Are atmo suits kinda op?

[crbd115]

So I saw this mod a little while ago that "nerfs" the atmo suit. Based on the description it reduces the suits O2 storage to 5kg (from 75kg). Which equals out to be 50 seconds of use (impacted by mouth breather/divers lungs). An atmo suit normally can last for 750 seconds. A cycle lasts for 600 seconds, and of those 600 seconds your duplicant usually spends 75 seconds sleeping, and then some amount on downtime based on your schedule setup. So most of the time they would only need about 450 seconds if they spent all their work time in them. I never really thought about this until I saw this mod. Then after, I started to think about how my game would be different if I had to build around this mod,and the more i thought, "Are atmo suits kinda op?" I'm not saying they are op and I know some people get up in arms about this stuff. Which is why I'm not saying this should be a thing just that its maybe something we should consider as an idea. With this mod you would really only be able to use atmo suits set up outside specific areas. For example the slime biome, or oil biome or space, and you wouldn't want to just strip mine out everything right way either.
From my own experience I usually just get them as early as possible and build around the idea that I can seal off my base from everything if I have atmo suits set up behind an airlock. Then I don't have to worry about controlling gases, temperature, or germs outside my main base whatsoever. That seems like a lot that just gets thrown to the side just because of one piece of equipment. Maybe atmo suits just make the game to easy the way they are.  I know people talk about "difficulty" settings in terms of how much food their duplicants eat, or morale, or stress, but in all honesty I don't really consider those in terms of difficulty more just time sinks.

Increasing hunger just increases sizes of farms, and how long duplicants have to spend eating. Morale and stress kind of go hand in hand and are easy enough to solve through similar methods within the game. Better food, better art, great halls, nature reserves, and etc, but are still solved in the same way usually. In my opinion, the only real difficulty change to me was felt when they made the forest biome as a starting biome for some of the asteroids. That really took getting used to and changed the way I played the game quite a bit. The different asteroids and their different strategies for survival felt more like a change in difficulty then changing how much duplicants eat, or morale they need.  
I haven't tried this mod yet, I was waiting until I finished my current asteroid but now I have. I'm mostly considering if I should use just this mod, or if I should add in darkness and the islands mod. I'm only posting this because I thought it was an interesting idea for people to consider that maybe atmo suits are currently kinda "op". 
Here is the link if anyone else is curious.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2036328098

[Gurgel]

I don't think they are overpowered at all. I usually build them late, sometimes far later than having explored most of the map. And they come with penalties, like suddenly you need reliable power and oxygen supplies and checkpoints. 

Now, there are a few things you cannot reasonably do without them, like any real construction in hot environments or the space biome. A magma-biome you cannot even explore without them, I tried. 

My take is that some people are just masochists and want everything to be as hard as possible and then proceed to thump their chests when they succeed, like doing things the hardest possible way was some kind of special accomplishment. I think limiting suits would be a path to failure for ONI, because it also strongly limits how you can approach some things. For example, for the magma-biome with 50 second-suits , you would end up either taking forever or you need to cool the whole thing down before you can go in. Neither adds any gameplay value that I can see but, but removes a lot of it.

[crbd115]

4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

My take is that some people are just masochists and want everything to be as hard as possible and then proceed to thump their chests when they succeed, like doing things the hardest possible way was some kind of special accomplishment. I think limiting suits would be a path to failure for ONI, because it also strongly limits how you can approach some things. For example, for the magma-biome with 50 second-suits , you would end up either taking forever or you need to cool the whole thing down before you can go in. Neither adds any gameplay value that I can see but, but removes a lot of it.

What I am talking about with this mod is rather then having your duplicants in atmo suits 90% of the day (basically if they are outside your base they are in a suit) you would set up checkpoints outside these dangerous areas. 50 seconds should be enough time to move into an area and do their job then leave most of the time. I'm not saying this is for difficulty sake, I'm saying that atmo suits kinda just cut through most of the games challenges like a hot knife through butter, which is fine but they also are able to be used longer then your duplicants can even stay awake.
The way I see it in the base game there is no reason not to rush them. Its easy to set up a reed fiber farm either from dreckos or thimble reed, power isnt that hard either if you have a hatch farm which covers your food too, and oxygen is just setting up the normal self powered electrolyzer builds that pretty much everyone does. I've even done it with just a gas pump with a filter next to a algae oxidizer as a simple temporary set up.  

[Sasza22]

I don`t think it`s the amount of oxygen they store that`s too powerful. I think it`s their versatility. I mean they aren`t too strong in anything they are used for. The problem is that they can be used for everything from germ protection to space exploration. You can do fine having dupes using the same suits for everything including everyday tasks.

Personally i`d prefer if there wer different types of suits for different enviroments.

[crbd115]

3 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I don`t think it`s the amount of oxygen they store that`s too powerful. I think it`s their versatility. I mean they aren`t too strong in anything they are used for. The problem is that they can be used for everything from germ protection to space exploration. You can do fine having dupes using the same suits for everything including everyday tasks.

Personally i`d prefer if there wer different types of suits for different enviroments.

I like the idea of their being different suits besides the base suit and jet suit but other then maybe something that could survive in magma, or maybe taking away the ability to walk at normal speed in water and making a suit for under water i can't think of much that would be worth it. Plus no one really can use the jet suits without tanking their fps anyway. 

[Gurgel]

4 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

What I am talking about with this mod is rather then having your duplicants in atmo suits 90% of the day (basically if they are outside your base they are in a suit) you would set up checkpoints outside these dangerous areas. 50 seconds should be enough time to move into an area and do their job then leave most of the time. I'm not saying this is for difficulty sake, I'm saying that atmo suits kinda just cut through most of the games challenges like a hot knife through butter, which is fine but they also are able to be used longer then your duplicants can even stay awake.

Ok, for some play styles I agree that can be a concern. For my personal one, it is not. The challenges to explore the map without suits are not that bad. I did this for at least two Oasise maps as well. I did use the approach you describe wayyyy back and found it mostly tedious but not difficult. That is about the worst characteristic a game-mechanic can have.

9 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

The way I see it in the base game there is no reason not to rush them.

There is not and I am not doing it. But nerving them will not add to the game at all IMO. And if some people want to rush suits, why not let them and then have the current benefits and annoyances they come with?

[crbd115]

Just now, Gurgel said:

And if some people want to rush suits, why not let them and then have the current benefits and annoyances they come with?

I'm not saying there should be anything wrong with rushing suits at all, I'm not even saying this mod should be made apart of the game. I'm just talking about people considering how it would change the play style of the game and if it would be good or bad. In my opinion right now there really is no annoyances that come with the suits because the one and only downside is the athletics debuff which is overcome by getting the exosuit skill. Which is usually pretty simple since most of the time you want to give your duplicants the increased strength and athletics that go with that part of the tree anyway.

 

6 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

The challenges to explore the map without suits are not that bad. I did this for at least two Oasise maps as well. I did use the approach you describe wayyyy back and found it mostly tedious but not difficult. That is about the worst characteristic a game-mechanic can have.

That's kind of why I'm even talking about this idea is because I don't think atmo suits are that neccessary and if they were nerfed it wouldnt do anything other then move them from being the answer to everything to the answer to the things they are strong at.
I feel this would be easier to explain if I had pictures of a colony which I will try to add when I have gotten to that point on my new asteroid I'm making now.

[Gurgel]

11 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

I feel this would be easier to explain if I had pictures of a colony which I will try to add when I have gotten to that point on my new asteroid I'm making now.

I will wait for that. 

[reccurentz]

45 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I don`t think it`s the amount of oxygen they store that`s too powerful. I think it`s their versatility. I mean they aren`t too strong in anything they are used for. The problem is that they can be used for everything from germ protection to space exploration. You can do fine having dupes using the same suits for everything including everyday tasks.

Personally i`d prefer if there wer different types of suits for different enviroments.

What about a upgrade system. Each upgrade allows you to go to other biomes. You need to search the map for geyers or materials to upgrade to access other biomes. This should slow the game down a bit and make people invest in their starting base more.

Right now, it is get atmos suite go to oil biome, GG. Everything else is kinda pointless, since ever problem is trivial once you get oil, plastic and steel. 

[Sasza22]

9 hours ago, reccurentz said:

What about a upgrade system. Each upgrade allows you to go to other biomes. You need to search the map for geyers or materials to upgrade to access other biomes. This should slow the game down a bit and make people invest in their starting base more.

That`s an intersting idea. As for now you actually don`t need atmo suits for most biomes. But i can imagine the basic version being just an air filter preventing slimleung exposure. Level 2 being just an oxygen tank with no protection then further levels adding more thermal protection or even sunburn prevention.

[psusi]

I don't know if they are OP, but only being able to hold 50 seconds of oxygen is stupid.  Dupe puts on suit, spends 25 seconds walking from the checkpoint to the job site, oops, he's out of time and has to run back to get out of the suit and didn't get any work done.

[Lacost]

Are atmosuits OP?

Yes, Yes they are.

 

As already pointed out they are the answer to almost everything regarding Dupe survival. From penalty free use of liquid airlocks to survival in Magma, they do everything. They are even a mobile toilet if you go that far. And this can be achieved really, really early in the game, shorting a lot of gameplay mechanics.

That being said, atmosuits are vital for the lategame when you have grown out of the survival phase and just want to get work done as quick and efficient as possible. Having to install a checkpoint for every single vacuum build would just be tedious and simply not fun. So decreasing the oxygen supply is definitely the wrong way to go.

 

I would balance them as followed:

1) Remove the ability to shower, eat, using a toilets, using most recreational buildings and sleep (except narcoleptic sleep). Or remove all room morale bonuses if Dupes use them whilst in atmosuits.

2) Increasing morale penalty for extended times in atmo suits mirroring the decor system for average suit wearing times. This of course only works if Klei would finally fix the morale system to make it challenging (--> looking at you great hall room bonus)

3) Slimelung will be contracted through oxygen supplied to atmosuit stations.

4) Supplied oxygen needs to be temperate so that an electrolyzer setup needs active O2 cooling. (Currently the heat is just deleted)

 

I also like the idea of progressing atmo suits, where the first stage is just for slimelung and later stages would be the current iteration of atmosuits with sunblock and whatnot. This could be tied to increasingly more expensive recipies (plastic, space materials etc.) to make them a hard to get one time investment with great benefits. This would make the early game more diverse whilst not impacting the lategame with artificial and tedious life support actions.

[psusi]

4 minutes ago, Lacost said:

From penalty free use of liquid airlocks to survival in Magma, they do everything.

Really?  The soggy feet debuff doesn't seem to do anything to me these days.  As long as you have 1 more morale than the dupe needs ( which is *easy* ) that negates any stress they get from having wet feet.  And I thought that magma was plenty hot enough to still cause scalding damage even while wearing an atmo suit?

8 minutes ago, Lacost said:

They are even a mobile toilet if you go that far

Not really.  They will only go in the suit if they can not reach a proper bathroom, and that causes a huge stress ( besides the loss of 2 morale from using a proper bathroom ) and then when they take off the suit, you need mesh tiles and a pump to catch the pee.  I miss the days when the bladder meter was just frozen while wearing an atmo suit.

13 minutes ago, Lacost said:

1) Remove the ability to shower, eat, using a toilets, using most recreational buildings and sleep (except narcoleptic sleep). Or remove all room morale bonuses if Dupes use them whilst in atmosuits.

That would make sense.  It is a little silly that you can set it up so they only take off the suit to sleep and even that's just to give the suit a moment to recharge.

 

[crbd115]

4 hours ago, psusi said:

I don't know if they are OP, but only being able to hold 50 seconds of oxygen is stupid.  Dupe puts on suit, spends 25 seconds walking from the checkpoint to the job site, oops, he's out of time and has to run back to get out of the suit and didn't get any work done.

thats why with this mod you put it next to job sites or put airlocks outside dangerous areas and suits outside that airlock rather then having them run from your base to everywhere. 

[psusi]

Just now, crbd115 said:

thats why with this mod you put it next to job sites or put airlocks outside dangerous areas and suits outside that airlock rather then having them run from your base to everywhere. 

Even if you let your dupes run up to the border with the space biome before putting on the suit, they can still easily spend 25 seconds just walking through the space biome to get to where the job is.  Are you seriously supposed to drywall up, liquid lock, and pressurize all of the space biome and keep moving the atmo suit docks only to where the new edge is every cycle or two?  That would be absurd.  750 seconds may be too long, but 50 is way too short.

[crbd115]

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

Even if you let your dupes run up to the border with the space biome before putting on the suit, they can still easily spend 25 seconds just walking through the space biome to get to where the job is.  Are you seriously supposed to drywall up, liquid lock, and pressurize all of the space biome and keep moving the atmo suit docks only to where the new edge is every cycle or two?  That would be absurd.  750 seconds may be too long, but 50 is way too short.

I mean I didn't make the mod, I'm not saying 50 is too short or too long. This is literally just talking about the fact that atmo suits kinda just let you tear through the games challenges single handedly. I'd be fine with a longer time I just think it might make the game a bit more interesting if it wasn't always the best tactic to just rush atmo suits, lock down your main base and the game is practically solved at that point. 

[psusi]

5 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I'd be fine with a longer time I just think it might make the game a bit more interesting if it wasn't always the best tactic to just rush atmo suits, lock down your main base and the game is practically solved at that point. 

Yea, that does seem a little silly to me, which is why I've never done it.  I always just put them at the border to the space biome, the oil biome, and entry to areas heated by geysers.

[SpreadsheetGamr]

I agree with Lacost and I think that's the best general direction - atmo suits need some more consequences.  A lot of the game's mechanics are bypassed when people build atmo suit docks at the bedroom exit.

I'd like to see a small variety of suits for different circumstances.  Especially one for higher temperatures that could be more bulky.

One thing not touched on is that wearing atmosuits prevents dupes from creating CO2.  That's another avenue for possible penalties, a low-tech suit might emit CO2 while a high tech one might bottle it and empty at the dock.

[psusi]

7 minutes ago, SpreadsheetGamr said:

One thing not touched on is that wearing atmosuits prevents dupes from creating CO2.  That's another avenue for possible penalties, a low-tech suit might emit CO2 while a high tech one might bottle it and empty at the dock.

The amount of CO2 that dupes produce is inconsequential anyhow.

[SpreadsheetGamr]

17 minutes ago, psusi said:

The amount of CO2 that dupes produce is inconsequential anyhow.

The implication is that it would mess with building atmospherically controlled rooms, f ex. vacuums.

[psusi]

12 minutes ago, SpreadsheetGamr said:

The implication is that it would mess with building atmospherically controlled rooms, f ex. vacuums.

Oh God that would suck big time.  Though I suppose if there were multiple tiers of atmo suits and only the entry level one had that problem, it might not be OK.

[storm6436]

Yeah, I somewhat agree, I somewhat don't.  Part of the problem is how do you make them less OP without adding unfun interstitial steps or otherwise diluting the game?  Getting out into space really would require something like that. 

Toning down the O2 a bit is decent enough I guess, but honestly, it feels like there should be different types of suits...  Something like an isolation suit with a Scotts pack for disease isolation (ie. think CDC lab moon suit), one that's intended for vac, and one intended for extreme environments.

Figure you could style that sort of like how some of the previous tech works out, suit 1 is good up to say 55c, requires plastic,  The vac suit is rated up to, say 235-250c, and the hostile environment suit placed at where the current suit is.

[Dosephshih]

I think it is not OP at the beginning, as it would reduce the running speed a lot at first. It is just like in reality.

So we may only put some small the atmo suit before critical point of danger. However, when most of your dupes get the training and high althelets, the only drawback of atmo-suit disappear.

However again, at this point, your base is usually big and it may not be funny to focus on the atmo suit planning, we just forget the micro management of the atmo suit and pay our attention to rocket planning, magma use, etc. 

Overall, I think the current design is appropriate for general players, but may not be challenging enough to advanced players.

[TheMule]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:26 AM, crbd115 said:

What I am talking about with this mod is rather then having your duplicants in atmo suits 90% of the day

In my current playthrough I'm experimenting with 100%. At first I've reduced the base to the washroom only. This reduces the number of docks too (but not the amount of O2 you have to provide them with).

I've seen full bases with one dock per dup. But if you think about it, you only need one per dup inside the base. If you reduce your base to the washroom, it's limited inherently by the number of lavatories. You may want one or two spare suits that are already recharged and ready to go. So for 2 lavatories, it would be 3-4 docks, 1-2 loaded with the spare suit.

Now, I've build another base, at the entrance there are double sided docks, meaning they are connected to a checkpoint both left and right. Dups are forced in (washroom is on the other side) but it's one way only. All other doors on the base are set to exit only. Basicly when they enter the "base", they jump into a new suit, then go the the bathroom, eat, sleep, go to work all in the newly refreshed suit. They literally spend a few seconds outside a suit. (*)

Now I'm having issues in keeping them busy, they tend to idle in the docks room (again I'm experimenting with the smallest possible number of docks) and that causes problems. I solved that with a gym but I'm not sure I'm fond of the idea.

The base isn't insulated already and there's still lot of O2 around but they idea is to keep all the base in chlorine (just for the sake of it). Even the suit docks (they can hold breath while changing the suit).

So yeah suits have quirks, but yeah they're kinda OP. It's true that a setup like mine has more than a few ways to go south (power, oxygen).

(*) Edit: and they can exit the base from any door instead of the entrance, which may or may not save a tiny bit of time. Also, you don't need one dock per dup but enough to allow smooth walk through of all the dups. And, oxygen piping becomes important, the first docks (coming in) are quite a bottleneck, they are the busiest.

[Steve8]

Some things about atmo suits always annoyed me. Like being able to feed them hot oxygen without issues. Or dupes being able to eat in them. That should be changed. But they also aren't huge issues to overcome and won't make them less of a no-brainer.

Limiting the activities than can be performed in suits and some penalties for extended suit use could work