storm6436

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About storm6436

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  1. I'm inclined to agree. I got the achievement in the current game I'm playing without inspecting a single ruin. Pretty sure it was when I started tearing out pieces to make room for a building, too.
  2. I don't remember off the top of my head if you can see all the attributes applied to wild critters or not... but it would make sense to me that if they were overpopulated for the space they were in, it would count as confined/cramped, thus pausing egg generation. *shrug* It's 3AM here so take this comment with a salt lick or three.
  3. [Game Update] - 372041

    I'll need to load up when I can to see how much this addresses my experience with the performance optimization patch immediately preceding this one. User experience feedback for previous patch: Context: Cycle 450ish, 90%+ map revealed, 19 dupes Computer = potato, er, great for 5-6 years ago: AMD FX-9590, 32 GB DDR3, ATI R9 NANO, 1 TB Samsung Evo SSD -- No overclocking Good News(TM): Average framerate ~18-21 fps -> ~29-30 fps Bad News(TM): While average framerate increased quite a bit, it introduced a fair amount of semi-periodic frame jerking. Haven't quite figured out the x+/-y yet so I'm wondering if it's something like shuffled garbage collection or maybe a complication from the streaming optimizations. The stutters aren't super bad, just irritating. There is maybe a tenth to a quarter second jerk every 5-15ish seconds. Sorry, I'd be more specific but I didn't get to fiddle with it long for much the same reason I haven't been able to check the current patch out yet. I'm not a "(Max_FPS -1) !? OMG!" type.so 15-20 fps was perfectly acceptable and I'm ecstatic at getting 30 on late stage colony.
  4. Nice. Hope that map keeps working out for you. I generally take a lot longer to get there, usually about cycle 175ish, but most of that is due to the fact that I basically decide up front where my industrial stuff is going to end up going, and spent the first 50 cycles digging out and insulting the base proper before moving on to strip mining the hell out of what is going to be my industrial area. From a timeline snapshot perspective, it doesn't look like I accomplish much for the first... 80-100 cycles other than the mentioned insulation... and then suddenly *poof* inside 20 cycles I have every facility except the permanent bulk cooler and oil. mostly because at that point I've set up my temporary cooler and I'm using it to make sure I don't boil myself to death spamming ceramics. Oh, it might not be terribly efficient, but early game I usually do the CO2/Cl pits and H2 ceiling collection, but since one or both usually covers where I want to go, I end up with temporary reservoirs so I don't waste the "Scamper for air" time you mentioned.
  5. One of the other things I noticed is it seems any time you have tasks on the far side of a exo-suit airlock, it seems like some additional cost is assigned to everything behind it, effectively bumping them down in priority. I'd never looked into it to verify if that was actually happening and if so, by how much, though. YMMV.
  6. Not quite correct. Any object colder than the environment can be a heat sink, which is what your assertion is actually describing, regardless of its thermal properties. Insulator, conductor, doesn't matter, the question then becomes how fast you can put energy into it and get it out if you so choose, as that rate determines what one can actually use it for.. Still, heat sinks are not the same thing as an insulator. You would have noted if I'd made a screen shot of it that the temp shift plates were precisely the same temperature as the air they were in at the start. The fact that I have the building option check-marked does sort of imply that though since that sets building temps when you paint over them.. The point being is that 1 tile at either end is the source of flux while the opposite side is the measurement point. Provided the experiment is configured correctly, what happens in the middle is largely irrelevant, only the end results matter, as all we're doing is classifying insulator vs conductor, and we're checking if the height affects flux rate or not, all in an isolated system. Now, I could add up the change in temperature on the relative test point convert that into watts then divide by the number of squares used... and that would give me t_flux. Doing the same for the control group above would give me a baseline for that particular size, then dividing the plate flux by the baseline gives us a number. If it's less than 1 and left in a fraction (ie. 1/r), then oddly enough r=R, where R is the real life R-value you see tacked on to insulation. It literally tells you how good at slowing down temperature movement a thing is. Obviously if your goal is to slow down heat, having a number larger than 1 means its speeding things up, not slowing them down. Still, I could, in fact take those three different fluxes, run this experiment a number of times to get sufficient number of points, and use the accumulation of data to generate an accepted R-value for dirt tempshift plates. Overall, as configured, T_cold is the environment, not T_hot, but ultimately that wouldn't matter. Because SHCs in ONI are treated as constants and we don't deal with enthalpies of vaporization or condensation, the system and the math are symmetric. Setting the left most or the right most tile to whatever hot or cold temp you decide to use while setting the other 4 to the opposite temperature will not change the results. Measured thermal flux in the dirt shift plate system is lower than the control group, therefore when normalized, T_flux < 1. That meets the definition of insulator. If you'd like I can go re-run the same thing with a refined metal or diamond plate to show that normalized T_flux with those is >1 and as such T_flux(insulator)<1<T_flux(conductor) holds true in ONI just the same as it does in real life. I will point out that while this proves only insulating action on dirt tiles, it doesn't tell us everything we'd like to know.. On one hand, because the neutronium is non-conductive, this only tells us about shift tiles interacting with gasses, so nothing on "What happens if we place a plate near a wall. Similarly it doesn't directly tell us anything about conductors, but one can draw some more than reasonable assumptions from the data nonetheless.. As a second phase test, putting in a layer of insulated tiles with neutronium outside those would help highlight a number of potential issues for deployment. Suffice it to say, it seems likely that spacing your plates to where they don't overlap with insulated walls is probably the smartest course of action. That said, it does highlight a somewhat obvious reason why you would put them next to a wall and a potential non-obvious use as well.: The obvious? You're intending on conducting through the wall. It seems quite possible doing so would effectively augment the thermal conductance of metal tiles significantly. The less-obvious case is, oddly enough, the same idea but in reverse: one might be able to use high conductance shift plates to push heat into insulated tiles much faster than would be otherwise possible, and use them as heat sinks. This would make heat deletion much easier for people trying to dump heat into elements with lower thermal conductivities and then spacing them, but in that regard unless one has a massive surplus of said elements because for the most part, there's a decent correlation between low conductivity and low specific heat on a gram->gram basis. Still, it does suggest that one could, if one were patient enough, design a system where one uses large insulated blocks as thermal batteries, and seeing as the insulated materials aren't terribly eager to lose the heat without the plates, the rate of loss on these thermal batteries would be fairly low if one could come up with a satisfactory way to toggle the feed on/off. Other than vaccum, only construction/deconstruction comes to mind.
  7. Generally speaking, when one mistakes (purposefully or not) an explanation of the both the real world physics and possible ways the simulation implements them as "bombastic nonsense and irrelevant storytelling", we can't. Given the screenshots I posted of the in-game experiment worked out exactly as predicted (to 1st order), one might conclude that perhaps all that "nonsense" wasn't as irrelevant as you asserted.
  8. I wouldn't be surprised because I've read quite a bit on this forum since I started playing. Unfortunately, even though one would hope that people with a "math/physics/engineering academic background" would understand the physics, that's seldom the case and my original statement still applies (See below.) Small temperature gradient test to minimize amount of time (ie. I literally have to step out the door in 3 minutes)... but...Closed system, 1kg/tile O2, dirt tempshift tile. T_hot=298.15K, T_cold=273.15K Results? Dirt Tempshift plate retards thermal gradient flow, therefore it's an insulator. Yes, there are subtleties in using them, I don't have time to expand... but it is an insulator, it just doesn't have the same R-value as insulated tiles do.
  9. It's different for the reasons I outlined in my first few paragraphs. People, in general, do not understand the physics involved. In terms of real life, literally everything made of bosonic matter conducts heat, including insulation, it's only a matter of how quickly. A lot of people think "Insulation is what keeps your house warm in the winter" and they're incorrect. Your furnace keeps your house warm. Insulation only slows the heat leaving which means you don't have to run the furnace constantly. Similarly the same thing applies to A/C in the summer. All insulation is, is a layer of material with a lower thermal conductivity. That's it. This might be helpful. It's worth noting what most people "feel" as temperature is actually a rate of change. dU/dS, to be specific. change of kinetic energy per unit entropy changed. Basically, if it takes twice as long for the far side to reach equilibrium, the shift plate is acting as insulation. Anything that slows it down is an insulator. If it takes half as long, the shift plate is acting as a conductor. That we have some materials that don't move heat at all is a result of the temp clamping, not their thermal conductivity. Worth noting, there are a few ways to calculate heat flux in a per tick system. The assumption that diagonals aren't calculated directly on a per tile basis comes from the fact that you can have a 300C oil biome tile diagonal from a 0C ice biome (and insulated tiles on the off diagonals and it doesn't clobber the ice. This changes if you stick a plate in the corner... so it seems reasonable then that tile-to-tile transfers are vertical/horizontal only. As for the per tick lag, there are a number of ways one can write a working temp engine, the 1-tick lag bit is the simplest that doesn't involve circular references and fits the diagonal observation above. They could also direct the thermal input into the tile in general, splitting it amongst all valid targets at the same time. If they do that, I haven't seen any posts saying if the distribution is weighted or not. That was one of the things I was going to look at later this week to figure out exactly how they're doing it.
  10. Question: What's outside your squares? Just making sure because if it's not vacuum then you don't have a closed system. While that doesn't necessarily introduce a big delta, said difference between what we think the results are and what they actually are is non-zero, potentially non-ignorable as well. Okay, so, I'm going to do my best to avoid math with this explanation as, well, text (specifically forum text, with all it's HTML non-LaTex goodness) is *not* a good medium for what I'd like to say... and to be fair, I don't really have time to type out the full thing anyway, which would mean trying to squeeze most of a semester of Statistical Mechanics into a single post on top of trying to do derivations to put it in a form applicable to the quantized length used in ONI... eh. I'll throw in some stuff for the educational value, but I'll try to keep it brief. Most people do not understand thermal physics nearly as well as they think they do. Part of that is because they also don't understand what heat really is, nor do they have a firm understanding of what atoms are or how they react. Similarly, things like Specific Heat Capacity (SHC) and the like do not mean what most thinks they do. That might sound insulting or arrogant to some, and for that I apologize, but it's a statement made from observation and from a position of actually having done enough stat mech and quantum to make my eyes bleed. Educational note: In real life, things like SHC are not linear. They're also a function of temperature. ONI treats it like a constant, just like most people do because in the regimes we're used to living in, it's more or less a constant. (ie. between -20F and 120F) ... but again, in the temperature regimes we're running steam gens in the game, it's not. (Actual SHC values for water). As applicable to the game? Well, you'd need to be familiar with linear algebra to make solving it "easy" however the easiest way of looking at this is as it's presented in the game: a series of boxes. Each tile is its own box, each layer is it's own box... so for every tile you see visible, there's actually a number of boxes "behind" it that have the various other things "in the tile" inside them. This is partially why there's issues with background and foreground buildings conflicting, etc. So, the change in temperature, baseline formula, at its highest level, is a series of summations, but the core function is little different from real life's Q=m*c*dT. How the interactions between the layers are defined (or rather were defined at a specific game version) can be found here. Granted, it's in DTUs but functionally, it's not terribly different aside from the inclusion of dt (time slice). I'll point out that having the timeslice in there does mean the answers generated will necessarily vary from what you'd expect in real life depending on if you're playing at 1x, 2x, 3x, or whatever. That's a numerical artifact of the simulation working in tics, thus time itself is quantized. Without continuous flow, you end up with some oddities if the right conditions are met. For a single tile of gas, it's internally sourced temperature change is a summation of all the changes for each layer behind it. It's external change is, as far as I remember, the summation of the same equation for all neighboring tiles. What I don't remember is if neighboring is determined as 1 tile vertically and horizontally or if it transfers diagonally as well. I don't believe it does, which would mean that any diagonal heat transfer is technically phase lagged by 1 tick, provided they're doing 1 thermal pass per tick -- otherwise, you could certainly get diagonals by multiple passes per tick even with x/y-only transfers provided the subsequent passes handle tile-to-tile transfers, not just tile-to-other-layer transfers. The latter seems most likely to be the implementation. To the point where this gets ultimately relevant is that for gas or solids in a tile any neighboring shift plates (1 tile, all directions) count as being in in the background tile layer for said gas. This complicates things and leads to some counter-intuitive results. Suxkar highlighted one of them, which is to say that it does screw with how one figures insulated tiles would work... because outside of odd circumstances, one never has something else in the tile with an insulated tile, so all those extra summations for "stuff in same tile" are zero. With an adjacent tempshift plate, it's not. Other conditions can be found on the interactions link I posted in the paragraph before last. Unfortunately, without a fair bit of work I don't have time for, meshing all the rules into a coherent singular formula isn't something something we have. If we had one, it'd be as "simple" as throwing initial conditions and the system's basic topology of the system into it and then solving directly for relevant answers... but, we can do a simple thought experiment now (and I'll probably sandbox it out when I have time later this week and post results if nobody beats me to it.) Keeping this simple to keep it short: Take a 1 tile tall section of space, make it 5 tiles wide, lined with neutronium (for zero heat transfer) Set all the gasses the left most column to some temperature T1 and all the gasses in the right most column to temperature T2. By default, if you let time run forward, after a certain time we'll call t_e, the system will reach equilibrium and have the same temperature everywhere. If all the gasses are the same gas, then that equilibrium will be T1+T2/2. If not, things get a fair bit more complicated, and t_e certainly shifts, but the final result should be a weighted average where one multiplies the starting temps by the relevant SHC. (ie. [SHC1*T1+SHC2*T2)/2]) Running the same experiment with a tempshift tile in the middle, necessarily means t_e is not the same time. You've added mass to the system, so it will certainly weight things. (*physics nerd smirk*) So, energy transfer from left to right works almost exactly the same... almost. time slice 1: 1 DTU enters tile 2. Raising the temperature of everything in it. This should mean that 1 DTU is split between the building and the gas. time slice 2+: Gas: Less than 1 DTU enters tile 2, a portion of that is pushed to the next tile, etc. Shiftplate: For tiles its temperature is colder than, it pulls a portion of the heat entering the tile and a portion of the heat in the tile. For tiles it's hotter than, it pushes a portion of its heat into. I got curious and built a spreadsheet to simulate this but it's buggy at the moment. I'll have to finish it later to get accurate results, but the preliminary shows that a dirt shift plate does, in fact, slow the spread of heat, which makes it an insulator. Fair caution on taking that the final word though, whatever typo I didn't catch in the code is adding about 1.7 DTUs per cycle (600 1 second time slices) to the system. Which is slightly larger than the temperature difference between the two simulations at the end of 600 time slices. Still a good chance fixing the bug might wipe that out, but it's certainly suggestive. I'll fix the spreadsheet... or just load up the sandbox and do it in-game when I get the time, probably Thursday.
  11. I was actually getting ready to post something similar. Thanks. And in cases when you're not above 327c which will be the vast majority of the time, dirt's still better. I don't know about you, but I try not to make a habit of using substandard materials when I don't need to. Except it's not. What makes insulation insulation is its ability to buffer heat, effectively stalling heat transfer. Does a tempshift plate match an actual insulated tile? No but not every type of insulation has the same R value. And speaking of which, thanks for providing an example of a material that sounds good for plates but isn't. At 84% of the heat capacity and 1/3 the thermal conductivity of igneous, it's basically useless. Any moving gasses will pass on through with very little interaction due to the low thermal conductivity, and for every joule of energy applied, its temp goes up 1.25 degrees where igneous jumps just 1.
  12. IIRC, dirt is better than igneous for insulating tempshifts. Same conductivity, higher specific heat.
  13. Yeah, it's kinda overkill and done to produce O2 for dupes, not H2, but this "works." I'd need to record the duty cycle of the 2nd H2 generator, I could probably tell you exactly how much hydrogen it is producing, but it's not the rated 112g/s. By the numbers, this setup should have a 210 g/s demand while supplying 224 g/s , but it certainly doesn't. Next time the automated gen kicks in, I'll keep an eye on the consumption rate and update. Also, contemplating expanding the upper/lower chamber to be even with the middle and seeing if the increased flow availability helps. As it stands, the previous incarnation of this setup only kept sufficient space open for the top/bottom pumps. That extra two tiles does seem to have increased H2 yield.
  14. Jumbo X smart kJ waste

    That's it. Pretty sure that's an artifact from much earlier in the game's development. I *vaguely* remember a massive "bonus" being applied somewhere in the formulas and that they basically hid it away by jumping J->DTU.
  15. Jumbo X smart kJ waste

    They're probably worried that new players would get confused seeing joules referenced for both electrical energy and heat. Most people are blissfully unaware that all heat is is disordered energy. Ah, the joys of watching heads explode in100-200 level physics classes... the good old days.