voqn Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 "Ethanol can do heat deletion while phase-changing" This knowledge has been known since introduced ethanol. "How?" Ethanol Gas has lower SHC (Specific Heat Capacity) than liquid one. https://oni-db.com/details/ethanol : SHC 2.46 https://oni-db.com/details/ethanolgas : SHC 2.14 For example, "Repeating evaporation and condensation of 200kg ethanol" Require positive thermal energy to boil 200kg ethanol from 70c to 80c2.46 * (80 - 70) * 200 = 4920 (kDTU) Require negative thermal energy to liquefy 200kg ethanol gas from 80c to 70c2.148 * (70 - 80) * 200 = -4296(kDTU) Distance lacked heat energy:4920 - 4296 = 614(kDTU) Generated heat from Aquatuner using water coolant :528(kDTU/s) Result heat exchange:528 - 614 = -96(kDTU/s) "Wait, will be it stronger than AETN!?" "Yes, but this is just a hypothesis. And in reality, you won't be able to handle large amounts of ethanol that way" However, some implementations are here @Blazing Falken 's "Crying Crab Cooler" Spoiler GearHead-Gaming's ethanol boiler Spoiler I tried more practical build. Self-cooling was succeeded. Structure & Demo A important trick is temp-shift plate. This keeps chill Igneous rock tile and earns heat capacity. I didn't wait for more than a dozen cycles to get this result It seemed that heat deletion was stronger than expected Advantages This can build with resources only start forest biome. Aluminum Ore. refined Aluminum Ethanol by wild Arbor-tree IgneousRock It's reasonable to play early-mid game in Arboria and Oasisse Arboria lack Gold-Amalgam. Start biome in Oasisse is surrounded by hot desert biome. It can be Selfpowered by petroleum generator. A tuned petroleum generator generates 3000W 4 Ethanol distiller requires 240 * 4 = 960W liquid pump requires 240W Instead Carbon skimmer, using door pump eraser. Totally, surplus power is : 3000 - (1200 + 960 + 240) = 600W How it works NOTE： This tips for pre-turbine technology. After enable to build steam turbine, this will be outdated system in your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckle21 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 That is genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I've been wanting to try this since the Crying Crab post. The extra space to create vacuum above the ethanol is crucial. Great post, @voqn. Nicely laid out details and information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonDegow Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 That's quite neat but I wouldn't use ethanol phase changes as a primary cooling method but more of an amplifier of another system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachunga Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 You can use water instead of ethanol and get heat deletion in the same way. So I think it's less about manipulating SHC differences and more about the game being buggy with heat energy when you have droplets that evaporate causing big changes in gas pressure. Same thing as turbines deleting heat when the output water is feed back into the steam chamber in certain ways. The turbine heat deletion has been posted about several times. There is a bug report somewhere that shows the bug with 2 cells of differing gas pressures mixing. I can't be arsed to find it though. Nice idea though. I'm a fan of doing clever things by condensing gases. It's a shame the game is so damn buggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 6 hours ago, wachunga said: You can use water instead of ethanol and get heat deletion in the same way. So I think it's less about manipulating SHC differences and more about the game being buggy with heat energy when you have droplets that evaporate causing big changes in gas pressure. Same thing as turbines deleting heat when the output water is feed back into the steam chamber in certain ways. No you can't. It works with ethanol because of the difference in SHC. Water and steam have the same SHC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachunga Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Jesus Christ. What the hell happened to this game and this forum? **** me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksteel Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Amazing work! I'll try it in my next run. I'm a cooling maniac... Excellent reason to work with Ethanol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigjw Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Junksteel said: Amazing work! I'll try it in my next run. I'm a cooling maniac... Excellent reason to work with Ethanol! Ethanol is such a amazing invention. Dupes should really become drunk when exposed to it without a atmo suit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 15 hours ago, psusi said: No you can't. It works with ethanol because of the difference in SHC. Water and steam have the same SHC. Are you sure? Have you done any of your own testing? It seems to me that @wachunga's point is that this isn't necessarily solely down to SHC difference, and is in part down to the fact that rapid pressure changes/condensation is still not entirely predictable in this *simulation* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beowulf2010 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, Lifegrow said: Are you sure? Have you done any of your own testing? It seems to me that @wachunga's point is that this isn't necessarily solely down to SHC difference, and is in part down to the fact that rapid pressure changes/condensation is still not entirely predictable in this *simulation* Considering the original poster stated that the results were better than they calculated, I'm inclined to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT_20 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 You could probably push the cooling from the SHC difference a lot further by using the 100g/s gas pipe trick to super cool the ethanol gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I suppose you could also be triggering that bug that deletes heat from turbines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voqn Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, psusi said: I suppose you could also be triggering that bug that deletes heat from turbines. Yeah, after I thought about it. On 2020/1/22 at 7:03 PM, voqn said: I didn't wait for more than a dozen cycles to get this result It seemed that heat deletion was stronger than expected I assume that result included turbines over heat deletion bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 You _can_ use water instead of Ethanol in much the same way, but your margins are incredibly slim -- it can take a dozen cycles to drop your 'cold' room by a few C. Boiling is a high-energy transition and condensing is a low-energy transition. There's a built in hysteresis between boiling and condensing, but it only gives you about 5C to work with. You'll get faster results with a wheezewart in hydrogen. Also, you'll be right at the edge of your materials unless you use steel for the aquatuner. It was MUCH easier before the drip bug was resolved, but it still worked after. I've done it in the past, but since the change in how steam turbines work, its much easier just to go that route. A turbine will get your room cold in a cycle or two. So if you're not using Ethanol, you might as well just use a turbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachunga Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I found this concept interesting enough to make a test rig to get a ballpark idea of the heat deletion between water and ethanol. SelfCoolingAT.sav Flip the atmos to start the ATs. Watch reservoir temps to evaluate the heat deletion. Ethanol does about twice that of plain water. One would suggest the deletion is about half from the bug and half from the SHC manipulation. There is a poorly understood bug involved though, so I would advise caution in reading too much into it. Hydrogen is provided to demonstrate the heat deletion bug is very likely due to liquids blorping into gas over and over. It's reservoir temp will go down, but that's because heat is being dumped into the hydrogen. Manipulate the hydro sensor to return the reservoir temp to it's initial state and you'll see the hydrogen temp has returned to it's initial state as well (rounding errors notwithstanding). I hope this can lay to rest the question of whether or not there is a bug deleting substantial amounts of heat in these types of builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonDegow Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 On 22/01/2020 at 8:15 PM, wachunga said: The turbine heat deletion has been posted about several times. There is a bug report somewhere that shows the bug with 2 cells of differing gas pressures mixing. I can't be arsed to find it though. Is this what you're looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wachunga Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Yes that's the main discussion, thank you. I was vaguely aware of oddities prior, but that really delved into it. Credit to Tonyroid for putting in the work testing and figuring stuff out. I think I found the report I was thinking of: And for good measure: Searching back through through all the reports really makes it clear how many unresolved and unacknowledged issues there are. Klei please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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