The elaborate feedback.

[Silvi]

I've been toying with the idea of giving a feedback after finally finding enough time to play the game again this weekend. So, before the winter update hits us hard, I want to share some thoughts. The game definitely evolved since December, when I started playing, and most of it is in the 'fun' direction, yet is also way too easy to manage, and below I explain why. Keep in mind it's my personal opinion and feedback, not truth I wish to force onto everyone.1. Insanity is way too easy to manage. You can eat some monster meat in the morning, slaughter a few beardlings and then calmly chomp some homemade meals and you're golden. This gives way too much control to the player and such control eliminates the threat element from the insanity. 2. Eating raw meat and fish shouldn't count towards insanity and eating crock pot dishes shouldn't remedy insanity. Sushi is raw fish. Tartar is raw meat. But that's not the only reason. The food counting towards sanity/insanity is the main reason behind point 1. It gives us total control over insanity. Why should this be the case? And why can I go insane and recover as many times during the day as I want to? Woudln't it be harder and harder to crawl from iinsanity back to sanity every time we slip into madness?3. To give some constructive feedback to 1 and 2: the insanity 'recovery items' should be removed (at least to some degree) and the insanity should drop at all times, both at night and during the day (recovery during the day sounds odd to me. You're still trapped and you still have another night to look forward to. If anything that woudl make us go more insane with worry.) Yes, there should be wasy to recover sanity, but not such drastically easy ones like munching a few chicken nuggets MADE OUT OF HONEY AND MONSTER MEAT might I add. Gradual approach of a looming threat is much more stressing than a controlled period of insanity.4. Insanity monsters. I'm very lukewarm about them. On the one hand they're very cool but on the other they're just a cheap death. I'd much prefer them to show up and start following you at sanity 20-30, stick even closer when insanity is approaching and attack when it's at 0 so that I know 0 means monster attack.5. Love the hands that steal fire. Love them.6. Honey is still the ultimate remedy that fixes everything. All 3 meters can be managed with enough honey and a handful of vegetables or monster meat.Tl;dr: Insanity is way too easy to manage in that it's entirely up to the player when he or she gets insane and when to recover from it. Food causing insanity and being a remedy for insanity is bananas and also gives way too much power to the player. It's way too easy to farm beardlings for nightmare fuel by just going insane in the morning and recovering from it by lunchtime or before afternoon tea and scones.So that's my feedback there. Quite eager to hear what the rest of you think about it all.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Silvi
STILL typos

[Palpetinus]

I would discuss that with you now, but we already did that.So..All i can say, is that i agree.+1

[InSpace]

1 They should nerf the crockpot meals to only regain something like 5 sanity, and taffys should restore around 10-15 and pumpkin cookies 20, also . Using 1 food item and 3 sticks shouldn't restore almost as much sanity as taffys.2 There should be something to hinder us from losing all sanity by going through the wormhole a couple of times. Add a timer between wormhole jumps, you should only lose sanity the first time and after that you get free jumps without losing sanity, until the timer has gone out and then you lose sanity once again and start a new timer.

[LtShinySides]

I agree completely. Within 5 days I have complete control over my sanity because I can make a tophat.

[sirmentlegen]

I feel after winter we can talk about balance.

[Silvi]

I would discuss that with you now, but we already did that.So..All i can say, is that i agree.+1

basically yeah

1 They should nerf the crockpot meals to only regain something like 5 sanity, and taffys should restore around 10-15 and pumpkin cookies 20, also . Using 1 food item and 3 sticks shouldn't restore almost as much sanity as taffys.2 There should be something to hinder us from losing all sanity by going through the wormhole a couple of times. Add a timer between wormhole jumps, you should only lose sanity the first time and after that you get free jumps without losing sanity, until the timer has gone out and then you lose sanity once again and start a new timer.

I definitely like that idea of timer between wormhole jumps. And yes, the corockpot meals need a nerf.

I agree completely. Within 5 days I have complete control over my sanity because I can make a tophat.

Top hat and the dapper vest are both just too much. I even stopped making them because I feel like they're not necessary if I eat regularly anyway. But yeah, make tophat and you pretty much don't have to worry about insanity anymore.

[RetroGamer2000]

I like this!+1

[Palpetinus]

My idea to this, is best explained in an example.When you have 20 sanity, you shouldn't just be able to eat tons of food and restore it all in 2 seconds.Instead, you should get invisible +xy sanity/minute.Example: you have 20 sanity.Eating a taffy would raise the invisible "heal over time" to +10/minute (or similar to that), capping at a certain point, maybe the ammount of sanity and insanity is the cap?

[Silvi]

I feel after winter we can talk about balance.

I quite agree, though winter apparently hits after day 30, by then you can have the top hat and all the taffy you can dream of.

My idea to this, is best explained in an example.When you have 20 sanity, you shouldn't just be able to eat tons of food and restore it all in 2 seconds.Instead, you should get invisible +xy sanity/minute.Example: you have 20 sanity.Eating a taffy would raise the invisible "heal over time" to +10/minute (or similar to that), capping at a certain point, maybe the ammount of sanity and insanity is the cap?

I really like the idea of items recovering sanity over time, when I now think about it. It makes sanity a fluid, gradual thing instead of an arbitrary number meter.Capping it is also a good way to hinder the insane in the morning, sane before lunch tactics.

[hqeq umop apsidn]

Although I do see that these points you mention could make the game too easy for people who have played this a lot and become pros, but rather than remove them completely and force everyone to conform to your difficulty, I would argue that it would be much easier (for the new players as well as the devs) just to make the option of not using the items that you believe make the game too easy. Some people want to be able to farm beardlings to make some effigies to give themselves a safety net in case something unexpected happens (especially for not Wilson characters. you can kill like 10 of them without getting enough beard hair for an effigy. That might take a couple days. getting attacked by hounds while defending your fire from 2 shadow hands is pretty tough). Some people want to play for a long time and want to build an expansive base. I think it would really hurt the playerbase and severely narrow the already niche demographic of this game if it were made too difficult.I hope they don't make the game too incredibly difficult. With the winter update coming I wouldnt be surprised if the cold weathers nerf the farms.

[sirmentlegen]

New players.

Don't balance a game around THE NOOBS!

[Doctor H. Derp]

You see, I'm torn. Now obviously before I begin, I realize that insanity currently still in development and there might be a lot of things added to it and things altered before release, so I could be completely off base, but bare with me for a minute here:

First, yes, insanity in it's current incarnation is very easy to manage, too easy in fact especially when in comparison to health and hunger. It's as simple as making garlands until you craft a top hat really.

Secondly, if this was exactly how insanity was going to be, just as it is, no further additions, not going where I think it's going, then yes things need to be nerfed, it's far too easily managed.

However... if I'm correct, this base of the insanity system is right where it needs to be currently, or at least pretty close. You see out of the 3 balls we have to juggle, insanity is weird. I mean health and hunger is very straight forward: There's never a good reason to be hungry or low on health if you can help it. Having low gauges in either department is basically asking to die. Insanity on the other hand? Well, while the terrorbeaks and crawling horrors are powerful and deadly... they're not nearly as deadly as an empty hunger gauge. The game is designed, at least currently, for you to be able to have a chance at survival even at 0 sanity. Furthermore, there's a distinct incentive to be insane: nightmare fuel. Why?

We must ask ourselves why would they give us an incentive to play the game while on low sanity? I mean it doesn't make sense from a design perspective to have 2 balls that flat out kill you if you get too low and another ball to be, "eh... so what? In fact, here's a benefit for being low on sanity, enjoy."

And if you consider the nature of the Night Armor and Dark Sword, the rewards of going insane and surviving, are equipment designed to keep you insane! Why?

Well, if I were to take a stab at it, I think what insanity really is and why there's an incentive to be insane already there is because I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a 3rd tech structure after the Alchemy Machine that necessitates nightmare fuel to at least build and I also wouldn't be surprised if most of the goodies that are craftable in said new tech tree use nightmare fuel as a component.

It's also a mechanic to separate early game from mid game. A fresh character has very low chance of surviving while insane. A mid game player? Eh. A late game player? Hardly. Not to mention the weapon used to combat insanity creatures with relative ease, the Dark Sword, is very easily crafted on the fly should you need one in a pinch, something a mid game and late game player probably wont have much of an issue accomplishing really.

So if I'm right, that progression is going to eventually hinge on whether or not you're insane, the game is going to have to give you the tools to manage it quickly enough to avoid boring down time. You're going to need tools to raise sanity quickly and you'll need tools to keep your sanity low. If you're fighting hallucinations and you take bad damage, eat too much crock pot food, bam, you can't attack the hallucinations anymore, oh wait, you have the Dark Sword and Night Armor on, you'll be back to insane quickly again and be able to get the nightmare fuel you need to progress.

At least, that's where I see where this is going, and again, I might be completely off into left field, so yeah.

[_Q_]

I would discuss that with you now, but we already did that.

So..

All i can say, is that i agree.

+1

^This 10chars

[hqeq umop apsidn]

Don't balance a game around THE NOOBS!

There has to be some entry level. And even for non-noobs, some people don't want to have to be completely stressed out while playing the game. Im not saying to balance the game to make it super easy, but you can always choose not to do things you think will make the game less than Very Hard mode.You can always play Wes and refuse to use crockpots.

[Silvi]

Although I do see that these points you mention could make the game too easy for people who have played this a lot and become pros, but rather than remove them completely and force everyone to conform to your difficulty, I would argue that it would be much easier (for the new players as well as the devs) just to make the option of not using the items that you believe make the game too easy.

Some people want to be able to farm beardlings to make some effigies to give themselves a safety net in case something unexpected happens (especially for not Wilson characters. you can kill like 10 of them without getting enough beard hair for an effigy. That might take a couple days. getting attacked by hounds while defending your fire from 2 shadow hands is pretty tough). Some people want to play for a long time and want to build an expansive base. I think it would really hurt the playerbase and severely narrow the already niche demographic of this game if it were made too difficult.

I hope they don't make the game too incredibly difficult. With the winter update coming I wouldnt be surprised if the cold weathers nerf the farms.

I dont' want to sound mean or rude or something, but I really need to be honest here. This game is not meant to be easy from the get go, it's meant to be a learning process. The pointers I make are in no way to make the game more difficult either, just to lower the insanity control the players now have. Players attracted to this game usually have enough patience to learn how to survive. So far my friends that I forced to play this game (lol) have, in vast majority, accepted the challenge the game is. If you are deterred by DIFFICULTY in a SURVIVAL game, then I'm not sure if I even know what is logic anymore.

Don't balance a game around THE NOOBS!

I kinda agree with this. Klei is trying hard to please everyone but they can't make a game just thinking about the new players, because then the game will become no challenge at all. Again, Don't Starve doesn't seem to be a casual stroll. It's advertised as a survival game.

You see, I'm torn. Now obviously before I begin, I realize that insanity currently still in development and there might be a lot of things added to it and things altered before release, so I could be completely off base, but bare with me for a minute here:

First, yes, insanity in it's current incarnation is very easy to manage, too easy in fact especially when in comparison to health and hunger. It's as simple as making garlands until you craft a top hat really.

Secondly, if this was exactly how insanity was going to be, just as it is, no further additions, not going where I think it's going, then yes things need to be nerfed, it's far too easily managed.

However... if I'm correct, this base of the insanity system is right where it needs to be currently, or at least pretty close. You see out of the 3 balls we have to juggle, insanity is weird. I mean health and hunger is very straight forward: There's never a good reason to be hungry or low on health if you can help it. Having low gauges in either department is basically asking to die. Insanity on the other hand? Well, while the terrorbeaks and crawling horrors are powerful and deadly... they're not nearly as deadly as an empty hunger gauge. The game is designed, at least currently, for you to be able to have a chance at survival even at 0 sanity. Furthermore, there's a distinct incentive to be insane: nightmare fuel. Why?

We must ask ourselves why would they give us an incentive to play the game while on low sanity? I mean it doesn't make sense from a design perspective to have 2 balls that flat out kill you if you get too low and another ball to be, "eh... so what? In fact, here's a benefit for being low on sanity, enjoy."

And if you consider the nature of the Night Armor and Dark Sword, the rewards of going insane and surviving, are equipment designed to keep you insane! Why?

Well, if I were to take a stab at it, I think what insanity really is and why there's an incentive to be insane already there is because I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a 3rd tech structure after the Alchemy Machine that necessitates nightmare fuel to at least build and I also wouldn't be surprised if most of the goodies that are craftable in said new tech tree use nightmare fuel as a component.

It's also a mechanic to separate early game from mid game. A fresh character has very low chance of surviving while insane. A mid game player? Eh. A late game player? Hardly. Not to mention the weapon used to combat insanity creatures with relative ease, the Dark Sword, is very easily crafted on the fly should you need one in a pinch, something a mid game and late game player probably wont have much of an issue accomplishing really.

So if I'm right, that progression is going to eventually hinge on whether or not you're insane, the game is going to have to give you the tools to manage it quickly enough to avoid boring down time. You're going to need tools to raise sanity quickly and you'll need tools to keep your sanity low. If you're fighting hallucinations and you take bad damage, eat too much crock pot food, bam, you can't attack the hallucinations anymore, oh wait, you have the Dark Sword and Night Armor on, you'll be back to insane quickly again and be able to get the nightmare fuel you need to progress.

At least, that's where I see where this is going, and again, I might be completely off into left field, so yeah.

I haven't thought of that - the fact that out of the 3 stats insanity is the only one which seems to give benefits on its own. Still, that only justifies so much. I feel like we don't necessary need nightmare fuel either - yes it's used in more items now, but you CAN play without it. Meaning insanity is still optional.

Let's not forget that the items made from nightmare fuel are generally sanity-draining - an effect which has no impact as long as you eat a few meals. Tension gone.

I feel like exactly because nightmare fuel is such a useful comodity, it shoduln't be this easy to farm.

[Silvi]

There has to be some entry level. And even for non-noobs, some people don't want to have to be completely stressed out while playing the game. Im not saying to balance the game to make it super easy, but you can always choose not to do things you think will make the game less than Very Hard mode.You can always play Wes and refuse to use crockpots.

I'm on the fence about this. The whole game is a learning process. I don't feel like we need a training or entry level. You just get better as you play the game, there's no magic to it.Playing Wes doesn't make the game that much difficult if you know how stuff works and refusing to use crockpots is an arbitrary self-imposed rule that people MAY take which doesn't remedy the situation

[_Q_]

I'm on the fence about this. The whole game is a learning process. I don't feel like we need a training or entry level. You just get better as you play the game, there's no magic to it.Playing Wes doesn't make the game that much difficult if you know how stuff works and refusing to use crockpots is an arbitrary self-imposed rule that people MAY take which doesn't remedy the situation

We have some difficulty increase in adventure mode, but sandbox should be hard from the start. Also there will be that world config thing, so everyone can set what they want.

[Silvi]

We have some difficulty increase in adventure mode, but sandbox should be hard from the start. Also there will be that world config thing, so everyone can set what they want.

True this, I keep forgeting about the upcomming world config.

[Karma Hound]

I didn't read a single comment in this thread but I'm gonna try to reply correctly....Your feedback was nice and well formatted but I disagree with anything that I disagree upon but respect your opinions on stuff as long as you don't take your own words as fact, now to not see what this thread is about because I don't wanna read long things not that I know if the first comment is long or not...(EDIT: Okay, I skimmed the main post and I think I agree with most of it)

Edited February 25, 2013 by Karma Hound
Skimmy

[Silvi]

I didn't read a single comment in this thread but I'm gonna try to reply correctly....Your feedback was nice and well formatted but I disagree with anything that I disagree upon but respect your opinions on stuff as long as you don't take your own words as fact, now to not see what this thread is about because I don't wanna read long things not that I know if the first comment is long or not...

LOL that is such a splendid comment XD

[hqeq umop apsidn]

I'm on the fence about this. The whole game is a learning process. I don't feel like we need a training or entry level. You just get better as you play the game, there's no magic to it.Playing Wes doesn't make the game that much difficult if you know how stuff works and refusing to use crockpots is an arbitrary self-imposed rule that people MAY take which doesn't remedy the situation

Yeah I understand that this is supposed to be a hard game. I'm not saying to make it easy, but allowing the player some control over sanity I dont think is an incredibly bad thing. Personally I dont even use honey ever because I just don't like bees, and the only thing I use my crockpot for is for making use of monster meat.Idk. I just saw from a lot of these threads, that people can play this game in many different ways, their own style and I liked that the game gave players that option. I'm in no way trying to offend anyone with my disagreement. I'm sure most of the people would agree with you.

[Doctor H. Derp]

I haven't thought of that - the fact that out of the 3 stats insanity is the only one which seems to give benefits on its own. Still, that only justifies so much. I feel like we don't necessary need nightmare fuel either - yes it's used in more items now, but you CAN play without it. Meaning insanity is still optional.

Precisely why I think the rational conclusion is to make it appealing to go insane, IE: the 3rd tech tree with a whole new plethora of craftables that need nightmare fuel and new sciency-nightmare-fuel-machine to make said plethora of craftables.

Let's not forget that the items made from nightmare fuel are generally sanity-draining - an effect which has no impact as long as you eat a few meals. Tension gone.

Which is why they need a stronger incentive to be insane beyond just nightmare fuel and the few craftables that are at our disposal.

I feel like exactly because nightmare fuel is such a useful comodity, it shoduln't be this easy to farm.

It should be if this is going to be a heavy ingredient in a 3rd tech tree with all it's items is what I'm saying.

[Silvi]

Yeah I understand that this is supposed to be a hard game. I'm not saying to make it easy, but allowing the player some control over sanity I dont think is an incredibly bad thing. Personally I dont even use honey ever because I just don't like bees, and the only thing I use my crockpot for is for making use of monster meat.Idk. I just saw from a lot of these threads, that people can play this game in many different ways, their own style and I liked that the game gave players that option. I'm in no way trying to offend anyone with my disagreement. I'm sure most of the people would agree with you.

I'm by no means for removing all control over sanity, I'm for making it less abusable. Giving the player an option to go insane and recover from it within 60 seconds to me is just too much, too arbitrary.There are many ways to play the game and there would still be many ways to do it, even if insanity was a gradual thing. I feel like it woudln't rise the difficulty, it would only remove the obvious exploit behind it all: farming nightmare fuel without much danger involved.

[Silvi]

Precisely why I think the rational conclusion is to make it appealing to go insane, IE: the 3rd tech tree with a whole new plethora of craftables that need nightmare fuel and new sciency-nightmare-fuel-machine to make said plethora of craftables.

As it is the game encourages you to only go insane for a moment and then quickly backs away from any enouragement by having everything jump you. Nightmare fuel is something you can deal without.I agree that if there were actually some amazingly good items you can craft from nightmare fuel, not just armor and sword which can be easily replaced by non-crazy items, people would probably want to experience insanity.But of course this only encourages farming nightmare fuel by the cheap eat monster meat - get fuel - recover method. Making nightmare weapons appealing would have to go hand in hand with changes in the way insanity works....I hope I understood you correctly lol.

[_Q_]

I want insanity to be constant threat you must deal with, not a 3rd tech lvl with go in, farm nightmare fuel, get out.