ideas No-Geyser Challenge

[Z0366]

Hi Guys,

I am experimenting in my mind whether sustainability is possible without using any geyser until late game where one could launch rocket for resources.

Here are some of my thoughts. (I haven't even tried).

1. For food we can use regolith to feed shove vole, and keep wild pacus from central machine.

2. It takes only 380 petroleum and oxygen to get 2 tons of staff back from the closest planets, which can be used to fetch many wild hutches for free wild meat. Mass balance is barely possible around 30000km and 40000km. So we can get back ice and worts to make hydrogen and oxygen.

3. The biggest problem is probably water and oxygen, digging out ice biome seems necessary now, but it is still limited. The only way to produce water indefinitely seems to be CO2->slickster->petroleum->natural gas->polluted water and, well, hate to admit it, human output(vomit and toilet).

Mind to share some thoughts?

[MorsDux]

food will not be an issue (natural grown stuff, hatches, voles, pacus, etc..)

if you stay low on dupes (5-10 range) oxygen sources will last you thousands of cycles easy. All slime can be offgassed and deodorized. Algae can be diffused. ice melted and electrolized etc. Crazy amounts of pwater can be found on each map. All that if you avoid spending these resources on food. 

 

[JohnFrancis]

Launch a hydrogen rocket at the closet body and cool the exhaust steam, it's a water positive process so sustainable water. Of course building the catchment system is a different story.

Food is voles and wild peppers for BBQ. Power is solar and petroleum boiler with oil wells, it's water positive. Sustainable forever.

I heard that sour gas has been nerfed again in the new patch and gives even less natural gas now, can anyone confirm this?

[KittenIsAGeek]

I'll skip this one.  I'm currently playing a seed with 4x slush geysers, 3x cool steam vents, 3x NG vents, and 3x gold volcanoes.  I kinda wanna see where I end up now. 

OOps. I misread the first post.  You're wanting ideas for sustainability without using geysers.  Well...

You can conserve a LOT of resources by using Algae terrariums for your O2 supply.  If you collect and filter the PW from the terrariums, you'll get the best efficiency.  If you don't have much algae, then leave the PW there and build deoderizers.  You can use fewer terrariums, but you'll use more water.  Its still more efficient than an electrolyzer, but not by much.

Set up a closed-loop sanitation system with a vent for excess polluted water.  It isn't much, but it does add up over time..

A boiler going form crude to petrol (or NG) is water positive when using an oil well.

Leaving food wild does conserve resources, but it can be tricky depending on how things get laid out.  You may find that you're spending a lot of time just traveling to harvest.  Mushrooms are very conservative on resources and can easily last 500 cycles or more.  A small pacu farm can do wonders as well.  Tame 5 or 10 pacu, then stop feeding them.  You'll get a LOT of meat.

Avoid traps like Mush Bars which will waste your resources. 

[Mullematsch]

Morbs deal with oxygen. Food of portal, shove voles and wild plants. Access water of bathrooms can be used for electrolyzers if you would need hydrogen.

If you stay on low dups, it should be easy. 

[vonVile]

Water and O2 are easy. All you have to do is live off Dupe PW from your bathroom system and pumping in natural PW to run the Sieve, Electrolyzer, and  Carbon Skimmer. Once you get a sustainable food source you'll discover you don't need clean Water to survive, so its basically rationing the natural Water long enough to unlock all Research.

I never figured out how many Dupes it takes to keep a PW based infinite bathroom system going while connected to an Electrolyzer. I think it takes 8-10 Dupes to start gaining a surplus.

[Z0366]

16 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

Launch a hydrogen rocket at the closet body and cool the exhaust steam, it's a water positive process so sustainable water. Of course building the catchment system is a different story.

Food is voles and wild peppers for BBQ. Power is solar and petroleum boiler with oil wells, it's water positive. Sustainable forever.

I heard that sour gas has been nerfed again in the new patch and gives even less natural gas now, can anyone confirm this?

What! Really! A water possitive engine?? Noice, thanks

[Neotuck]

11 hours ago, vonVile said:

I never figured out how many Dupes it takes to keep a PW based infinite bathroom system going while connected to an Electrolyzer. I think it takes 8-10 Dupes to start gaining a surplus.

I have a bathroom loop for 12 dupes and I don't get enough surplus PW to feed a single Thimble Reed.

I have a hard time believing it could supply enough water for an electrolyzer

[KittenIsAGeek]

15 hours ago, Neotuck said:

I have a bathroom loop for 12 dupes and I don't get enough surplus PW to feed a single Thimble Reed.

I have a hard time believing it could supply enough water for an electrolyzer

It used to be a lot more, but you're right: as things stand now, the excess is very minimal.  It does add up over time, which can be a problem if your septic system is a completely closed loop.  

[SakuraKoi]

On 15.4.2019 at 12:01 AM, JohnFrancis said:

Launch a hydrogen rocket at the closet body and cool the exhaust steam, it's a water positive process so sustainable water.

Some math on that please, after all, the process is only water positive if the produced steam is 8.93 times the mass of the required hydrogen.

The (backspace&Ctrl+F4) debug tool should proof helpful with that since one can build a rocket in a vacuum at varying depths while the selection tool can measure the mass easily.

 

Otherwise, yes, no, there are no other means than geysers to sustain a colony of any size infinitely unless you "exploit" like 2-4 Morbs per Dupe. Neither toilets nor stuff from space travel is resource positive. A vomiting and incontinent dupe can also not sustain another.

[GemeinerJack]

Sustainability without geysers...

Oilwell into Natgasboiler to Natgas gens: netgain +666,5g/s pwater (not calculating in the natgas from the oilwell itself)

Per dupe: +11g/s pwater

Food: There are some fish ranch designs which allow for minimal algae use while building up a big count of pacus which no longer need any algae and still sustain population, i think 16 pacus if you feed your dupes the raw meat, so that would be a just a matter of time until you no longer need any ressources for food production + wild growing stuff is also quite good. I think 10 wild sleath per dupe...

 

So  2 Oilwells into Boilers into Nat gas gen gives you enough excess water (1333g/s) to sustain an electrolyzer (1000g/s) and enough pincha pepper (233,3g/s) for bbq (with a algae less fishfarm) to sustain a 8 dupe colony with still some extra water left.

If you also build up a drecko farm based on balm lillys for fertilizer you can even exchange some water consumption for dirt consumption (which you could generate with excess meat production). With fertilizer the pincha pepper farm would only need 122,1g/s to sustain 8 dupes

A third Oilwell would allow you to go up to a 16 dupe colony (feeding all extra water into electrolyzers)

16 dupes in turn would produce around 175g/s water which is sadly not enough extra to sustain a pincha pepper farm for all of them (would need 244,16g/s extra)

but you could make a 2 class system, where you have 5 eat raw meat and the other 11 eat bbq

All is assuming my numbers are correct (66% conversation from crude oil to nat gas) and not using the natgas produced by the oil wells (since i don't have those numbers)

[SakuraKoi]

38 minutes ago, GemeinerJack said:

Sustainability without geysers...

Oilwell

I suppose I should have mentioned that at least I consider Oil Reservoirs to be included in this challenge (after all, they look like Geysers)... since, indeed, previously I have also noticed that one gains more water than one spends, literary powering the oilwell itself with water to spare.

Natural Gas is by the by generated at a rate of 33.3 g/s. Those 24,975 g/s of water at best can sustain one additional deep diver dupe when utilizing all three Oil Reservoirs.

 

Oh and regarding CO2->Petroleum, the problem here is how to produce it in quantities that can just sustain one dupe. After all, without geysers the "bottomless" mines for CO2 are... Duplicants, 2 g/s or 1g/s Petroleum. While I have not the precise math at hand... 

the best destination for getting water are Organic Masses, one is always spawned at 50k km.

To reach it with a Petroleum Engine and two Cargo Bay (better ratio than one), one needs 1601 of both, Petroleum and Liquid Oxygen

i.e you get 2t of (polluted) water which translates into

1776kg of Oxygen (Electrolyzer, Algae Terrarium is actually better but Algae is also finite) and 224kg Hydrogen (let's leave that for later)

meaning you get actually gain only 1776-1601=175 kg Oxygen for 1601 kg Petroleum/3202 kg of CO2/1 501 000 seconds/2502 cycles of breathing/of one dupe

adding the Hydrogen...it's not much more (every 4th flight you get one flight which adds 894/4=>223.5 kg per Petroleum flights) and I am afraid the calculation ends up somewhere weird if I go further. Since every 4 hydorgen flight comes with an extra flight and every 4 extra flight is an extra extra, I think the bonus flights may accumulate to 3.73737373[...] if I am not too mistaken. I may very well am, a little bit, such math is not my forte. 

Ultimately the figure I can present is 414.205 kg Oxygen for 1601 kg Petroleum => Sustains 6.9 (or double of that) Dupes for a cycle when spend constantly (which again presents a problem since to breath out 1601kg of CO2 each cycle, you need 2668 Duplicants.

Every 687th Duplicant can sustain one extra (or every 193rd)

On a related side note, each Oilwell (the natural natgas of it) would be worth 5,55 Duplicants but you would not have problems in the first place

[Neotuck]

7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

It used to be a lot more, but you're right: as things stand now, the excess is very minimal.  It does add up over time, which can be a problem if your septic system is a completely closed loop.  

That's why the Thimble Reed is there, to soak up all the extra PW.  But it's stiffed most of the time

 

  

[JohnFrancis]

5 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

Some math on that please, after all, the process is only water positive if the produced steam is 8.93 times the mass of the required hydrogen

The relevant info you requested, you get about 1800 Kg of water total for a full launch and landing. To send a Hydrogen rocket with one cargo module to the nearest body takes 166kg of hydrogen. So you would spend 1361kg of the water making more Hydrogen the rest is effectively free. Also you would generate about 800kg of oxygen and a cargo wagon of resources from a carbon asteroid as waste product.

[Neotuck]

Spawn Morbs and pufts like crazy (if your comp can handle the FPS)

Get plenty of oxygen and PW

Can sustain dustcap and egg farming

[0xFADE]

On 4/14/2019 at 5:01 PM, JohnFrancis said:

 

I heard that sour gas has been nerfed again in the new patch and gives even less natural gas now, can anyone confirm this?

Did they?  Can anyone confirm?

Regarding sustainability you could also try collecting the co2 that asteroids trail in.