But are the characters virtuous or mediocre and selfish?

[Pop Guy]

Recently, some surveys by Terra_Zina have questioned the community on the behavior of the characters in particular situations: the community has given very different answers, indicative of how the characters of DS are perceived in a very different way by the players.
This topic really wants to reflect on this: but the characters, how are they perceived?
How altruists? Virtuosi? Moved by a sense of empathy and mutual help? Or are they together just because they are forced by desperation, ready to abandon themselves at the first opportunity?
Personally, I don't have a very positive consideration of the characters in general: they have always seemed to me, some more and some less, quite squalid and grotesque, as well as the world where they act and the artistic style with which they are represented.
Wilson is for me a sort of Frankenstein: his actions have never seemed to me moved by the desire to help others, but by wanting to satisfy one's ego and one's will to know all the knowledge possible.
"With my mind I can triumph over everything!" says its description.
Willow is a murderer. Okay, she set fire to an orphanage to defend himself, she was just a child. But she never shows repentance for the massacre she has carried out. Not only: she shows a palpable contempt for our world. She was happy to be in the Constant. Clearly a disturbed and pathological person, misled by unfortunate childhood and abandonment.
Wendy is depressed, unable despite her remarkable intelligence to go beyond the mourning of her twin, a past experience that continually wears her and dulls his every thought. An extremely sensitive nature, devastated by the harshness of life, and which apparently can hardly go on, and not give in to nihilistic and suicidal impulses. Wolfgang, on the other hand, is already more admirable: he shows an affable and generous character. His Christmas skin was Santa Claus. He worked in a circus, to make the children laugh. He was a soldier, so he had a strong sense of duty. But perhaps the horrors seen in war have traumatized him: this is why he is afraid of the dark and of monsters. But overall, in my opinion, a positive and admirable personality emerges.
On WX-78 there is little to say: an killer machine, which only don't kills everyone in their sleep because of a rational calculation.
Wickerbottom appears quite far from everything and everyone. A woman of great culture, austere and (perhaps) a bit misanthropic. An appreciable picture also emerges of her, all things considered.
Woodie is a psychopath. There is little to say. As affable and gentle as you want, certainly a sensitive nature. But he has a horrifying curse and speaks with an ax. Clearly an individual who has been traumatized indelibly and profoundly by his own curse.
Webber is a monstrous hybrid: no matter how much you like the child under the spider, a curious and intelligent child, but to deny his dual nature would be wrong. He is a monster, in the end.
Maxwell has committed atrocious crimes, ruining the lives of all the characters in the game, including himself, and causing the death of hundreds of people with the 1906 earthquake. Cruel and stupid, his redemption certainly does not cancel his crimes.
Winona is a diligent worker and a noble person, who is risking her life to save her sister. She is also a positive character, who also shows strong empathy (like when she risks her life to save Wagstaff)
Wortox has a dual nature: demon, but at the same time with very strong moral stakes. Being a non-human creature its mental processes are however quite difficult to predict / hypothesize. If in doubt I would not trust a Krampus.
In short, in my view of things there are very few positive characters, and that's okay.
If I love DS, it is because the characters are mostly squalid, cruel, mediocre or idiotic people: in short, like in real life :'D
That's why I liked Warbucks: a colonialist was perfectly consistent with the initial spirit of DS.
Although now it seems that the trend has changed: the new characters are all pretty positive. Who knows what the future holds for us =)

[-Variant]

Wait what?

I highly doubt they're all the same thing.

Shouldn't it be a multi question for each character in this case?
Or am I missing the point?

[Pop Guy]

16 minutes ago, -Variant said:

Wait what?

I highly doubt they're all the same thing.

Shouldn't it be a multi question for each character in this case?
Or am I missing the point?

I could enter up only to five characters

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Pop Guy said:

 

Touché.

[Plebgod]

Webber is a monster lookwise but that doesnt mean he is one if his quotes mention interacting with other survivors showing how sociable he is

[Tapirus]

Neither of the characters is really "totally virtuous or totally mediocre", everyone have good and bad things on him. 

And that's ok actually, because this allow us to see different behaviors or ways of act and think.

[FreyaMaluk]

This polls is so weird. How to judge somehow all characters based on some concept of morality? 

DS and DST always posed the question characters are complex and not very narrow representations between good vs evil. Characters in DS in like humans irl have different aspects that make aren't black or white. There are a lot of gray areas in between. 

Perfect example is Willow. She killed the old mean aunties there but she didn't do it specifically to hurt them. She was just in a bad situation and unfortunately Willow couldn't contain and more importantly work though her feelings and kaboom. 

If anything DS characters show that human in general are flawed but not "evil." ofc there are very disturbed people out there but calling people evil is simply misleading. 

Wolfgang probably saw a lot of heavy stuff when he was part of the army and that's why he probably joined the circus to forget that. Does his PTSD make him evil or human? 

1 hour ago, Pop Guy said:

I could enter up only to five characters

U can use one poll for some chacracters. Another poll for others. Or at least include a question that is not black or white cuz complex characters sometimes do good but also bad things and that doesn't necessarily make them negative per se. 

[Pop Guy]

16 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

This polls is so weird. How to judge somehow all characters based on some concept of morality? 

DS and DST always posed the question characters are complex and not very narrow representations between good vs evil. Characters in DS in like humans irl have different aspects that make aren't black or white. There are a lot of gray areas in between. 

Perfect example is Willow. She killed the old mean aunties there but she didn't do it specifically to hurt them. She was just in a bad situation and unfortunately Willow couldn't contain and more importantly work though her feelings and kaboom. 

If anything DS characters show that human in general are flawed but not "evil." ofc there are very disturbed people out there but calling people evil is simply misleading. 

Wolfgang probably saw a lot of heavy stuff when he was part of the army and that's why he probably joined the circus to forget that. Does his PTSD make him evil or human? 

U can use one poll for some chacracters. Another poll for others. Or at least include a question that is not black or white cuz complex characters sometimes do good but also bad things and that doesn't necessarily make them negative per se. 

Okay, I try to see if I can edit the poll by entering all the characters  

[Raspberry Shake]

Maxwell is the only character I would classify as something else other than "some rando stuck in a demon world". He's a scheming, cruel, egotistical, charismatic puppet master. Neutral evil, the best actual character IMO.

[Pop Guy]

@FreyaMaluk 

On Willow:

True, but I would like to clarify three things: first, the aunts, maybe, were not as cruel as we thought: maybe Willow had been causing problems for a long time, the aunts not being able to see the shadow didn't have our understanding of Willow's behaviors.
Second: presumably in the orphanage there were other children like Willow (the room where she slept was full of beds, in a gigantic villa). Presumably they are all burned to death.
Third: it was an accident, but Willow never shows remorse. Not even a little. This indicates that or she has removed the event (perhaps it was too traumatic); or she does not realize the gravity of the action she has taken. I would exclude that she is sadistic and intimately cruel, but in any case the overall picture is of a person who I think is regrettable and that I would keep away. 

(But as a character I love Willow, of course )

[Zeklo]

My thoughts definitely differ.

Wilson
The first thing that comes to mind here is how he ends up teaming with Maxwell in the Cyclum puzzle. Particularly when he offers him food. Sure, not fighting may be the most "logical" thing, but by no means does he have to share a valuable resource such as that. That strikes me as development from his initial "knowledge craving", "Maxwell hating" person.

Willow
As stated by her loading frame she sees the Constant as a new beginning. To me she comes off as someone who never belonged but found a place with the survivors. Sure, she's not mentally sound considering she's a pyromaniac, but she's not malicious. I particularly like her Webber Ghost quote: "Don't cry, %s, I'm getting you a heart."

Wolfgang
His loading screen says he "thrived off camaraderie". Which gives a good impression, though it can still be taken as selfish, I suppose. At the very least he sees being with the other survivors as a good thing. His quotes a pretty nice too.

Wendy
First off, I think trying to apply "logic" and "willpower" to depression is entirely ignorant. This is a sensitive topic, so I'm not going to go into it. Wendy's loading frame dictates that she fears Abigail's memory will fade if she stops mourning. She's alone. She was alone, but now she has the survivors, and even Webber, a friend. She even shows signs of getting better/opening up. One of my favorite being: "That looks... f-fun..." When examining the sculpting table.

Now, whether or not she's selfish comes down to her sister. If she believes there's a way to get her back, she might make a selfish decision, or that may have already happened.

WX-78
As I've said in the previous thread, I've never really seen WX-78 as dangerous. Dare I say I see him as somewhat tsundere. WX-78 says a lot of concerning stuff but he's very wishy washy. He may dislike "fleshlings", but not all of them. Certain ones are good. If you want to use a debatable example his own quote for himself as an "attacker": "TIME TO ELIMINATE THE %s VIRUS".

In other words, talking about murder is fine, but actually carrying it out is bad, supposedly.

Wickerbottom
Never really trusted her due to her mysteriousness. Why do her books have magic? How does she know so much about magic? Can she not sleep due to insomnia or something more sinister? 

Woodie
No particular thoughts here.

Wes
In all the little story bits in promos and whatnaught, Wes has been shown as an absolute dear. The only suspicious part is how he "displeased" Maxwell, but Maxwell's standards are bad anyway.

Maxwell
Maxwell is a bit iffy. According to Wickerbottom he's sweet once you pull away the ego, which is probably true if he becomes more akin to his old self. It's his motivators that are the most concerning. Take his WX-78 Ghost quote: "A shame about your death. You were the only one I half-liked." However, not all said words are necessarily true. His Wilson Reviver quote is touching: "%s is a real pal..." He does say it reluctantly, but it's powerful because it's not just "informative" like the others. i.e. "whomever" has been helping spirits, blah blah. Not to mention the weight of it being Wilson, the two being somewhat rivals. 

Now there's still the concern of "... the Nightmare Throne altered him in ways that are not fully understood," and his continued use of nightmare fuel. You'd think he'd learn by now.

Wigfrid
I don't have anything to say about Wigfrid really. She's in-character 99% of the time, and we technically, probably don't even know her real name. There's a lot to be wanted from Wigfrid's story.

Webber
Webber's loading screen says that he sees his condition as a "second chance"—which I've always wondered why he lost his first. I think throwing him in the "bad" basket just because he's a monster is silly. We don't have much reason to believe his spider is much of a problem either. The child side seems to have the most control, at least vocally. With most statements being "I", the child, "we", both, or "him", the spider.

Winona
Winona was brought through by other means. I would say she's the most sensible, and mentally stable, of the group, and yes, virtuous. Since she ended up in the Constant in an attempt to find and save her sister.

In short, yeah I think initially some selfish desire ended up landing the characters in the Constant (apart from Winona, and maybe Wendy). However, after being there, especially with the other survivors they have developed as people to become more than they once were.

[FreyaMaluk]

18 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

@FreyaMaluk 

On Willow:

True, but I would like to clarify three things: first, the aunts, maybe, were not as cruel as we thought: maybe Willow had been causing problems for a long time, the aunts not being able to see the shadow didn't have our understanding of Willow's behaviors.
Second: presumably in the orphanage there were other children like Willow (the room where she slept was full of beds, in a gigantic villa). Presumably they are all burned to death.
Third: it was an accident, but Willow never shows remorse. Not even a little. This indicates that or she has removed the event (perhaps it was too traumatic); or she does not realize the gravity of the action she has taken. I would exclude that she is sadistic and intimately cruel, but in any case the overall picture is of a person who I think is regrettable and that I would keep away. 

(But as a character I love Willow, of course )

"problematic" children are and have been defined based on various criteria that are often used to make them seem as not worth it and from what we saw in the video they take Bernie away cuz Willow is scared. Other (normal) person might try to talk to get or confort her, but they slammed her with the door and took Bernie. I don't think they are very nice. 

There is no hard evidence there are other children there. 

Remorse comes after the fact.. She at the moment is pretty much in an adrenalin high at that point. 

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Webber
Webber's loading screen says that he sees his condition as a "second chance"—which I've always wondered why he lost his first. I think throwing him in the "bad" basket just because he's a monster is silly. We don't have much reason to believe his spider is much of a problem either. The child side seems to have the most control, at least vocally. With most statements being "I", the child, "we", both, or "him", the spider.

 

his first chance ended with being eaten

[Zeklo]

Just now, GenomeSquirrel said:

his first chance ended with being eaten

That's the obvious assumption, but not necessarily the accurate one. 

[Pop Guy]

22 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

[...]

First of all I would like to specify that, except when explicitly written, I do not consider people like Wendy, Webber or others as "bad", "cruel" or other. Simply, for various reasons, they do not seem positive to me.
Indeed, I find Wendy a character with many virtues, but overall she is morbid and pathological.

22 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Maxwell
Maxwell is a bit iffy. According to Wickerbottom he's sweet once you pull away the ego, which is probably true if he becomes more akin to his old self. It's his motivators that are the most concerning. Take his WX-78 Ghost quote: "A shame about your death. You were the only one I half-liked." However, not all said words are necessarily true. His Wilson Reviver quote is touching: "%s is a real pal..." He does say it reluctantly, but it's powerful because it's not just "informative" like the others. i.e. "whomever" has been helping spirits, blah blah. Not to mention the weight of it being Wilson, the two being somewhat rivals. 

Now there's still the concern of "... the Nightmare Throne altered him in ways that are not fully understood," and his continued use of nightmare fuel. You'd think he'd learn by now.

Surely Maxwell has changed a lot since he fell from the throne.
But in my opinion it does not erase all the evil he has caused. 

22 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Webber
Webber's loading screen says that he sees his condition as a "second chance"—which I've always wondered why he lost his first. I think throwing him in the "bad" basket just because he's a monster is silly. We don't have much reason to believe his spider is much of a problem either. The child side seems to have the most control, at least vocally. With most statements being "I", the child, "we", both, or "him", the spider.

We do not know when and how the spider side could take over. It is too dangerous an unknown factor, in my opinion.

 

[S19TealPenguin]

3 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

She even shows signs of getting better/opening up. One of my favorite being: "That looks... f-fun..." When examining the sculpting table.

The most interesting one is for the feather pencil: "M...maybe I'll doodle something... When no one's looking."

 

To me this can go several ways:

1. This is all a charade, Wendy just wants attention. (very unlikely)
2. Wendy acts depressed because she feels that doing anything else will make cause her to "forget" Abigail.
3. Wendy may enjoy how the other survivors help her with her depression, she fears that showing signs of being "on the mend" will cause the survivors to stop helping her.
4. Wendy believes that if she starts to change, the survivors will grow different. Something like "The others see me as the morbid one. if I start being happy will they think that I've been lying to them? Will they leave me?"

[Pop Guy]

11 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

"problematic" children are and have been defined based on various criteria that are often used to make them seem as not worth it and from what we saw in the video they take Bernie away cuz Willow is scared. Other (normal) person might try to talk to get or confort her, but they slammed her with the door and took Bernie. I don't think they are very nice. 

There is no hard evidence there are other children there. 

Remorse comes after the fact.. She at the moment is pretty much in an adrenalin high at that point. 

Surely the aunts behaved badly. But I repeat, the situation is certainly more complex than it appeared, since they could not see the shadows and understand Willow's problems.
Perhaps, during other panic attacks, the child had destroyed other things. The fire at the orphanage may have been only the "final catastrophe". In short, we should have a broader framework to be able to fully judge them.
If there were other children in the building we can't know, but since it was an orphanage and it was full of beds ... I think it's very likely.
Finally, even the adult Willow never shows remorse... I think it is significant.

5 minutes ago, S19TealPenguin said:

Wendy may enjoy how the other survivors help her with her depression, she fears that showing signs of being "on the mend" will cause the survivors to stop helping her.

I really like this interpretation, I find it very sensible and human.
I think Wendy is one of the most psychologically interesting characters in the game.

[S19TealPenguin]

15 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

Surely the aunts behaved badly. But I repeat, the situation is certainly more complex than it appeared, since they could not see the shadows and understand Willow's problems.
Perhaps, during other panic attacks, the child had destroyed other things. The fire at the orphanage may have been only the "final catastrophe". In short, we should have a broader framework to be able to fully judge them.
If there were other children in the building we can't know, but since it was an orphanage and it was full of beds ... I think it's very likely.
Finally, even the adult Willow never shows remorse... I think it is significant.

To add on, at 1:13 of the "From The Ashes" short, you can clearly see a can of pencils and brushes. Additionally, the walls are covered in picture frames and there are plenty of windows and light fixtures, they're obviously trying to make their orphanage seem friendly. While the orphanage staff may be playing into the classic "mean caretakers" trope, they seem to be going for a Tough Love approach. They're obviously wrong in their approach but they aren't monsters.

 

Also, I don't think the orphanage is empty, there are human shaped lumps in the beds. 

Spoiler

That deformation of the blanket can't be just the pillow being under the covers. There is definitely something hard and foot sized there.

 

[FreyaMaluk]

19 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

Surely the aunts behaved badly. But I repeat, the situation is certainly more complex than it appeared, since they could not see the shadows and understand Willow's problems.
Perhaps, during other panic attacks, the child had destroyed other things. The fire at the orphanage may have been only the "final catastrophe". In short, we should have a broader framework to be able to fully judge them.
If there were other children in the building we can't know, but since it was an orphanage and it was full of beds ... I think it's very likely.
Finally, even the adult Willow never shows remorse... I think it is significant.

I really like this interpretation, I find it very sensible and human.
I think Wendy is one of the most psychologically interesting characters in the game.

Many children destroy things, have imaginary friends, imaginary monsters and other crazy bs and that doesn't mean they are "problematic" that's simply a judging value attached to some patterns of behavior. I'm not saying Willow is stable mentally cuz she is clearly not, but just because Wendy has her heart of her sleeve doesn't mean Willow doesn't have remorse.  I think she will probably be in another animation maybe with Wicker that might show that side of her a bit better. 

I don't like that interpretation of Wendy cuz I that means somehow she is faking her depression which is actually a very common theme of people that don't understand how depression works or does to people. Wendy doesn't feel she needs help nor does she seek for help. She is clearly in a state of deep depression and saying that she fears people aren't gonna help her if she doesn't put a false sad fasade is pretty weird tbh. People normally don't fake depression to get attention. They are simply depressed. 

As a character she never asks for help from other survivor playing the victim. She pulls her own weight. 

[Pop Guy]

11 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I don't like that interpretation of Wendy cuz I that means somehow she is faking her depression which is actually a very common theme of people that don't understand how depression works or does to people. Wendy doesn't feel she beeds or seek help. She is clearly in a state of deep depression and saying that she fears people aren't gonna help her if she doesn't put a false sad fasade is pretty weird tbh. People normally don't fake depression to get attention. They are simply depressed. 

Although I am not a psychologist, I assure you that I know at least the mildest forms of depression. A relative of mine suffers, unfortunately. I specify this because I see that many are afraid of talking about the subject without knowing it. I know a little bit, thankfully.
That being said, I don't think Wendy pretends her depression. Only, it is slowly healing, thanks (perhaps) to the help of those around it. It is as if Wendy had started to build something fragile, and she is afraid that it will collapse. That is why she would hide her improvements: she is not selfish, she is not a liar. She is only afraid that the fragile serenity she has conquered can crumble, and instinctively she always shows herself the same. I see nothing wrong with the fear of suffering. That is why it seems to me very human behavior.

[FreyaMaluk]

16 minutes ago, S19TealPenguin said:

To add on, at 1:13 of the "From The Ashes" short, you can clearly see a can of pencils and brushes. Additionally, the walls are covered in picture frames and there are plenty of windows and light fixtures, they're obviously trying to make their orphanage seem friendly. While the orphanage staff may be playing into the classic "mean caretakers" trope, they seem to be going for a Tough Love approach. They're obviously wrong in their approach but they aren't monsters.

 

Also, I don't think the orphanage is empty, there are human shaped lumps in the beds. 

  Reveal hidden contents

That deformation of the blanket can't be just the pillow being under the covers. There is definitely something hard and foot sized there.

 

A lump in a bed doesn't make a child. Just a very lazy work of the people dressing the beds. 

Supositions about the Tough Love treatment are speculation. Just go with the facts. 

If there were suposse to be more children we should have seen shoes by the beds and other stuff or the other children running scared from Willow when she starts to jump from bed to bed. Imo Willow is the only one there and unless there is irrefutable proof of that we cannot conclude the opposite based on a lump in a bed. 

[S19TealPenguin]

To preface: I am not an expert on depression

12 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I don't like that interpretation of Wendy cuz I that means somehow she is faking her depression which is actually a very common theme of people that don't understand how depression works or does to people

I don't think she's faking her current condition, but it's undeniable that she is faking something.

Quote

 ". . . When no one's looking"

Wendy clearly is trying to hide her happiness from others. I can be an armchair psychologist and put forward a reasonable (to me) sounding theory, but I can't determine exactly what or why she's hiding.

 

Now that some of the votes are coming in, I'm going to go against the grain and say that WX-78 is the least horrible of them all. WX was built to be emotionless, he can't control that. It seems that he has the capacity to learn, and that is curbing his revulsion to nature.

[FreyaMaluk]

7 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

Although I am not a psychologist, I assure you that I know at least the mildest forms of depression. A relative of mine suffers, unfortunately. I specify this because I see that many are afraid of talking about the subject without knowing it. I know a little bit, thankfully.
That being said, I don't think Wendy pretends her depression. Only, it is slowly healing, thanks (perhaps) to the help of those around it. It is as if Wendy had started to build something fragile, and she is afraid that it will collapse. That is why she would hide her improvements: she is not selfish, she is not a liar. She is only afraid that the fragile serenity she has conquered can crumble, and instinctively she always shows herself the same. I see nothing wrong with the fear of suffering. That is why it seems to me very human behavior.

Again the " thinks perhaps" stuff is just speculation that has no evidence. Pls quote her. She doesn't really fear people not liking her for her depression. She just is depressed and she likes to be sorrounded by ghosts. She is morbid and depressed... That's it. That's doesn't mean she is playing mental chess thinking pleope are not gonna like her cuz she is somehow recovering from depression which is again a bit Suposition that has absolute no base in the game. 

5 minutes ago, S19TealPenguin said:

To preface: I am not an expert on depression

I don't think she's faking her current condition, but it's undeniable that she is faking something.

Wendy clearly is trying to hide her happiness from others. I can be an armchair psychologist and put forward a reasonable (to me) sounding theory, but I can't determine exactly what or why she's hiding.

 

Now that some of the votes are coming in, I'm going to go against the grain and say that WX-78 is the least horrible of them all. WX was built to be emotionless, he can't control that. It seems that he has the capacity to learn, and that is curbing his revulsion to nature.

Pls quote where u see she is faking something. Don't just suposse she is faking cuz u feel she might. 

She is not hiding her happiness cuz she is not happy. if you don't know that u clearly don't get her. She is not happy that's the whole point and somehow saying she is faking her state is pretty weird to say quite honestly. 

[Pop Guy]

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Again the " thinks perhaps" stuff is just speculation that has no evidence. Pls quote her. She doesn't really fear people not liking her for her depression. She just is depressed and she likes to be sorrounded by ghosts. She is morbid and depressed... That's it. That's doesn't mean she is playing mental chess thinking pleope are not gonna like her cuz she is somehow recovering from depression which is again a bit Suposition that has absolute no base in the game. 

We have two visions of the thing a little different, that's okay :'D

However Wendy is Maxwell's nephew, it seems to be a family gift being "Machiavellian" 

(By Kaddson of Deviantart)

[S19TealPenguin]

4 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Pls quote where u see she is faking something

"M...maybe I'll doodle something... When no one's looking."

5 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

She is not hiding her happiness cuz she is not happy.

She's not happy all the time, but she still has some fun.

Spoiler

Feather Hat - "Ca-caw!"

 

6 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

She is not happy that's the whole point

depressed =/= not happy

 

6 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

somehow saying she is faking her state is pretty weird to say quite honestly.

I never said she was faking the whole thing, I said we she was faking an aspect of it (likely as a result of her depression).