Airlocks: we don't need a complete building- just better tools/system

[badgamer123]

33 minutes ago, Mullematsch said:

Isn't the main issue with using airlocks with pumps and logic (open doors if vacuum) that they break pathfinding? If that would be fixed and duplicants would wait in front of the airlocks instead of dropping their stuff and doing something else, I would use them. 

we also need a alert system install to tell us the dupe-check point got some error.I once almost kill 2 dupe because the check point mess up and stay red 2 day(that place have no oxygen,suit only).

Edit:I only using the check point because I feel like it(role play reason),that place could run smoothly without checkpoint in fact.

[Moonkis]

15 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Know what's an incredibly weak, bad faith argument? Talking about "the sorts of people who would make such an argument" instead of any sort of actual engagement.

There is a poetic amount of irony here. Nobody likes to have their hypocrisy pointed out and I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that it boils down "I like it and don't want it gone" which is then badly justified with "It's realistic" and then when that fails "it's how ONI works, it's a game". 

You want engagement? How about providing some decent arguments for waterlocks.

15 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Until the devs speak directly about it, we do have the next best thing: the actual state of the game from conception until now, for more than two years uninterrupted. And that is one of a tile-physics created by them which allows for liquid locks. And one where when it became popular to do so, they responded by adding a new material specifically for this purpose. Opposition to how the game has always worked is a completely valid, but personally held view. Just like agreement with how it is designed is.

The actual state of the game is a really bad metric. Especially with the numerous amount of bugs, exploits and performance issues that have persisted since day one. Which you know. Gas Deletion from Airlocks being a prime example. Not only ignoring the fact that many issues that existed since day one have just started being addressed.

I'm not sure where you are going with that last paragraph, it's just restating what I said previously, but I think we can agree on that.

 

 

[nakomaru]

1 hour ago, Moonkis said:

Nobody likes to have their hypocrisy pointed out and I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that it boils down "I like it and don't want it gone" which is then badly justified with "It's realistic"

I have never justified water locks with realism.

1 hour ago, Moonkis said:

The actual state of the game is a really bad metric.

The game they have made has a material they added specifically for helping you build liquid locks. There is no ambiguity about their intent with viscogel.

1 hour ago, Moonkis said:

How about providing some decent arguments for waterlocks.

My argument is that ONI is an immensely fun game which includes lots of bizarre physics. I agree with Klei about the vast majority of implementation being fun, and you don't in this case.

That was the point of the last paragraph. The only argument here is what makes a fun and satisfying game. And that is a personal, almost involuntary belief.

I will have try at why I think liquid locks are better gameplay than an airtight opened door:

• An airtight open door doesn't behave as tile physics does. (Well, I guess the opposing argument is tile physics shouldn't exist. Alternatively, you could say it's "like a transit tube crossing".)
• The door can never freeze and almost never melt. With liquid, you can work around these by considering materials, within limits.
• It has no debuffs. With liquid, you can wear suits or you may be able to work around it with jumps. (Well, I guess it consumes some electricity. Sure.)
• It can basically never fail due to a major spill nearby.
• There is no risk of destruction from off gassing. With liquids, you can work around it with naptha or viscogel or deep basins.
• There is a space age near equivalent already in the game.
• They really help you to understand how the game engine works.

Liquid locks are incredibly powerful but there are a variety of subtle limitations, better and worse ways to make them, and require planning and consideration, especially for extreme temperatures. And they definitely can go wrong. They are interactively tied to the rest of the gameplay.

Now, I completely understand the need for veterans to eliminate tedium. I do this with the storage mod because I really don't need to build an infinite gas/liquid storage facility for the 25th time. There is a mod for me and you.

[tseitsei]

26 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

The game they have made has a material they added specifically for helping you build liquid locks. There is no ambiguity about their intent with viscogel.

Late game exotic space material has quite different expectations than normal water...

Visco gel doesnt have a counterpart in the real world so they can make it behave however they want. But water is still water and one would expect it to behave like water

[nakomaru]

38 minutes ago, tseitsei said:

But water is still water and one would expect it to behave like water

I thought we were talking about Klei's intentions with their physics.

It seems you think that water should vaporize under vacuum just like the real world. But I don't see how that relates to what we know about what Klei intended. Actually we can see that they have intended for no liquids to vaporize under vacuum.

[tseitsei]

10 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

 

It seems you think that water should vaporize under vacuum just like the real world. But I don't see how that relates to what we know about what Klei intended. Actually we can see that they have intended for no liquids to vaporize under vacuum.

That would be optimal yes, but everything cant be modeled perfectly in the game. They obviously need to use some big simplifications and approximations to make the simulation run on normal computers (such as no real pressure system and 1 gas/liquid per tile are currently used for example), so you cant know what they really wanted to do and what they had to do in order to make the game work.

I dont even know if "fixing" the waterlock issue is possible without a complete rewrite of the system but I sure hope so. It is just too gamey mechanic for me :/

 

[nakomaru]

3 minutes ago, tseitsei said:

what they had to do in order to make the game work

This is what I'm calling "intended" - the game they intended to build after all deliberation.

8 minutes ago, tseitsei said:

It is just too gamey mechanic for me :/

It's all down to preference for every one of us. I'm sorry it's not the game you wanted.  I hope mods can get it closer.

[tseitsei]

6 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

It's all down to preference for every one of us. I'm sorry it's not the game you wanted.  I hope mods can get it closer.

Yeah it really comes down to preference.

And dont get me wrong ONI is one of the best games I have played and I like it very much  But everything can always be even better

[Yunru]

8 hours ago, Mullematsch said:

Isn't the main issue with using airlocks with pumps and logic (open doors if vacuum) that they break pathfinding?

Not mine.

[Moonkis]

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I have never justified water locks with realism.

True, and that is my mistake. Apologies.

 

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I have never justified water locks with realism.
The game they have made has a material they added specifically for helping you build liquid locks. There is no ambiguity about their intent with viscogel.

Agreed but that doesn't translate into water, does it? One is a space-age material the other one isn't. You could argue that because it sticks it was intentional, and I disagree but that's purely speculative on my part, reality is only time will tell.

 

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

My argument is that ONI is an immensely fun game which includes lots of bizarre physics.

That's not an argument.

 

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I agree with Klei about the vast majority of implementation being fun, and you don't in this case.

I do though? I'm not really sure where you got the impression I didn't from. First of all, waterlock is not a vast majority it's a tiny mechanic in the plethora of implementations so what are you on about?

I mean granted I can't really agree or disagree with Klei on waterlocks yet because it's not a confirmed intentional side-effect. You extrapolate from the fact that it has yet to be patched out, it's intentional and you are essentially agreeing with your own conclusion not Klei.

 

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

That was the point of the last paragraph. The only argument here is what makes a fun and satisfying game. And that is a personal, almost involuntary belief.

This is partially true. There is a whole field of peer reviewed research that analyzes what makes a game "fun", "good", "engaging". It's personal, but definitely not involuntary belief. To imply that it is, is to discredit the entire field, researches and their work. Granted it's not an exact science but it's at the very least quantifiable data.

 

3 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I will have try at why I think liquid locks are better gameplay than an airtight opened door:

• An airtight open door doesn't behave as tile physics does. (Well, I guess the opposing argument is tile physics shouldn't exist. Alternatively, you could say it's "like a transit tube crossing".)
• The door can never freeze and almost never melt. With liquid, you can work around these by considering materials, within limits.
• It has no debuffs. With liquid, you can wear suits or you may be able to work around it with jumps. (Well, I guess it consumes some electricity. Sure.)
• It can basically never fail due to a major spill nearby.
• There is no risk of destruction from off gassing. With liquids, you can work around it with naptha or viscogel or deep basins.
• There is a space age near equivalent already in the game.
• They really help you to understand how the game engine works.

This is good, I'm not going to argue against that but I'm curious how often does waterlock fail? Compared to an Airlock? (I noticed you deliberately used the word Airtight door, both you and I know that's not what it's called.)
 

4 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Now, I completely understand the need for veterans to eliminate tedium. I do this with the storage mod because I really don't need to build an infinite gas/liquid storage facility for the 25th time. There is a mod for me and you.

Not sure what you are getting at here, seems irrelevant. I guess time will tell what Klei's intention are.
 

[607581_1452789984]

1 hour ago, Moonkis said:

I noticed you deliberately used the word Airtight door, both you and I know that's not what it's called.

This. I feel like a lot of this debate would quiet down if Klei renamed "Manual Airlock" to "Airtight Door" etc. There are really several separate threads getting mixed up here:

1. Most (if not all) players want airlocks (lowercase!) since ONI is all about controlling gas flow

2. Some players are satisfied with building airlocks using tiles and liquid, relying on the surface tension physics that make a tile half-full of liquid stick to the ceiling

3. Some players want a proper Airlock building, since the #2 solution is non-obvious and feels like an exploit

4. Some players want the current so-called Airlock buildings to function as airlocks since that's what their name implies

5. Some players actively don't want proper Airlock buildings added to the standard building set

I personally feel that if everyone agrees on #0 -- rename "Manual Airlock" since it's not an airlock (for Pete's sake!) -- then we can argue about #3 vs. #5 and whether such a building should be standard or mod content, without getting quite so prickly.

Agree? Go "Like" this bug:

 

[Yunru]

2 minutes ago, 607581_1452789984 said:

rename "Mechanical Airlock" since it's not an airlock (for Pete's sake!)

What do you call the door on an airlock? An airlock door.

What if it's mechanised? A mechanised airlock door.

What if it's obviously a door and character space is limited? A mechanised airlock.

[tseitsei]

3 minutes ago, Yunru said:

What do you call the door on an airlock? An airlock door.

What if it's mechanised? A mechanised airlock door.

What if it's obviously a door and character space is limited? A mechanised airlock.

Airtight door. Mechanized airtight door.

[Yunru]

1 minute ago, tseitsei said:

Airtight door. Mechanized airtight door.

What do you call the door to a safe? A locktight door?

[607581_1452789984]

14 minutes ago, Yunru said:

What do you call the door on an airlock? An airlock door.

What if it's mechanised? A mechanised airlock door.

 

I don't think we have the same understanding of those names.

In "Manual Airlock", "Manual" is an adjective and "Airlock" is a noun. Hence, the thing is an airlock, that can be operated manually.

In "Airlock Door", "Airlock" is an adjective and "Door" is a noun. Hence, the thing is a door, that can be used in an airlock.

In "Mechanized Airlock Door", "Mechanized Airlock" is an adjectival modifying noun phrase, and "Door" is a noun. Hence, the thing is a door, that can be used in a mechanized airlock. (Alternately, it is a door, that is of an airlock and is also mechanized. Language is ambiguous.)

 

14 minutes ago, Yunru said:

What if it's obviously a door and character space is limited? A mechanised airlock.

Names are important, and clearly the fact that it's a door is not obvious because most new players who know what an airlock is think it's an airlock, not a door. Every other building in the game has a name that describes what it is; why should doors be different?

 

 

 

[isendel11]

20 hours ago, CannedSmeef said:

No, I want it to be made out of muckroot

We need a muckroot volcano or something then though, I hate to run my base on non-renewable resources  

[Moah]

38 minutes ago, Yunru said:

 

What do you call the door to a safe? A locktight door?

its called "safe-door"

and an airlock is an airlock, manuell or mechanized does not matter!

google translate from german wiki "airlock" (luftschleuse):

Quote

If the air pressure is to be maintained or changed as the only component, then it is usually a pressure lock. When both pressure and other components are involved, this is usually referred to as an airlock. This is also the common name of the locks in the space for docking or getting in and out.

 

[tseitsei]

1 hour ago, Yunru said:

What do you call the door to a safe? A locktight door?

If you dont use the "airlock door" to make an airlock, is it still an airlock door or just a door that is airtight?

Similarly if you have an armored door, that you can use as a safe, but you instead install it to a (lets say) armored car. Is it now a door to a safe or door to a car? Either way it is still an armored door just like airtight door is still airtight no matter where you use it...

Edit: and yeah if it wasnt already obvious I would call a safe door an armored door in this case...

[Yunru]

Right, for serious though, all the alternative names proposed are just too long.

[607581_1452789984]

3 hours ago, Yunru said:

Right, for serious though, all the alternative names proposed are just too long.

That's nonsense:

 

Manual Airlock - 13 letters

Sealing Door - 11 letters

Airtight Door - 12 letters

 

Mechanized Airlock - 17 letters

Mechanized Door - 14 letters

Automatic Door - 13 letters

Automated Sealing Door - 20 letters

Auto Sealing Door - 15 letters

 

Transit Tube Crossing - 19 letters 

 

So, to sum up, all of the above two-word replacements are shorter than the original name, and one three-word replacement is only one letter longer than a different item in the same build panel.

For serious 

[Yunru]

Hush you heatwave.

I have reasons against some of those but for now imma pass out I think.

[Lurve]

If we're drifting to grouse about how the airlock door is perceived by newbies, how about that other buildings work when placed on them, that they don't overheat, that they never take pressure damage, or that automation can be used to open and close them while completely unpowered, temporarily disabling buildings built on them and making perfect vacuum seals?

"Not technically an airlock" is the least of its counter-intuitive features, because the last thing advanced players ever use them for is a door.

[Yunru]

"Automated Plane" just doesn't sound the same though.

[Lurve]

I'd call it a "platform" and not refer to it as a door at all, even if it can be used as one.  I'd also have it require power to open or shut without dupe intervention, it's out of character for this game that it enables SO much automation with absolutely no cost or downside.

[goboking]

6 hours ago, Moonkis said:

There is a poetic amount of irony here. Nobody likes to have their hypocrisy pointed out and I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that it boils down "I like it and don't want it gone" which is then badly justified with "It's realistic" and then when that fails "it's how ONI works, it's a game". 

I don't use them.  Nor I don't want them gone.  So, do you have any presumptuous observations you want hurl my way based on those two points?

6 hours ago, Moonkis said:

You want engagement? How about providing some decent arguments for waterlocks.

We did, you just chose to disregard them.  They exist because the game is being released in five days and the developers have neither the time nor the inclination to rewrite the game's one-element per tile rules.

6 hours ago, Moonkis said:

it doesn't change the fact that it boils down "I like it and don't want it gone"

Speaking of hypocrisy...