Game breaking Update

[watermelen671]

21 minutes ago, Ambaire said:

Except for the people who had automation wires running over their pipe vents, unaware that all pipe vents would be forcibly changed to the automation type.

I mean...you are made aware of the changes as soon as you load an old save: 

And this sort of thing is inevitably going to happen, you're asking for either the players to be precognizant, or the devs to have retroactively make the wires not able to go behind the vents.

It's a lose-lose situation, and something that's going to happen regardless. All you can really ask is for the devs to lets us know, and adapt. It's really not that hard to build an automation bridge over the vents, just take the L and move on.

9 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

Somehow ended up being lucky enought to evade all those missfortunes almost effortlessly. Moved to Win10 only recenlty, by my own will.

You really had to go out of your way to do that though. And that still doesn't negate the fact that literally millions of users were forced to update without their consent or knowledge.

8 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

And some people are angry about that, so it does not really show this practice as a good one. Well, if the limit the scope of analogy to Microsofts policy for Windows 10 updates, than it becomes way more accurate.

While the tactics may have been shady, what they managed to do was force everybody to be up to date and secure from any major OS exploits that they have patched but people too stubborn to accept change would've been vulnerable to.

Just accept the fact that the game is going to change and adapt like the rest of us. How else do you expect new content to be added to the game?

Regardless, I think the hassle of shuffling around some wires is much better compared to going back to an older build with already patched game breaking bugs.

[Ambaire]

Just now, watermelen671 said:

It's a lose-lose situation, and something that's going to happen regardless. All you can really ask is for the devs to lets us know, and adapt. It's really not that hard to build an automation bridge over the vents, just take the L and move on.

Or maybe give automation-enabled buildings a player toggle to ignore automation wires.

[watermelen671]

Just now, Ambaire said:

Or maybe give automation-enabled buildings a player toggle to ignore automation wires.

You do realize just how badly that's going to break the automation system yeah?

Irregardless of that the simple act of "adding a toggle" is a lot more complicated than it seems, it's not a quick and easy fix that so many people think it is.

[Ambaire]

3 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

You do realize just how badly that's going to break the automation system yeah?

Irregardless of that the simple act of "adding a toggle" is a lot more complicated than it seems, it's not a quick and easy fix that so many people think it is.

How would it break the automation system? One can already adjust certain sensors to instantly toggle anything at any time with no duplicant input/action. Set a temperature sensor to above/below 0 K, etc.

[Grinch Simpson]

Are you sure the mods you need are actually broken? If any one of them fails to load, the game disables all of them. Try gradually re-enabling all of them, the mods which you attempted to add immediately before the crash (and are most likely to have caused it) with be highlighted in red.

[FutureJohny]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

That's great for the Kerbal Space Program.. .

 

However, I was specifically replying to FutureJohnny's reply to the OP and was simply clarifying that you have to choose, intentionally, to get beta content and that, at least for ONI, you're opted out of the betas by default.

I will try to be more clear in future posts.  Sorry for the confusion.

I actually meant the very same "betas" tab Ambaire is showing.

I am not saying beta was forced on me in any way. 

[blash365]

Yeah, damn those devs shipping us free updates with new content and performance improvements. I think it's a clear case for geneva.

 

 

Before your head explodes: Wait for your mods to be updated to the latest version. And in case you actually want to help the devs out, list the mods you are using and attach a save game. They are reading the forum and there might be an easy fix.

 

But then again,

[Tytan]

I was also having problems with some of my mods, which were conflicting because they were out of date, but this is a problem with mods, not with oni, if I (and yes) used some mods that made my game dependent, the only thing what I can do when they crash is: create a new game without them

because think like this, if I rollback to continue with an older version of oni, which guarantees me that even when my oni update the mods will not update and "tada" will give error in the same way

after all, in theory it is for the mods to update themselves with the game, if they do not update they are outdated, so if I want to go back to an old version of the game for me to use a mod, the mod can update and even then I face the "same" problem, in which case it would be worse, because the save game may not even be compatible with the most current version of the game

if you come back just out of nostalgia, it can be funny.
but to say that because some mod is no longer compatible and to say that this is gamebreaking, there is already an exaggeration

11 hours ago, Meltdown said:

While topic title is misleading, I think that OP has a point. Being able to roll back updates and play older versions of the game is not an unreasonable request. Since updates usually break mods, such option is essential for a mod-friendly game.

I agree with everything you said

 

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

Think of it like this: you're on Windows 95, and Microsoft makes you upgrade to Windows Vista or whatever because they no longer support 95 and there's a massive security flaw in that OS. Your computer can handle it, all it takes is adjustment on your part.

Now put it into context with ONI and bugs and/or performance enhancements.

yes, and taking as a parameter, things that would be crucial in the old o.s, direct x, framework, were updated and you were left without the repository to get a functional version

 

1 hour ago, Ambaire said:

Nostalgia. Also, you did note the other games I mentioned that allow this, right?

I think it's fair  xD

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

Does nobody remember when Microsoft stealth-forced everybody running Windows 7 to upgrade to Windows 10? I didn't want to be outright obvious in that comparison, but I at least hoped some people would've made the link. 

Heck, Microsoft is still doing forced updates!

At least with ONI you get new and actually useful content instead of having all of your stuff deleted and computer bricked.

and many computers nowadays come with the win 10 factory and barely have the minimum requirements to run, making the machine almost a paperweight, or even when it updated as you said, leaving several computers about to brick

but this is a useful argument for those who want some rollback right?

 

but I understand your point, to ask why the need to want to come back when you have the new one right in front of you, and that this is often forced on us and we don't give a damn (or we don't fight enough and accept)

 

42 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

But before Win10, or for users of older Windows versions that wasn't the case? And you still could refuse to update.

and this example you could use in oni, in the current oni, you cannot rollback, nor accept the version change or you may not accept the automatic update of steam and or play offline

that in reality, I don’t even know if steam allows to play without updating if there’s a pending version

[blash365]

2 hours ago, Ambaire said:

This is the 'betas' tab of Kerbal Space Program. A game that officially released 5 years ago. Gee, sure seems like devs can do more with it than just testing. Look at all those old major versions one can choose.

Or the 'Betas' tab of Factorio (a game still in early access, but with a very prolific modding community). That version list goes back almost 4 years.

See the post above yours and Meltdown's post in this thread for more.

So that's 2 games. And i am quite certain that you would have troubles making it up to 5.

What the OP said was that it is a "basic feature most games of steam provide".

That is clearly not the case, even if some dev studios chose to keep their old betas accessable, which would still not have helped the OP, since he is playing on the trunk.

[Ambaire]

7 minutes ago, Tytan said:

after all, in theory it is for the mods to update themselves with the game, if they do not update they are outdated, so if I want to go back to an old version of the game for me to use a mod, the mod can update and even then I face the "same" problem, in which case it would be worse, because the save game may not even be compatible with the most current version of the game

This is one problem with using the steam workshop, as mod compatibility is poorly indicated at best.

KSP has a third party utility (ckan) for this with an amazing quantity of old mods. Modded Minecraft has curseforge/etc with modders frequently keeping old versions around for download, since even though the game up to 1.14/1.15/whatever, tons of people still play 1.7.10, 1.10.2, etc.

4 minutes ago, blash365 said:

So that's 2 games. And i am quite certain that you would have troubles making it up to 5.

What the OP said was that it is a "basic feature most games of steam provide".

That is clearly not the case, even if some dev studios chose to keep their old betas accessable, which would still not have helped the OP, since he is playing on the trunk.

Did you 'see the post above'? I know of Avorion, Empyrion, Factorio, Kerbal Space Program, RimWorld, Stellaris, Space Engineers.. that's 7, just from a casual perusal of my steam games and a post in this thread, and there's probably more that I haven't r-clicked on to check.

[blash365]

2 minutes ago, Ambaire said:

Did you 'see the post above'? I know of Avorion, Empyrion, Factorio, RimWorld, Stellaris, Space Engineers.. that's 6, just from a casual perusal of my steam games and a post in this thread, and there's probably more that I haven't r-clicked on to check.

Alright, i see that i should have written 10 instead of 5. My point still stands. It is just "a few", not "most".

[Ambaire]

1 minute ago, blash365 said:

Alright, i see that i should have written 10 instead of 5. My point still stands. It is just "a few", not "most".

I wouldn't have replied if I'd known you were so determined to prove someone wrong.

<sarcastic, taunting voice>you can't think of x many<end sarcastic, taunting voice>

[blash365]

Just now, Ambaire said:

I wouldn't have replied if I'd known you were so determined to prove someone wrong.

<sarcastic, taunting voice>you can't think of this many<end sarcastic, taunting voice>

Well, it is wrong. So, why not put op back into reality. It is neither a "basic feature" nor a feature for "most games" on steam. That is a fact.

He can surely ask for the feature, but the way he posted his _first post_ on this otherwise constructive forum was pretty unconstructive.;)

[Ambaire]

7 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Well, it is wrong. So, why not put op back into reality. It is neither a "basic feature" nor a feature for "most games" on steam. That is a fact.

He can surely ask for the feature, but the way he posted his _first post_ on this otherwise constructive forum was pretty unconstructive.;)

.. I guess I should actually start reading OPs thoroughly rather than skimming and getting distracted by other peoples' posts. Bleh. Totally didn't notice the 'basic feature' and 'most games' parts until now.

You have my apologies.

[psusi]

Heck, I thought this was a standard steam feature.  I'm still running Minecraft 1.7.10 because my favorite mod ( Gregtech 6 ) hasn't and won't be ported to the newer versions.  The Minecraft launcher lets you go back and play every version ever released.

[charger265]

Well i can see this a pretty hot topic and many divided views on the subject.

Yes the title was slightly misleading but in the context of my current modded play through its completely game breaking.

Now to get to the basis of the main issue having 290+ versions to download depending on the patch is not reasonable and was never asking for that. But with game fixes that change the way assets are loaded and automation added to outputs that were not previously used are in fact game breaking for many reasons. Not having the ability to stay on a current version or roll back to a working version for that play through is not the best option and there are many ways to work around this without causing the dev's a huge range of issue.

I see the argument with bug fixes and reports but its an easy workaround. Eg/ if you not on the latest version then your bugfix report is invalid and any submission is a standard response "upgrade to the current xxx version"
Having previous versions available along with a rollback feature is not hard to complete and would require manual operation by the user which shows a level of knowledge and a clear understanding of the implications. By default the game should always update to the most current version.

Just on a personal note sinking 100+ hours into a play through to have the dev's push an unwanted patch breaking the 100+ hour play through just makes me as a user want to shelve the game and move on. With many other EA (early access) games or even stable released games that i currently play there are opt-in / opt-out versions that give me the user the power to play as i wish.

I think with the strength of the modding community the dev's should take note of making this feature available as it will only strengthen the games support community instead of leaving a sour taste of "game breaking update"

[KittenIsAGeek]

7 hours ago, FutureJohny said:

I actually meant the very same "betas" tab Ambaire is showing.

Then I stand corrected and I was the one doing the misunderstanding.  

[TheDeamon]

12 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

You do realize there have been 296 patches to this game? What's the cutoff point? Which upgrade do they no longer allow you to rollback to?

Paradox Interactive and a few other studios/publishers seem to generally stick to "major patch revisions" so you would not be keeping a library of every hotfix/bugfix patch they pushed out. Just the last hotfix/bugfix patch for that particular iteration. For ONI that would probably take the form of the post-launch content packs being the "major patch" level. 

I do know when I switched to the beta build for this release, it did result in a scramble to disconnect a number of vents and other things from automation circuits they were not intended to be part of as they didn't have automation ports previously. In a few cases, even replacing some automation circuits entirely because I had a logic gate placed directly behind an item that suddenly had an input port that didn't exist before.

That probably caused some rather significant mayhem for other players bases, luckily for me my base was bit more lucky on where those surprises struck. I can fully understand people wanting to be able to load up an old base to mess around without needing to go on a mad scramble to fix everything the broke due to changes in the game after that save was last played on.

But Klei offering that ability or not isn't going to break the game for me personally.