nat gas cooling power (-140 kDTU) & new steam vent design

[kolyapedal]

Have you ever realized the magic capacity of nat gas generator to transform something with heat capacity 2 into something with heat capacity 5? Besides you need to cool the generator down only one time and then delete only 10 kdtu. So you get "your cold" very easily & and you can use it to cool that generator as well. You might think about something like that:

 

Spoiler

 

but it doesn't work. The generator makes heat faster than the cold he made could absorb that heat. So we need to make that process faster. I used the aquatuner which is cooled down with the "cold" from the generator. This way I keep the possible minimum temperature of the generator.

Spoiler

 

[Vhzord]

Cool findings!

Is this build "cooling" positive?

[Lifegrow]

On 10/11/2018 at 5:41 AM, kolyapedal said:

Have you ever realized the magic capacity of nat gas generator to transform something with heat capacity 2 into something with heat capacity 5? Besides you need to cool the generator down only one time and then delete only 10 kdtu. So you get "your cold" very easily & and you can use it to cool that generator as well. You might think about something like that:

I think this is how a lot of us have been using them for some time.

In my most recent playthrough I opted for an aquatuner that was being used to boil oil -> petroleum to feed petroleum gens. This aquatuner cooled a supercoolant filled radiator to around 16 degrees which cooled 20 nat gas gens and 6 petroleum gens. This gave me a constant supply of lovely chilled polluted water/co2.

Spoiler

It's a lovely build to get up and running, but it does feel incredibly cheaty once it's all built and automated. I didn't go to the extent of turning it into ice as I wanted to use the water elsewhere, but you can go as far as supercoolant allows basically. Great work though bud, nice vid  

[Coolthulhu]

You can also do the reverse: cool things with steel (or better) generators by heating them and their fuel above 125C.

The polluted water output will always be in liquid phase and below 125C, so a petroleum generator can soak a fair bit of heat.

[Segato]

Can somebody translate in dummy language what is happening? How a Nat Gas help cooling the Aquatuner?

 

Thanks

[badimo]

1 hour ago, Segato said:

Can somebody translate in dummy language what is happening?

The groovy music makes you want to get up and dance!

Also, the polluted water output temperature is the same temperature as the natural gas generator itself so you can create interesting builds to augment your cooling.

[Craigjw]

If groovy music is also applied to the petrol generator, will that also make me want to get up and dance, and as the output of the petrol generator is higher, will I want to dance more?

[badimo]

6 hours ago, Craigjw said:

If groovy music is also applied to the petrol generator, will that also make me want to get up and dance, and as the output of the petrol generator is higher, will I want to dance more?

It follows a very similar formula.  Groovy music is measured in GMUs (Groovy Music Units).  Similar to the NGG (Natural Gas Generator), the GMUs required to create groovy music is less than the total GMUs output.  The frequency of the groovy music will be the same as the person or building producing it.  This is advantageous because you can use the outputted GMUs as an input for further groovy music creation leading to a circular net gain of GMUs.  I imagine Klei borrowed this concept to create the NGG cold (or hot) creation loop.

With regards to the NGG, I would imagine applying GMUs to a NGG would lead to net gain of GMUs at the same frequency as the NGG is currently.  However, I haven’t had a chance to test it in debug.  Let me know what you find.  I think it is safe to say that a groovy NGG is much better than a non-groovy NGG.

[avc15]

ugh, all the best cooling solutions are so exploity. 

I have seen this concept used before, good write-up though.

I wish good industrial scale cooling revolved around shooting hot coolant of your choice into space. Even the steam turbine seems really contrived.

[kolyapedal]

On 12.11.2018 at 5:59 AM, Lifegrow said:

In my most recent playthrough

Personally I find your playthroughs the most interesting 

[Xheotris]

On 11/13/2018 at 10:26 AM, avc15 said:

ugh, all the best cooling solutions are so exploity. 

I have seen this concept used before, good write-up though.

I wish good industrial scale cooling revolved around shooting hot coolant of your choice into space. Even the steam turbine seems really contrived.

I justify it by imagining the asteroid is 3D, and the turbine includes a massive radiator fin sticking out the side into space. Otherwise, why would a giant reverse-fan be so far up the tech tree?

[Craigjw]

On 13/11/2018 at 5:26 PM, avc15 said:

ugh, all the best cooling solutions are so exploity. 

I have seen this concept used before, good write-up though.

I wish good industrial scale cooling revolved around shooting hot coolant of your choice into space. Even the steam turbine seems really contrived.

If you have a pool of water on the edge of space, run your hot pipes through it, it boils the water off into space.  Not quite the same having a gun that shoot all your waste into space, but similar.

[mathmanican]

On 11/13/2018 at 9:40 AM, badimo said:

 This is advantageous because you can use the outputted GMUs as an input for further groovy music creation leading to a circular net gain of GMUs.

But our GMU pump capacity is too small.  We need pumps that can handle more GMU's, otherwise we are forced to resort to automated synchronized door pumping (which if you set up correctly (using this carefully constructed SP(GMU)M - guilt-free, no exploit, build) leads to even more GMUs.... 

Loved it @badimo

[Craigjw]

I don't like to think of them as exploits, rather that I'm just taking advantage of an inbuilt feature...

[avc15]

52 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

If you have a pool of water on the edge of space, run your hot pipes through it, it boils the water off into space.  Not quite the same having a gun that shoot all your waste into space, but similar.

That's exactly what I mean, This is one realistic method of cooling on an asteroid that comes with water and ice. And I can't really think of another way that's both practical and realistic.

And actually, I'm suddenly inspired to make that the cooling mainstay for my next base.

[Craigjw]

Just now, avc15 said:

That's exactly what I mean, This is a "realistic" method of cooling on an asteroid that comes with water and ice.

And actually, I'm suddenly inspired to make that the cooling mainstay for my next base.

Liquids should boil when exposed to a vacuum, while the temperature should also decrease as the liquid boils off, but neither happens.

It's a cheap way to get rid of some heat and excess water.  In the long run however, it's more efficient to gather up heat with coolant and dump it into a steam generator, while using excess water in electrolyzers in space, gather the Hydrogen, while having the lower side exposed to vacuum, gather lots of Hydrogen and use as power.  Because you aren't gathering the O2, it's completely power positive.

You could push this one step further, dump heat into water, being careful not to reach boiling point and then dump the hot water into the space electrolyzers.

 

[avc15]

2 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

Liquids should boil when exposed to a vacuum, while the temperature should also decrease as the liquid boils off, but neither happens.

It's a cheap way to get rid of some heat and excess water.  In the long run however, it's more efficient to gather up heat with coolant and dump it into a steam generator, while using excess water in electrolyzers in space, gather the Hydrogen, while having the lower side exposed to vacuum, gather lots of Hydrogen and use as power.  Because you aren't gathering the O2, it's completely power positive.

You could push this one step further, dump heat into water, being careful not to reach boiling point and then dump the hot water into the space electrolyzers.

 

dude, context.

I just complained about how every method of cooling the asteroid is unrealistic and exploitive of perpetual motion physics in some way. And that this one way of cooling is the only thing that's both practical and somewhat realistic at the same time.

And then you come back with all the methods that I've just discarded as unrealistic, which I've used in every prior base already

Just, context. You didn't need to give me alternatives in this case.

 

[Iriswaters]

The alternatives listed there were actually all about context.   He specifically talked about putting them at the edge of space.   So that the idea is that you are 'getting rid of' the waste instead of it vanishing.   Like, instead of just letting your water evaporate out into space, if you are going to be wasting mass you might as well eject it at the highest heat possible, and maybe make a final use of it while you are at it.   So use the steam engine but instead of doing funky things to pump it back around, just eject the hot steam into the ether.   Set up hydrogen generators up in space to simulate the waste being ejected, etc.

There are a ton of things that could be done in reality that one -can't- do here.   Like, things should radiate heat into space even in a vacuum, but they don't.   So a heat generating object will quickly turn itself to slag as the heat doesn't go anywhere and metal tends to have a low SHC and so heats up fast.  This is kinda silly, but that's ONI physics for you.  Given that fact, if you want to get rid of heat without using any sort of 'magic'(beyond the obvious magic of worts and heat sinks), you have to get creative.   And some of the best options are going to basically be "use of an exploity thing, But In Spaaaace!!!".

[Craigjw]

What part of my suggestion is unrealistic or exploity?  Everything that I have suggested is free from exploits. 

I do agree with it being rather contrived and complicated to make work though.

[mathmanican]

50 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

Everything that I have suggested is free from exploits.

Depends on what you term an exploit?  Is it an exploit to use the one-element-per-tile rule to have just the O2 vanish into space while saving the hydrogen? 

• Those who focus on reality will always say "Yes - it's clearly an exploit,"
• Those who focus on the fact that one-element-per-tile is a core game mechanic, central to the entire game engine, and it isn't changing anytime soon (unless suddenly processor speeds explode and the devs completely rewrite the entire game engine) will say "Nope. It's a core game feature."

Both views above are fine. However, a constant demand for reality will always lead to disappointment in this game. 

I'd love to see gravity work as gravity should, and then have my dupes jump off 50 tile cliffs only to smash through several tiles at the bottom of their jump (of course their bones can't break - wouldn't want them dying). Then I would do my entire mining in the game by (1) digging up to space and then (2) using freefall to blast through stuff (comets already simulate it, why can't dupes - haha). Of course, if we did this then a single tile of 100kg hydrogen would float BELOW a tile with 16g of CO2 (clearly heavy stuff should be on the bottom).  That would be unacceptable for my airlocks though, and completely break any natural filtration system that I use for my SPOMS or whatnot... I digress. 

Devs, please don't actually add this to the game - unless you change the name to "Freefall Fully Included" or something derpy like that. 

[Craigjw]

Yes, exploit free.  I've taken time to think this through and it was not just some spur of the moment idea.

The space electrolyzer works, because you are powering one pump and filter, not 3 pumps and 2 filters.  You don't need to use the 1 tile filtering.  Even without a mechanical filter, 1 pump, 1 electrolyzer & 1 filter = 480w, which is a net gain of 320 watts, exploit free.

The steam generator, you have two stages, heat up the steam with super hot coolant, then heat up the vat of water with the slightly colder coolant which was used to to further heat up the steam.

The super hot coolant was gained from cooling down aquatuners, used to cool metal volcano's or just the aquatuners that cool some form of coolant.

[mathmanican]

13 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

Yes, exploit free. 

Hi @Craigjw, I completely agree with you that it's exploit free. It relies 100% on one-element-per-tile mechanics.  Oxygen and hydrogen can't share a tile, and hence only the O2 vanishes. Otherwise you'd get both O2 and H2 in your pump (that would be reality - completely not true in ONI).

Happy ONI all.  This game is awesome.  

[Craigjw]

8 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Hi @Craigjw, I completely agree with you that it's exploit free. It relies 100% on one-element-per-tile mechanics.  Oxygen and hydrogen can't share a tile, and hence only the O2 vanishes. Otherwise you'd get both O2 and H2 in your pump (that would be reality - completely not true in ONI).

Happy ONI all.  This game is awesome.  

It does not rely on any 1 tile per square mechanic, pure filter and it'll be power positive.

I do use the 1 tile exploit in game btw, but I also use filters on both Hydrogen and O2 pumps, but then again, I mechanically filter the Hydrogen and O2 also.  if there is any Hydrogen in my O2, the mechanical filter sends it to the proper filter, conversely for my Hydrogen pump.  This turns out to be completely power neutral without engie's tune up.

OMG, Is Engie's tune up considered an exploit too??

[mathmanican]

5 hours ago, Craigjw said:

It does not rely on any 1 tile per square mechanic

Oh, but does gas really perfectly split in nature, with hydrogen going up and oxygen going down? Or does it diffuse with both gases moving in every direction. Of course you aren't using the 1 tile tall "natural" filter that shows up in a SPOM, or in a CO2 airlock, but you are using one-element-per-tile mechanics. Oxygen and hydrogen can't mix, so when the computer creates two new blobs of stuff (O2 and H2), it has to decide where to send them. The "lighter" gas goes up (hydrogen), while the "heavier" gas goes down. Your hydrogen and oxygen are perfectly splitting and giving you your nice juicy power because of this central core mechanic. Remove one-element-per-tile, and you won't get anywhere near the same amount of hydrogen. 

Does that mean you are using an exploit? No way! It's the whole point to this game. Keep it up. It's a great design. I'll keep my oxygen in an infinite storage chamber (using this central game mechanic as well), while you vent yours to space.

But wait - this gets even more wonky. If I'm in a room with 4 squares and I paint 100 kg of hydrogen in the lower left corner, and 100g (1000 times less) of oxygen in the upper right corner, why does the low mass oxygen end up below the high mass hydrogen? Shouldn't the "heavy" thing be below the "light" thing - that's what reality would say - oh, but reality wouldn't allow the two gases to stay separate.... 

In a fire, does smoke (a gas - think hydrogen) only rise to the top of a room, and not down at all? Are you perfectly safe if you stay on the floor, or do some people die in fires because of smoke inhalation even though they were on the floor? Granted the density of smoke is higher near the ceiling than the floor, but smoke is everywhere. All the gases in the room are intermixed, with differing densities throughout the room. Smoke diffuses in all directions, just like hydrogen would diffuse in all directions.  

ONI's core one-element-per-tile mechanic is what gives us so many fun toys to play with. Changing this mechanic would completely change the game. Embracing this mechanics leads to all kinds of non-realistic oddities, a playground of experimentation at our fingertips.  Thanks Klei! Love the game.

[Craigjw]

I'm not venting any O2 to space in my real game, it's being stored in infinite storage   This was just an example to demonstrate that it can be done without using the game interesting mechanics.  I Like the interesting mechanics.  If Klei deem certain things to be exploits, then they will code them out I guess.

I feel that we've derailed the original post.

I started to build my own GMUG but then my dupes colony started to explode and it had to be put on hold.