Please Please fix these before launch

[ArunPrasath]

Hey all,

First of all, these are pointers, so people: please don't reply saying of course these will be fixed/not fixed.

Really feel these need to be fixed before launching the game from early access:

1. Water Sieve needs to have the fixed 40 degree output removed.

2. Hydrolyser needs to stop outputting air at 70 degrees and should be the same temperature as the input water.

3. Dupes should not get wet feet the moment they touch water - should be rather atleast 3 tiles/ atleast 10kg total

4. Game's story needs to be done

5. (at least a basic)Tutorial needs to be present

6. Aquatuner needs revamp - should not be 14 degree constant cooling+const power consumption (same power consumption for 0.1KG/tick as well as 10KG/tick? - not ok).

7. Game should have an endpoint - rockets on reaching a very far off point should trigger an endgame scenario. Currently we are not heading anywhere.

+other quirks in the game.

do add other stuff that needs to be fixed

[Sasza22]

1 hour ago, ArunPrasath said:

2. Hydrolyser needs to stop outputting air at 70 degrees and should be the same temperature as the input water.

For it to be realisitc the temperature should be somewhere in the 300^oC area. I don`t quite remember the math that was done on that. Anywya it`s pretty easy to cool gasses especially if you put your setup next to an AETN. Seems like a non issue for me.

1 hour ago, ArunPrasath said:

4. Game's story needs to be done

I`m pretty sure the story will be done at release as well as an endgame.

[D.L.S.]

8 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

2. Hydrolyser needs to stop outputting air at 70 degrees and should be the same temperature as the input water.

 

6 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

For it to be realisitc the temperature should be somewhere in the 300^oC area. I don`t quite remember the math that was done on that.

IRL temperature should be same if efficiency of electrolysis 100%.

In game heat capacity of hydrogen too low(compared to RL) so in case of equalizing temperature of water and output gasses you will lost heat(heat capacity of water: 4.179, heat capacity of hydrogen: 2.4, oxygen: 1.005, oxygen:hydrogen mass ratio 0.888:0.122, so heat capacity of o2:h2 mix according to their mass ratio would be 2.4*0.122 + 1.005*0.888 = 1,18524), so if you take 1kg of water at 300K and turn into 1kg of o2-h2 mix gases at same 300K you will have|: 1000*4.179*300 = 1253700J of energy turns into 1000*1.18524*300 = 355572J, you lose ~72% of heat energy, basically you will kill a lot of heat, it will be same thing as watersieve. According to this heat capacity difference in game electrolyzer should increase temperature of output gases to conserve heat energy, ofc not to constant 75C, but by some constant value and this value is 757C, i.e. with water input 27C you will have gases output at 27 + 757C, if properly conserve heat energy... and this is for 100% efficient electrolyzer.

 

8 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

6. Aquatuner needs revamp - should not be 14 degree constant cooling+const power consumption (same power consumption for 0.1KG/tick as well as 10KG/tick? - not ok).

Personally i think its more gameplay feature, so player put some efforts to optimize the process, add some automation and stuff. If fix this gameplay become more simple.

[Guest]

So 1,2,3 and 6 are all just the same old argument about fixed temp. 

13 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

4. Game's story needs to be done

I can't speak for anyone else but I think this should be the least important thing on Klei's plate. I would be happier with no story and more bugs fixed.

13 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

7. Game should have an endpoint - rockets on reaching a very far off point should trigger an endgame scenario. Currently we are not heading anywhere

The game could use some victory conditions. I would be unhappy with an endgame scenario that ended gameplay.

[natanstarke]

14 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

Hey all,

First of all, these are pointers, so people: please don't reply saying of course these will be fixed/not fixed.

Really feel these need to be fixed before launching the game from early access:

1. Water Sieve needs to have the fixed 40 degree output removed.

2. Hydrolyser needs to stop outputting air at 70 degrees and should be the same temperature as the input water.

3. Dupes should not get wet feet the moment they touch water - should be rather atleast 3 tiles/ atleast 10kg total

4. Game's story needs to be done

5. (at least a basic)Tutorial needs to be present

6. Aquatuner needs revamp - should not be 14 degree constant cooling+const power consumption (same power consumption for 0.1KG/tick as well as 10KG/tick? - not ok).

7. Game should have an endpoint - rockets on reaching a very far off point should trigger an endgame scenario. Currently we are not heading anywhere.

+other quirks in the game.

do add other stuff that needs to be fixed

For fixed outputs, this IS the CORE mechanic of the game, steam turbine, oil ref, etc all use this concept it is INTENDED, change this would change all the balance everywhere, this can be done? yeap, Needs to be done? not really by a large margin.

Game story and POIS for sure.

Aquatuner should wait 10 kg to start processing.

I would like a more fun than reach the end starmap end game but the game needs it for sure.

 

 

[SharraShimada]

I dont agree on some terms, but do on others.

Water sieve 40°C is a thing, that can be used for "cheating", but without new players will have to deal with heat problems right from the start, while they try to figure out how things work. 

Eletrolyzers are emitting 70°C because the process of splitting water to hydrogen and oxygen generates heat as a byproduct. Thats reasonable. 

Story... would be nice, but wont matter. If there is a story you can read, or if theres not, wont affect the gameplay at all.

Tutorial can be build in as a small map to teach the very basics of building, digging, doing basic stuff, but not more. The rest should be learing by doing, or reading/watching in the forums/Youtube. Its no fun, if you´re teached everything.

Aquatuners should definitly use power relatively to the amount of liquid. Same to thermo regulators. 

Game goal... not so much a fan of. Its an open end sandbox game. You make your goals, you play, as long as you see fun in it. Indirectly, there is a goal: Do everything, explore everything, exploit the space, and get to a point, where nothing else more makes any sense. Do we really need a message "you´ve achieved everything, please start new"?

[goboking]

40 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

Game goal... not so much a fan of. Its an open end sandbox game. You make your goals, you play, as long as you see fun in it. Indirectly, there is a goal: Do everything, explore everything, exploit the space, and get to a point, where nothing else more makes any sense. Do we really need a message "you´ve achieved everything, please start new"?

Do we need an end game?  No.  Do they?  Yes.  Yes they do.  The truth is gamers today are conditioned to chase objectives, be they unlocks, achievements, or win conditions.

In my day Battlefield had a choice between two weapons per class (a faction-specific weapon and one unlockable weapon), and we played the holy hell out of those games because they were fun.  These days Battlefield games have scores of unlockable weapons, each with about a dozen unlockable attachments, plus unlockable camos and other cosmetics, gadgets, assignments, and achievements.  And the moment someone grinds through all of this "progression" they start to lose interest because "there's nothing left to do".

So, generally speaking, players do indeed need a message telling them they've won.  That's just where the gaming culture is today.

[ArunPrasath]

17 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

For it to be realisitc the temperature should be somewhere in the 300^oC area. I don`t quite remember the math that was done on that. Anywya it`s pretty easy to cool gasses especially if you put your setup next to an AETN. Seems like a non issue for me.

I'm not sure where you got the info for 300 degrees, but I've been near an actual hydrolysis machine and I saw that the current was only used to split the molecules apart. The temperature never reached anywhere near 300 degrees (the plastic would have melted if it went anywhere above 100C even)

[Oozinator]

On 2.4.2019 at 6:26 AM, ArunPrasath said:

I'm not sure where you got the info for 300 degrees, but I've been near an actual hydrolysis machine and I saw that the current was only used to split the molecules apart. The temperature never reached anywhere near 300 degrees (the plastic would have melted if it went anywhere above 100C even)

If you ask me, is the mechanic in ONI used electrolysis and not hydrolysis.
In ONI only power and water is added, to crack water - water cracker.
That's why they call it electrolyzer and it has not much to do with hydrolysis.
For electrolysis counts, water temperature has to be below boiling point, but best is, to stay low as you can.
System gets inefficient, when it starts to heat up, the more energy is lost / changed in thermal energy..

[Zarquan]

On 4/1/2019 at 5:40 PM, natanstarke said:

For fixed outputs, this IS the CORE mechanic of the game, steam turbine, oil ref, etc all use this concept it is INTENDED, change this would change all the balance everywhere, this can be done? yeap, Needs to be done? not really by a large margin.

In your opinion.  This used to be necessary before we had space and steam turbines, but now it really isn't necessary.  I avoid using water sieves for cooling by never putting hot water in them and I can still keep my farms nice and cool using wheezeworts and, later, steam turbines (prd mk3).  Same for oil refineries. 

Also, how is this THE core mechanic of the game?  I would argue that thermals, liquid, and gas behaviors are core mechanics, but now fixed output temps.  You could change output temps to match input temps and none of the other mechanics would change.  You can't say that about fixed output temps.  

There is actually a mod that removes most fixed output temps from the game and the game remains pretty much the same unless you excessively depend on this minor counterintuitive mechanic.

[natanstarke]

11 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

In your opinion.  This used to be necessary before we had space and steam turbines, but now it really isn't necessary.  I avoid using water sieves for cooling by never putting hot water in them and I can still keep my farms nice and cool using wheezeworts and, later, steam turbines (prd mk3).  Same for oil refineries. 

Also, how is this THE core mechanic of the game?  I would argue that thermals, liquid, and gas behaviors are core mechanics, but now fixed output temps.  You could change output temps to match input temps and none of the other mechanics would change.  You can't say that about fixed output temps.  

There is actually a mod that removes most fixed output temps from the game and the game remains pretty much the same unless you excessively depend on this minor counterintuitive mechanic.

I call it the core because its present everywhere, oil ref, sieve, steam turb water 95c, polymer press, ice maker, its easier to balance that way i guess. I do not doubt your habilitys to survive without sieve etc, i can do too " now at least before i couldnt ", my argument is more of a " if you change sieve then change every building that gives fixed outputs.

Your point on just get the input temp actually cannot happen because in the process of producing something the temp should change anyway " idk if for more or less" or can happen and im completly wrong :).

Another thing that could happen is the sieve just dump the excess heat into the polluted dirt it produces " or it already does that? And if the input is lower temp no temp is dumped into the outputed dirt.

On a conclusion, it can be tweaked but in my vision its not too important for now, maybe some time after launch or never at all, but that is with the devs.

 

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, natanstarke said:

Your point on just get the input temp actually cannot happen because in the process of producing something the temp should change anyway " idk if for more or less" or can happen and im completly wrong :).

The metal refinery has an effect like that.  Takes the output and adds some energy to it.  This could be applied to the sieve and the other buildings, but with smaller added energy numbers.

1 hour ago, natanstarke said:

Another thing that could happen is the sieve just dump the excess heat into the polluted dirt it produces " or it already does that? And if the input is lower temp no temp is dumped into the outputed dirt.

Unfortunately, there is so much heat deleted when you pump 95 C polluted water in to the sieve that the polluted dirt would be heated by around 6923 C.  I don't want magma in my base.

1 hour ago, natanstarke said:

On a conclusion, it can be tweaked but in my vision its not too important for now, maybe some time after launch or never at all, but that is with the devs.

I feel that it is important simply because people are depending on it.  I think it is a problem that people are dealing with heat in this manner, as it trivializes heat. 

Now, I'm not against heat deletion as a whole.  We don't radiate heat off the asteroid, so we have to remove heat in some other way.  I just don't think the solution should be this simple.

[Nick777]

Personally I prefer magic of heat deletion through machines than through wheezeworts, mainly because I think they look stupid and I am not too fond of running around the map collecting them.  Also some map gens only have 4 wheezeworts.  Without heat deletion, if the asteroid is completely insulated by space then it should always be a hot ball of magma as the outside should never cool.  In RL space is cold because of black body radiation, which is why comets are composed primarily of ice.  When I first played ONI I thought the surface was going to be cold since below it was hot.

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, Nick777 said:

Personally I prefer magic of heat deletion through machines than through wheezeworts, mainly because I think they look stupid and I am not too fond of running around the map collecting them.  Also some map gens only have 4 wheezeworts.  Without heat deletion, if the asteroid is completely insulated by space then it should always be a hot ball of magma as the outside should never cool.  In RL space is cold because of black body radiation, which is why comets are composed primarily of ice.  When I first played ONI I thought the surface was going to be cold since below it was hot.

The issue I have isn't that the machines delete heat, it's the illogical way this water sieve and carbon skimmer do it.  And the shear amount of heat these machines can destroy.

[Nick777]

16 hours ago, Zarquan said:

The issue I have isn't that the machines delete heat, it's the illogical way this water sieve and carbon skimmer do it.  And the shear amount of heat these machines can destroy.

With the machines the game becomes a puzzle where you have to concentrate heat and direct it into the machines, with the plants it's just finding them and putting them on the ground. If they do fix the heat deletion exploits I hope there is something better to replace it than stupid wheezeworts.

[Zarquan]

8 minutes ago, Nick777 said:

With the machines the game becomes a puzzle where you have to concentrate heat and direct it into the machines, with the plants it's just finding them and putting them on the ground. If they do fix the heat deletion exploits I hope there is something better to replace it than stupid wheezeworts.

With the machines, it is not really that much of a puzzle.  Putting an aquatuner down and cooling it with polluted water, then feeding that polluted water to a sieve does not constitute a puzzle in my mind. 

[Nick777]

So the aquatuner heats up the environment, and the puzzle is how to get the heat from the environment into the water sieve.  If put the heat into polluted water then you at least have to pump it into a water sieve so that is 1200 W  + 240 W + 120 W = 1560 W of power, plus designing the aquatuner cooling loop, the polluted water tank and the water sieve input/output path.  With the wheezewort it is just putting the plant down somewhere hot.

[Zarquan]

20 minutes ago, Nick777 said:

So the aquatuner heats up the environment, and the puzzle is how to get the heat from the environment into the water sieve.  If put the heat into polluted water then you at least have to pump it into a water sieve so that is 1200 W  + 240 W + 120 W = 1560 W of power, plus designing the aquatuner cooling loop, the polluted water tank and the water sieve input/output path.  With the wheezewort it is just putting the plant down somewhere hot.

You put the aquatuner in the polluted water, use conductive wiring, and turn on the pump when it gets above a certain temperature.  The aquatuner will never overheat (as long as you keep providing it with polluted water) and the water will never boil.  Power is plentiful, so the power considerations are negligible.  And now, all of your heat problems are solved. 

For the wheezeworts to be useful heat destroyers, you have to have them in hydrogen for them to be effective, make sure they don't get too cold with automation, make sure they don't get too hot with automation, and make sure the heat producers aren't going to overwhelm the wheezeworts.  And you probably don't have enough wheezeworts to cool everything, so you will need more than one setup and choose what needs cooling the most and what doesn't.  There are so many more requirements and decisions for an effective wheezewort build.

On top of that, this uses wheezeworts for their intended function, whereas you are using the water sieve for a function it isn't designed for.  And since there aren't enough wheezeworts pre-space, it can't be your only solution to heat, so part of the puzzle is deciding where they are needed.

The water sieve's constant temperature output trivializes heat.

[lunazone]

If fixed outputs were removed I'd want it to add heat to the output on sieves and what not, but I like fixed outputs how they are

[Nick777]

The amount of heat made needs to be the amount of destroyed. You don't get to decide to cool some things but not others, any extra heat remains in the environment and is accumulative. If a map only gave you 4 wheezeworts and they each can do, at max, 12 kDTU/s of cooling. That means if you did more than 48 kDTU/s of heat, something somewhere would be getting hotter.

Honestly I have never done an aquatuner + water sieve to straight delete heat, it is too trivial I agree with that.  I use polluted water to cool my steam geysers before running the hot polluted water into the sieve, and I use polymer presses to delete heat from 460 C petroleum I run through my metal refinery, because I am not going to wait cycles and cycles for wheezeworts to cool the immense heat that comes from making steel.   For the rest of my cooling I use an AETN but their use is limited to the amount of water you have have available to make hydrogen.

As for maps with lots of worts, cooling is trivial.  You put them in a box of hydrogen and run radiant liquid pipe through it.  The only automation you need is to keep your pipes from freezing.  And if you have a whole lot of worts you just put them on the ground next to whatever is making heat.

34 minutes ago, Squeegee said:

If fixed outputs were removed I'd want it to add heat to the output on sieves and what not, but I like fixed outputs how they are

Either they could add heat to the output or they could take heat damage if the input is too hot, or they could take extra heat from the input and put out into the environment making them a sort of aquatuner.  For the polymer press they should actually reduce the power needed the hotter the petrol you send it since you are doing some of its work for it.