Water solidification process

[OxCD]

Hi the commu.

I'm trying to setup a freezer to be able to cool water until it turns to ice, & piles up unlimited amount of ice, then a kettle to turn it back to water. (main goal is infinite storage of water without those invasive liquid container. Still experimental.

The first thing I've noticed in my first rough draft is water turning into ice block, instead of ice debris as expected. I guess it depends the liquid mass density when water freezes. Do you know what is the threshold ?

 

Thanks all

Have a nice day !

[Bluefoxfire]

For the ice block problem, you can have a pipe system slowly feeding water to said freezer. There's a lot of ways to set up something like it so experiment to fit it into your base. 

Quote

pile up unlimited amount of ice, then a kettle to turn it back to water. (main goal is infinite storage of water)

This is something to be careful with as if too much melts at once, the sheer amount of water pressure can break outer tiles in whatever you stored it and flood your base. Even abyssalite has it's limits (back when you could build stuff with it). I do know of using gas tiles and air locks to get around that but I'm not sure if it got patched out or not.

[Denisetwin]

8 minutes ago, Bluefoxfire said:

I do know of using gas tiles and air locks to get around that but I'm not sure if it got patched out or not.

not patched out so far

[Bluefoxfire]

10 minutes ago, Denisetwin said:

not patched out so far

I see. I remember there was something patched out with air tiles and water, but couldn't remember exactly what.

[Saturnus]

41 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Do you know what is the threshold ?

200kg/tile

[OxCD]

Just now, Saturnus said:

200kg/tile

Perfect. Thanks Saturnus !

[Saturnus]

Just be careful, or you'll quickly turn it into a matter duplicator (TM)

 

[osefcomplet]

Just now, Saturnus said:

200kg/tile

I just tested it and I would get chunks till 800kg/tile, at 801 it would make a block

[Saturnus]

4 minutes ago, osefcomplet said:

I just tested it and I would get chunks till 800kg/tile, at 801 it would make a block

Depends on how fast you freeze it what the upper limit is. The lower limit is the important one. And that is 200kg/tile.

Or at least that was the general consensus at the time I experimented with the duplicator... which still works I may add.

[osefcomplet]

7 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Depends on how fast you freeze it what the upper limit is. The lower limit is the important one. And that is 200kg/tile.

Or at least that was the general consensus at the time I experimented with the duplicator... which still works I may add.

Ok I wasn't sure about my process, I made different size of water blocks but always in -220° C hydrogen which is a pretty fast process I guess

[Nightinggale]

Wouldn't it be easy to build a freezer? All it takes is an insulated floor, radiant pipes with cold super coolant and a transfer arm for ice. Last, but not least a shutoff valve for adding water, which turns on when a hydro sensor is below say 150 kg. Maybe make the floor and walls out of copper (metal tiles) and have the super coolant run through those with radiant pipes. That way the water is cooled both from the pipes and metal tiles, increasing the heat transfer and allow more water to pass through each second (on average).

Maybe you don't need any insulation. Just do everything in a vacuum and your water supply pipe won't freeze even if the water in it is at a standstill for ages. The transfer arm won't overheat because it's ice cooled.

I will be looking forward to reading about how you manage to get this working flawlessly and efficient

[OxCD]

4 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

Wouldn't it be easy to build a freezer? All it takes is an insulated floor, radiant pipes with cold super coolant and a transfer arm for ice. Last, but not least a shutoff valve for adding water, which turns on when a hydro sensor is below say 150 kg. Maybe make the floor and walls out of copper (metal tiles) and have the super coolant run through those with radiant pipes. That way the water is cooled both from the pipes and metal tiles, increasing the heat transfer and allow more water to pass through each second (on average).

Maybe you don't need any insulation. Just do everything in a vacuum and your water supply pipe won't freeze even if the water in it is at a standstill for ages. The transfer arm won't overheat because it's ice cooled.

I will be looking forward to reading about how you manage to get this working flawlessly and efficient

Thanks, most of those concepts are already in my head and few others. I'll try to remember to share the result if I'm satisfied with it

[mathmanican]

6 hours ago, Saturnus said:

the duplicator... which still works I may add.

Back when I made that thing, I did notice that as long as I kept cooling the ice fast enough (always freezing small chunks), I could build up 25t piles without having to move anything.  As long as it stays frozen, and freezes in under 200kg chunks, you're good to go (I would stop pumping water once a day, and then drop the ice below the freezer and collect huge piles - examples are in the spoiler as the "extra builds" in the link that @Saturnus posted - they are completely relevant, just remove the melter part focused on duplication). If you are sure you can freeze 10kg/s, then just pump the water directly into your freezer at that rate (otherwise throttle it - or hydrosensor shut it off above 150kg). This will probably be much easier if you have at least a 2 tile wide liquid dump, so that one side can constantly freeze stuff while the other side receives the warmer water.

There are lots of other ways to store infinite water without freezing it.  If that is the only goal, and you want some other ways that require practically no effort, ask and I'm sure people will be very ready to share their favorite. I personally love using a compact version of the following (a compact infinite storage system, accessible by dupes for manual dumping, is 4 wide by 6 tiles high, including walls). 

 

[OxCD]

@mathmanican infinite storage using door compression is not a glitch that I allow me to play with otherwise that would be the easiest way, indeed.

[Saturnus]

30 minutes ago, OxCD said:

@mathmanican infinite storage using door compression is not a glitch that I allow me to play with otherwise that would be the easiest way, indeed.

There's no door compression in the link he provided.

[Angpaur]

8 hours ago, OxCD said:

Do you know what is the threshold ?

There seems to be a general rule for all liquids - it needs to be no more than a initial mass of element than you spawn using debug/sandbox minus 20%. That is why 800 kg works, but not 801 kg.

Same works with magma - initial mass is 1840 kg. It will solidify into chunk when mass is 1472 kg, but not if is 1473 kg. 

Also, from what Saturnus is saying, seems like it needs to be at least 20% of initial mass.

[OxCD]

4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

There's no door compression in the link he provided.

I express myself wrong. As far as I get it you use doors ability to do not collapse under liquid pressure. That's the feature / glitch I'm talking about. I personnaly take this one as a glitch, so I decided to do not use it.

[Saturnus]

8 minutes ago, OxCD said:

I express myself wrong. As far as I get it you use doors ability to do not collapse under liquid pressure. That's the feature / glitch I'm talking about. I personnaly take this one as a glitch, so I decided to do not use it.

Well. You don't need to use doors. 3 tiles thick walls stops any pressure as well, so you can use that if you dislike using the doors. Doesn't change the fact that the build would still work as an infinite storage.

Like this (only showing the tiles that are actually needed, you can add superfluous ones to your hearts content)
 

[OxCD]

8 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

3 tiles thick walls stops any pressure as well

Didn't know that ! I know pressure resistance was depending the wall thickness (and element used), but didn't know 3 tiles only make it unbreakable. 

Nevertheless, don't know yet if I'm going to consider it also as a glitch ahah ^^

 

[Zakery]

The simplest way from my exp is using a bath with something like PW or any low freezing point liquid, cool it to -X C and drip water...

Water turn to ice without form blocks and you have ice debris on floor of bath

[Lacost]

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Well. You don't need to use doors. 3 tiles thick walls stops any pressure as well, so you can use that if you dislike using the doors. Doesn't change the fact that the build would still work as an infinite storage.

Like this (only showing the tiles that are actually needed, you can add superfluous ones to your hearts content)
 

I probably could never build such a thing. I would constantly ask myself: What would happen if I remove that one tile and all of these hundreds of tons of water would spill out into my base? I definitely will not resist... Seeing those beautiful, quirky high pressure liquid mechanics when expanding...

 

Hmhm...

 

Anyways BTT: If you are concerned with ice turning into blocks instead of items, you could also build in a robo-miner as a failsafe. This way even if you screw up your calculations and too much water gets in, it will automatically get dealt with. Just a sidenote consideration.

[OxCD]

3 minutes ago, Lacost said:

Anyways BTT: If you are concerned with ice turning into blocks instead of items, you could also build in a robo-miner as a failsafe. This way even if you screw up your calculations and too much water gets in, it will automatically get dealt with. Just a sidenote consideration.

Yep correct. Robo-miner is floodable, so if it cans fit in the design, it's an easy failsafe

[mathmanican]

8 hours ago, OxCD said:

Nevertheless, don't know yet if I'm going to consider it also as a glitch ahah ^^

Would anyone consider it a glitch that solid ice has no volume, while liquid water takes up space?  Hmm...   Doesn't ice expand as it freezes, taking up more space as ice than it does as water...  The real glitch here seems to be the fact that solids, when mined, have no volume in ONI. 

• Building an infinite solid storage facility seems like an exploit of one game mechanic (zero volume for mined solids).
• Building an infinite liquid storage facility is an exploit of another game mechanic (doors can withstand infinite pressure, or 3 tile thick walls).
• Building an infinite gas storage facility is an exploit of yet another game mechanic (lots to pick from). 

I think ONI attracts hoarders.  

Personally, I have decided to use, and abuse, the Bigger Capacity mod by newman55.  I know how to build a storage facility in basically no space for solids, liquids, and gases. I can instead install a mod that lets me store everything I could ever use in a premade building, and then focus on other projects. 

The fun part of ONI is deciding which glitch/exploit you want to avoid using, and which you want to abuse. Which assumptions of a model will you keep, which will you toss, and what can result. Every play through can be different, if you change your internal rules.  This is what makes ONI infinitely re playable.  

• It's clearly a glitch/exploit that you can generate infinite energy out of the crude oil to natural gas process, but people don't get on those posts and bash them for glitching the game. The devs stepped in and made huge changes to the process, making it tons more complicated with the sour gas introduction.
• On the other hand, oh boy did people get on the infinite steam turbine pages and complain like mad.   ("You shouldn't be able to generate infinite energy without any input..." -  Why not? I can put infinite mass in zero volume... I can generate more crude oil than I spend in the crude/NG loops....  Why not just cut out the middle man and make infinite energy out of nothing...) The new turbine has been pretty well balanced. The sour gas loop with crude->natural gas has been nerfed, but still over powered, which may be fine for now. 
• We've already seen some crazy SHC issues with the glitchy/exploiting regolith->magma cycle, generating infinite heat and enough power to run an army of new steam turbines forever.  However, those builds haven't gained enough traction yet to force the devs to rebalance.  Maybe that will change.  We could start a month long campaign of regolith melter posts, showing all the crazy issues.  Then we could simplify the regolith melters for a noob (might as well include the Shove Vole farm for infinite food while we are at it). Then get a nice, slick, simple, small, system up and running. Then people will copy it in mass quantities till the devs realize that either (1) the game needs rebalancing, or (2) the let this wave take over and ignore it.  (Do fire farms in DST ring a bell?) 
• When will the bottled water PO2->O2 cycle be rebalanced?  Did the devs really want the most efficient oxygen system to be letting polluted water sit in bottles on the floor? You can use a MOGOM, or an Algae Terrarium farm, or a gym, or fill liquid storage tanks and empty them, or more. I've played with all these varieties. These all exploit current game mechanics. 
• Liquid Bead pump mechanics make really fun air locks that make your base look like there are permanent waterfalls all over (quite pretty).  They also work way better than regular pumps in moving gas around. Definitely not intended, but they haven't gained traction either.  I'm glad, as that means I'll get to keep using them.
• The list goes on....  And it's what makes the game fun for me. 

Have fun @OxCD.  The spoilers in my duplication post have several freezer type builds, that have nothing to do with infinite storage. I do use waterfall mechanics in some of them, but that can easily be replaced by a liquid pump (if you are not OK with waterfall mechanics). 

[Nightinggale]

I just had another inspiration on how to design a freezer. Place a hydro sensor with a metal tile on each side and a pressure plate sensor below. Make the hydro sensor activate on above 150 kg and the pressure plate sensor on above 10 kg. Take both outputs to a not gate and use the output of the not gate to control a liquid shutoff. Now it will add water if both sensors are false, that is below 150 kg water and no ice.

The latter part is important because it prevents water from flowing in and melt the ice, which in turn will make the amount of water become more than max allowed for the system.

To get the wanted capacity, you can set up the freeze as metal tile, hydro sensor, metal tile, hydro sensor, metal tile, hydro sensor.... Cool all tiles and cells with hydro sensors with radiant pipes using super coolant. If you want, you can also add a radiant gas pipe with hydrogen and while not as effective as super coolant, it should still cool faster than super coolant alone. The hydrogen can then be cooled elsewhere by super coolant if you like. It's a matter of how much cooling power you can get to a single cell within a single second.

[Denisetwin]

44 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

I think ONI attracts hoarders.  

Bwahahaha!  Guilty!  I have more water than I could ever use in current base, and yet I still jump through hoops to make sure the three slush geysers, water geyser etc do not overpressure and stop producing.....

44 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

The fun part of ONI is deciding which glitch/exploit you want to avoid using, and which you want to abuse. Which assumptions of a model will you keep, which will you toss, and what can result. Every play through can be different, if you change your internal rules.  This is what makes ONI infinitely re playable. 

And this.  I still love the pitcher pump cold one - It cracks me up to watch the oil drop in temp in the hot biome, when it's patched, I'll be sorry, but it will not materially affect my game.  I'll do something else, which is also fun.  In the links on this thread it reminded me that I really wanted to try to build @mathmanican 's water duplicator and/or @Saturnus petroleum version - not for the water, I really really do not need more water, but for the ice cold water at a minimal electricity cost.  I dearly love building grand contraptions, which, honestly, are not needed.  I could build a larger power plant and just spend the watts for many aquatuners and do the same thing, but I LIKE building the contraptions and getting the dang things to work!  I'm running three aquatuners right now doing various cold experiments on generators and this reminded me I could do that a different way and I'm totally building it next time I fire up ONI.  No wonder I haven't made it to space yet!  I had really set my goal to hit space this game and realized I got interested instead in cooling and I literally could stop running all three and stop building out there and could maybe finally get to space and it would not affect anything in my game except the cooper volcano would melt the radiant pipes.  Will still probably build a grand water/petroleum thing instead.  LOL   I could not figure out the bead mechanic until I was watching and my dupes would not use one four tile high section of ladder in the base, would instead crawl up the firepole there.  Turned out, my slush pond was overflowing and beading down those four tiles.  I left it as I'm trying to decide if I can do anything with that, LOL  One person's I can't play this as it's too glitchy/exploity, is another person's fun.  It's all good.