I can beat dfly I shouldn't get blind sided by non-mod dfly that is completely different.

Players who are learning the game aren't helped by an "ez mode" of a boss.  All it does is drop the skill cap for noobs, and hinder their growth because why get better if you already have the rewards?  How do we know if we're really beating a boss?  What is the "real" bee queen?  Eventually the only "real" bee queen is the 1000xx ssj bee queen because there is no point in a "pro" making a video fighting any less...

It could really ruin what boss fights mean to the game.

 

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

Exploits shouldn't be relied upon. They can get fixed like the fuelweaver's bone cage did.

fact - in every video game the only question you can ask is whether it works or not.  The best speed runs in every game in the world includes every method glitch or not, to achieve the fastest play through.  Go watch speed run videos, you're going to find a lot of people glitching through walls, zooming through map barriers, and exploiting every thing they possibly can to get the perfect run.  How can you say exploits shouldn't be relied on when well respected world records rely on them?

Especially for a game with continued development like DST.  If the devs didn't want flingo to freeze bosses, or they didn't want bosses to be able to sleep, or get movement blocked, they would change it.  You know why AFW bone cage doesn't fail when you're near the edge?  Because the devs decided to change it.  You know what they didn't change?  Whatever BS you're ragging on someone for...

This is a sandbox survival game.  Like seriously - the majority of the game is centered around exploiting what the game gave you.  These games are literally made to be exploited in these ways.  If you don't like how another player does something, then go do it how you want instead.  Nothing another player does stops you from playing your own world by your own rules.

If the devs come back later and change something that makes a tactic non viable for a boss?  then I guess we'll deal with new tactics then.  One thing is for certain, there will be another way...

[Well-met]

15 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

How can you say exploits shouldn't be relied on when well respected world records rely on them?

probably because singleplayer games are a different matter than multiplayer games.

probably because nobody speedruns DST or is interested into doing it.

probably because those other games development have ended decades ago and will never get attention again.

probably because only the developer's intent matters in the end, and im sure no one at Klei designed bosses thinking their AI would get broken in X ways.

and finally, because when you talk about balance in a videogame, wheter its a thread asking about boss health or the mechanics themselves, exploits are completely out of the question for very obvious reasons (which might not seem so obvious apparently).

as to why Klei aren't fixing up other common exploits, nobody knows. It likely has something to do with avoiding outbursts and losing many players and consequent sales in the process. They fixed one of the ways to cheese fuelweaver aswell as some for crab king though so there's still hope.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Well-met said:

probably because nobody speedruns DST or is interested into doing it.

 

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, Well-met said:

probably because singleplayer games are a different matter than multiplayer games.

Single player or multi player people do what works.

Spoiler

 

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probably because nobody speedruns DST or is interested into doing it.

Funny... I get lots of results when I search youtube for dst speedrun...

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probably because those other games development have ended decades ago and will never get attention again.

So you're saying if the game is out of development that glitches are ok?  but if its in development... the devs can fix it if they don't like it...

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probably because only the developer's intent matters in the end, and im sure no one at Klei designed bosses thinking their AI would get broken in X ways.

Actually the developer's intent really doesn't matter.  On a philosophical level we can debate death of the author, but on a very real level the developers intent still doesn't matter because again... Regardless of whether they wanted it to work a certain way or not... If they weren't satisfied they could change it...  Also, who are you to say what they intended any more than me?  What if they literally DID think "hey, we should make the AI act as such so it can be exploited thusly"

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and finally, because when you talk about balance in a videogame, wheter its a thread asking about boss health or the mechanics themselves, exploits are completely out of the question for very obvious reasons (which might not seem so obvious apparently).

Nah - I hold firm to my position made in a separate post about boss difficulty.  If you're going to talk about how difficult bosses are you gotta include every method.  Otherwise you're stuck in a god of the gaps fallacy.

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You brought up exploits in the thread, don't try to throw that shade on someone else.  I replied to the original post AND to your post about exploits.  You, on the other hand, posted in the topic first and only about exploits without any provocation.

it's a forum bro. people talk. the way wheter players can solo bosses or not is completely on-topic here.

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Actually the developer's intent really doesn't matter.

yeah I think we're done here.

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, Well-met said:

yeah I think we're done here.

Many great things in our world happen without anyone intending them to...  Fighting game combos were literally accidents in early fighting games turned into features because the players liked and used them so much...  You would not be able to tell a SF1 or SF2:WW player they can't use a combo because it wasn't intended... lol

Also - I heavily edit my posts after making them because I'm a bit neurotic about forum communication.  Sorry about that last bit about bringing up exploits.  I changed it because that wasn't actually a proper response to what you said.  I was still editing for a while before refreshing the thread.  I shouldn't have said that part.

[Caochu]

Is planting a a houndius hootius, a lureplant bulb and waiting 20 minutes the real experience of the game, though ?

Is building 30 rabbits hutch and hide 15 minutes in a bush hat the real experience of the game, though ?

Is perma freezing and spamming F the real experience of the game, though ?

I don't care what you consider the "real experience", but if you do any of the listed one above, you just can't at the same time say things like "stop making the game easier". Bonus point if it is a strategy you didn't think of but got from Youtube or the forum.

What's the point for a solo player to have a 10-20 minutes fight with the same kitting pattern and calling it the true experience compared to just scaling the HP and making the fight 5-10 mn long like in DS ? If you kite well, you will even end up using the same resources amount. You are just gonna make the regular fight (Dragonfly, Toad) less tedious on the long run. There is no skills involved once you get the pattern, there is just whether you feel like doing the hit and run for 20 minutes or no. The fact that I feel often that it will be too boring to do for the 4th or 5th time is a kind of a red signal I think.

That's the kind of things that could be QOL actually and could change the perception of the game of many.

 

[Mike23Ua]

So instead of copying and pasting I’m just going to pick up here- Any video game that uses a glitch to speed run something should instantaneously be disqualified from being considered a legit Speed Run.

I have a love/hate relationship with any game that has ever come out since after the PS2, I LOVED the glitches in the Tony Hawk Proskater franchise, little things you could do back then to fall through the map or explore building interiors- But NOW days... they do these things called “Patching” games which makes me highly Iffy about buying the upcoming proskater Remaster... the glitches was part of what made the game series so memorable 

having said that- not ALL glitches are a fun & good thing Like that though, some can be game breaking.. something the developers never intended to happen could be exploited.

I want scaleable boss health specifically for my casual buddies who only bought this game to play it with me because I asked them to... and they are NOT into brutally hardcore survival simulators.

Is it honestly too hard to believe and accept that I want the game to be easy so me and my casual friends (who likely would’ve never touched the game if not for its unique charm and cast of characters) can play & enjoy boss content without becoming discouraged and completely off put by the game?

Is it ALSO too hard to believe that when playing completely alone and my casual friends are in bed & not online that I want a more hardcore survival simulator where every single day of staying alive is a challenge in its own right?
 

I mean honestly people... why do you think there’s an option to turn several bosses completely off to begin with? 
 

I have the choice of turning the boss off.. but not lowering the skill threshold required in enjoying battling it.

[TheGoldenDonut_]

No.

[Mike23Ua]

14 minutes ago, TheGoldenDonut_ said:

No.

And I will repeat myself- I have the option of turning the boss completely off.. but not lowering the skill threshold required in actually enjoying it.

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, Caochu said:

Is planting a a houndius hootius, a lureplant bulb and waiting 20 minutes the real experience of the game, though ?

Is building 30 rabbits hutch and hide 15 minutes in a bush hat the real experience of the game, though ?

Is perma freezing and spamming F the real experience of the game, though ?

Yes, they are really experiencing the game.  Its a sandbox survival game.  That's like asking if playing the game without combating anything is still playing dishonor, or if playing mill is really playing mtg.  Literally the theme of sandbox survival games is creativity and exploitation.

You don't have to use any strat you don't want to.  I don't play Wolfgang and that's my decision, I can't tell you how to play your game.  All arguments about how someone "should" play a game fall apart.  Its a god of the gaps playground.  Lets go down that rabbit hole with dfly:

dfly herself isn't such a bad fight but she spawns lavae that make the fight tough.  We could fight them, or we could use a game structure designed to impede the movement of mobs.  So we build a walled off square and we all huddle inside and bash her down.  Cheesing?  Its an in game structure, it has hit points, some mobs attack it and some don't.  Can't say we aren't using it as intended.  If the lavae were supposed to attack walls they would, the same as hounds do, but they don't...  Not that the devs couldn't change that if they wanted...  So now we're using walls, hard to say its cheesing when we're using game structures as intended.  End result is a fight against dfly without lavae.  Kinda like some players pick wolfgang to make the fight easier with his speed boost, damage boost, and super tankyness.

Next level - we're already using a wall, but we don't like the cramped arena.  Now we build the walls around the lavae pods instead.  When dfly spawns lavae they are all trapped in the pods while we fight the dfly away from them.  Cheesing yet?  We're using walls to obstruct monster movement, and while hounds attack walls lavae don't, so you can't really say this isn't an intended interaction since the devs could have done it a different way, yet this is the way they did do it.  Is this cheesing yet?  End result is the same, a fight against dfly without lavae.

Next level - we figure out pathing now.  lavae take the most direct route to a player and they ignore certain things like signs, statues, and lava ponds.  With this we're able to trim down the amount of walls we build to get to the fight quicker.  Is it cheesing to exploit enemy pathing?  games like monster hunter and dark souls are literally designed around exploiting ai pathing and attack patterns...  If you count how many hits you deal to to a boss before dodging and watching for tells for the next behavior you're exploiting the ai too.  So now we have a single straight wall that blocks most lavae.  Cheesing yet?  end result is the same.  A fight against dfly without lavae.

Now we want to use Winona catapults.  Its a crafted structure in game - are we not really "playing the game" if we're using a crafted structure for its intended purpose?  Is it not "as the developers intended" if we use the catapults they made for us?  They're stationary damage dealers, are we not supposed to use these against bosses that spawn in the same place time and again? lol  Cheese yet?  We could have picked Wolfgang for a damage increase, instead we picked Winona.  Maybe we use celestial portal to switch characters.  omg I wonder if you think that is cheese, did the devs give us the celestial portal without intending us to pick winona, build catapults, then switch to wolfgang and take out dfly that much quicker??!!!

All this without even entering into the second aspect of dfly that most people play around.  Her rage mode.  How many legit-hardcore-xxx-wolfgang-allskill-noscope-360 players do you see using a pan flute to cancel rage mode?  Using a panflute to sidestep rage mode is little different from crafting walls to sidestep lavae.  That's really the bottom line.  The game gives us multiple answers to *both* problems, including fighting through it if we want.

At what point can you say something is cheese or "not as intended" when the game gives us walls, gives us turrets, the ability to switch characters, the ability to revive from death, ect?  How can you say we're not experiencing the game when we played through spring to get those lureplants, cleared dclops, guardian, and ruins to make that shootius, cleared shadow pieces, got all the way to the atrium, and then blocked him off with a lure plant while we watch him die to structures the game gave us to do exactly what we're doing...?  lol

 

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Bonus point if it is a strategy you didn't think of but got from Youtube or the forum.

This is the biggest BS line ever.  Humans didn't get where we are because we forced everyone to come up with every idea themselves.  Most of our lives as children is specifically spent bypassing this...  Why wouldn't we share information to achieve a better result together in games?  The primary reason people come to game forums is to get answers to questions they haven't figured out yet, and from my experience people absolutely love sharing things they have figured out with everyone else.  That doesn't mean their later progress is disqualified because they didn't come up with every single thing they do in a game themselves.  Some people enjoy figuring things out for themselves, some people enjoy resourcing to get the optimum plays, and none of their decisions impact you at all.

 

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So instead of copying and pasting I’m just going to pick up here- Any video game that uses a glitch to speed run something should instantaneously be disqualified from being considered a legit Speed Run.

So... gl with that - from historic games to modern games, exploits and glitches are part of it.  Maybe you should go watch some speed runs to see what they're about because not only are glitches and exploits a key to many speed runs, there is a very large element of skill there too.  There are people who also do speed runs "glitch free" or whatever because people play how they want.  Neither side invalidates the other.

Spoiler

Here is a breakdown of classic mario speed runs.  Its a great insight into what makes a great speed run.