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So I started a new game.  Again.  I wanted to try rockets, and I wanted to build a base with cool stuff like super coolant and visco gel.  So, after putting in nearly 350 cycles with the explicit goal of trying to get the cool materials available only by sending a rocket to a far-off rock, my rocket comes back with barely a handful of resources - not enough to even add a tick mark to the side of the cargo container. Not even enough fullerine to make a single bottle of super coolant.  So - if I want to produce enough super coolant to actually do something with it - do I need to send 1000 rockets?  Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to equip my dupe with a shovel before they go? Send em with some energy bars? (Side note - maybe there needs to be astronaut rations.  As soon as my dupe enters that command module - does she not need to eat anymore?)

Consider how hard it is to make a rocket with a cargo bay.  Consider how hard it is to keep it safe from asteroids, to cool down the things that you have in space to keep it safe from asteroids, to fill it with steam so you can get enough science to actually learn how to build a cargo bay.  Now you've finally filled this sucker with petroleum, oxylite (because show me a non-exploity way to make liquid oxygen AND get it to to your super-heated rocket without large quantities of insulation and super coolant, plz,).  Then I wait 3 cycles for my rocket to return with basically an empty cargo bay.  WTF.  I imagine now, knowing more what I'm doing, the earliest I could get a cargo bay would be cycle 200, if that was the only thing I was working towards.  Why be so stingy with the rewards for space exploration?  That cargo bay should come back, chock full of awesome, IMHO - we've earned the heck out of that reward.

Of course, I'm probably doing something wrong. Is it that they can't lift off with the extra weight? Maybe if I had more fuel - or used liquid o2 instead (please - I'm serious - how am I supposed to pipe something that's -200 C into a rocket that has blasted its surrounding environment into steel-melting temperatures, without bursting my pipes?  Seriously?) Either way, I'd love for the game to tell me the reason why the cargo bay is hardly getting filled.  Thanks!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Of course, I'm probalby doing something wrong. Is it that they can't lift off with the extra weight? Maybe if I had more fuel - or used liquid o2 instead (please - I'm serious - how am I supposed to pipe something that's -200 C into a rocket that has blasted its surrounding environment into steel-metling temperatures, without bursting my pipes?  Seriously?

Oxygen can't change phase while in the tank. Make sure you empty your pipes after loading the LOX. You need a completely isolated "main LOX tank" somewhere nearby, then let out only enough LOX to load the rocket. Afterwards either empty the pipes (and waste LOX), let the pipes burst (and waste LOX and rock) or build a conduit that can return the overflow back to isolated storage tank.

Also, control the weight as much as you can. Switch to LOX as soon as possible, because oxylite loading is currently bugged hard and dupes will load it to 2700kg no matter what you try to limit it to.

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thanks for the response.  Even disregarding the LOX leftover in the pipe after my rocket is filled - the idea of getting it to the rocket at all without a fully insulated pipe (alas, abyssalite, I knew thee well...) seems preposterous.  I had a hard enough time getting friggin steam into my rocket without bursting my vents as the steam tried to cool.  That went away when my rocket bay became as hot as the surface of the sun - but to that point, even if I somehow make my liquid nitrogen nearby, any pipe I use to send it from that super cold place into the rocket is going to have to cross that really hot region, and that LOX will vaporize. Can this be done without insulation?

Side note - making LOX.  Tried it for about 3 hours last night without a drop of success - first tried chaining 16 thermo regulators in series to cool the oxygen itself.  That was a bust.  Tried piping hydrogen through those 16 regulators, then pipe it into a chamber with oxygen using radiating air pipes. When hydgrogen entered at -230, I'd still not get LOX.  Cooled it a bit more in a kind of closed loop cycle, and I started to burst my vents as I began to liquify the friggin hydrogen.  Sigh. Any advice?

Also - any way to actually get that rocket cargo bay to come back full?  Does it have to do with fuel?

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19 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Also - any way to actually get that rocket cargo bay to come back full?  Does it have to do with fuel?

The cargo bay holds 1000kg of resources. The things it brigs back is based on the planet composition. That said i sent rockets to plantes with trace amounts of fullerene and it brought back enough for 2 bottles of super coolant.

I`m not sure what happened with your rocket. I know there was a bug before causing the cargo to be not full but it was fixed. Was the destination fully researched? Did you load the game with the rocket being in space (it causes bugs and crashes atm)?

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The planet was fully researched and I'd sent a steam rocket there 3 times before (without cargo bay) on research trips.  It just came back with hardly nothin. Maybe it's just a bug? Is the expectation for the bay to be full?  

If so, I'd send no science but load up 4 cargo bays just to haul back a decent supply of the rare materials.  But my assumption ATM is that I'd only get 80kg worth of stuff nomatter how many bays I load.

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48 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

So - if I want to produce enough super coolant to actually do something with it - do I need to send 1000 rockets?

Closer asteroids provide roughly 1kg of fullerene per trip, it is enough to make 200Kg of coolant. That's 20 full pipes, which while not much is far from little. Enough for some systems 'as is'.

P.S. Last time I checked rocket was returning 1t of cargo total regardless of amount of solid cargo containers (but there needs to be at least one), but I hope they will remake it to be either per container or depending on free fuel.

33 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Even disregarding the LOX leftover in the pipe after my rocket is filled - the idea of getting it to the rocket at all without a fully insulated pipe (alas, abyssalite, I knew thee well...) seems preposterous.

It is actually manageable with ceramic pipes in vacuum, just don't hold oxygen in pipe for too long since LOX is slowly gaining heat, it is much harder with hydrogen due to lower temp range.

33 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Cooled it a bit more in a kind of closed loop cycle, and I started to burst my vents as I began to liquify the friggin hydrogen.  Sigh. Any advice?

  1. Use radiant pipes, pipe with hydrogen (preferably coolant) will exchange heat much faster going through oxygen tile then pumped into same room
  2. Speed up heat exchange with joint plates.
9 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I`m not sure what happened with your rocket. I know there was a bug before causing the cargo to be not full but it was fixed. Was the destination fully researched? Did you load the game with the rocket being in space (it causes bugs and crashes atm)?

There is bug where rocket returns without cargo bay at all.

 

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I should note that this has happened twice to two separate planets (the two that are closest to my base).  Do the closer planets simply not give you as much?

6 minutes ago, AndreyKl said:

Closer asteroids provide roughly 1kg of fullerene per trip, it is enough to make 200Kg of coolant. That's 20 full pipes, which while not much is far from little. Enough for some systems 'as is'.

That would be great - wonder what went wrong in my game.  I didn't have enough to do a single batch in my molecular forge.

It's a shame though that loading more solid cargo bays doesn't increase the amount you'd get per trip.  I just want a way to accelerate getting the rare materials other than building a dozen rockets.  One is hard enough to manage.

Do the planets have total supplies of rare materials that can be tapped out over time?  I assume distant planets have higher concentrations of the good stuff.

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6 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Do the planets have total supplies of rare materials that can be tapped out over time?  I assume distant planets have higher concentrations of the good stuff.

No. At the moment resources are infinite.

P.S. But would have been good if there were random small asteroids with limited supply of material that you can either mine completely or they would disappear over time.

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46 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

thanks for the response.  Even disregarding the LOX leftover in the pipe after my rocket is filled - the idea of getting it to the rocket at all without a fully insulated pipe (alas, abyssalite, I knew thee well...) seems preposterous.  I had a hard enough time getting friggin steam into my rocket without bursting my vents as the steam tried to cool.

You need shorter pipes and more overcooled/overheated LOX/steam.

Don't try to pipe it from the other side of the base. The liquifier/steamifier should be literally adjacent to the rocket silo.

Also, try to pipe your LOX through insulated tiles in insulated pipes. I'm ~80% sure that both insulations count in this case, meaning that heat transfer between those should be minimal and the pipe should not be as hot as the silo air.

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1 hour ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Even disregarding the LOX leftover in the pipe after my rocket is filled - the idea of getting it to the rocket at all without a fully insulated pipe (alas, abyssalite, I knew thee well...) seems preposterous.  I had a hard enough time getting friggin steam into my rocket without bursting my vents as the steam tried to cool.  That went away when my rocket bay became as hot as the surface of the sun - but to that point, even if I somehow make my liquid nitrogen nearby, any pipe I use to send it from that super cold place into the rocket is going to have to cross that really hot region, and that LOX will vaporize. Can this be done without insulation?

One method I've tried with success is making a service tunnel of vacuum to run the pipe through. Vacuum is a cheap and perfect insulator. If you go this route, use normal pipes, and prime the pipes with LOX to cool them. The pipes may burst, but so long as you suction out all the freezing oxygen as it comes out of the pipe and repair the pipe with cooled materials, you'll have a perfect system fairly quickly.

Best to build it in the space area, and let the natural vacuum suck it all out, rather than pump it out.

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Lox is really easy to make.

Transporting it however all I can think of is lots of broken pipes from heat transfer.

I was considering cooling down the pipe material inside the lox room before using automation to transport and place the pipes to build so they are built at lox temps.

I expect any launch to heat up the pipes so that doesn’t sound like a reasonable solution. 

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20 minutes ago, crypticorb said:

One method I've tried with success is making a service tunnel of vacuum to run the pipe through. Vacuum is a cheap and perfect insulator. If you go this route, use normal pipes, and prime the pipes with LOX to cool them. The pipes may burst, but so long as you suction out all the freezing oxygen as it comes out of the pipe and repair the pipe with cooled materials, you'll have a perfect system fairly quickly.

Best to build it in the space area, and let the natural vacuum suck it all out, rather than pump it out.

I really like this idea - as my dupe efficency drops preciptously the further I get from my base, I generally try to keep manufacturing processes close-ish then use pipes to reach far flung regions (like my rocket base).  I built a transit tube for my jet-pack dupes but they don't use it! (boo - I'll create a new thread on that).  

It'd be hard to repair busted pipes in the vacuume service tunnel without dupes getting in there to repair it - and if they get in there to repair it, the vacuum will be lost, right?  Unless it's all just in space.

Speaking of which, gas from inside biomes do vent into space over time, right?  It doesn't seem to occur rapidly (like, all of the air should have been violently sucked out as soon as I opened the first hole), but does it happen over time?

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Planets that give more than just "trace amounts" or a few % are

  1. Gas Giants (possibly 100k or 110k away), whatever solid you discover will be brought back by 100%
  2. Organic Mass (50k certainly and maybe beyond), 2/5 are solids which are around 30-50% of the composition meaning anything discovered will have its amount doubled if not tripled
  3. Terrestrial Planet (90k), 2/4 are solids=>around double, maybe more, maybe less, more likely more, on average
  4. Volcanic Planet (90k and 100k) 3/4 are solids, at least a bit more
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7 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

Planets that give more than just "trace amounts" or a few % are

  1. Gas Giants (possibly 100k or 110k away), whatever solid you discover will be brought back by 100%
  2. Organic Mass (50k certainly and maybe beyond), 2/5 are solids which are around 30-50% of the composition meaning anything discovered will have its amount doubled if not tripled
  3. Terrestrial Planet (90k), 2/4 are solids=>around double, maybe more, maybe less, more likely more, on average
  4. Volcanic Planet (90k and 100k) 3/4 are solids, at least a bit more

so wait - SakuraKoi - are you saying that most planets will only give a trace amount of stuff for my solid cargo bay?  (not just rare materials, but all materials?)  So the close plants will only fill it by 5%?  The only planets that will fill it completely are gas giants?  I also don't know what you mean when you say that the amount will be doubled or tripled.  Or are you talking about converting something like fullerine into coolant?

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1 minute ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

so wait - SakuraKoi - are you saying that most planets will only give a trace amount of stuff for my solid cargo bay?  (not just rare materials, but all materials?)  So the close plants will only fill it by 5%?  The only planets that will fill it completely are gas giants?  I also don't know what you mean when you say that the amount will be doubled or tripled.  Or are you talking about converting something like fullerine into coolant?

Cargo Bays should always return with 100% fill i.e 1000kg

If the composition of a planet is

  • 25% X
  • 25% Y
  • 25% Z
  • 25% A

then you get 250kg of each, X, Y, Z and A if all are the same type

if only X and Y are the same type and you have the cargo bay for it, then you get 500kg each

now you discover C, which is the same type as X and Y, it's 4% and decreases X and Y materials to 24%

How much C do you get? Surely not just 40kg (the math is a bit complicated but you can estimate it to be doubled)

If C is the only solid, it automatically becomes 100%, hence why one can also return with only magma or (polluted) water

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2 hours ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

I really like this idea - as my dupe efficency drops preciptously the further I get from my base, I generally try to keep manufacturing processes close-ish then use pipes to reach far flung regions (like my rocket base).  I built a transit tube for my jet-pack dupes but they don't use it! (boo - I'll create a new thread on that).  

It'd be hard to repair busted pipes in the vacuume service tunnel without dupes getting in there to repair it - and if they get in there to repair it, the vacuum will be lost, right?  Unless it's all just in space.

Speaking of which, gas from inside biomes do vent into space over time, right?  It doesn't seem to occur rapidly (like, all of the air should have been violently sucked out as soon as I opened the first hole), but does it happen over time?

To make a vacuum sealed service tunnel, you'll have to either use a pump to drain it to zero, or expose it to space.

To KEEP it sealed, you'll need to build a waterlock. Not all waterlocks are complex though, here's an incredibly simple one:

Spoiler

temp2.thumb.png.839e0178d0065b8ea9ee2bb21f605978.png

If you open that central door, it creates a perfect vacuum between the two drops of petroleum. Dupes will get soggy feet if not in a suit, but who cares? Place a tile of wallpaper behind the petroleum drop to keep from losing it.

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16 hours ago, crypticorb said:

To make a vacuum sealed service tunnel, you'll have to either use a pump to drain it to zero, or expose it to space.

To KEEP it sealed, you'll need to build a waterlock. Not all waterlocks are complex though, here's an incredibly simple one:

  Hide contents

temp2.thumb.png.839e0178d0065b8ea9ee2bb21f605978.png

If you open that central door, it creates a perfect vacuum between the two drops of petroleum. Dupes will get soggy feet if not in a suit, but who cares? Place a tile of wallpaper behind the petroleum drop to keep from losing it.

cool! Sure wish the game had a better perfect air-lock system that didn't feel quite so hacky.  I guess Visco Gel is supposed to be that

19 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

Lox is really easy to make.

Transporting it however all I can think of is lots of broken pipes from heat transfer.

I was considering cooling down the pipe material inside the lox room before using automation to transport and place the pipes to build so they are built at lox temps.

I expect any launch to heat up the pipes so that doesn’t sound like a reasonable solution. 

Really easy to make?  Guess after 250 hours of gameplay I'm still a noob :(

I've tried the last 3 nights to get a single drop of LOX and I've failed every time.  

My current attempt had Hydrogen piped through automation to detect its temp between each thermal regulator, so that I don't accidentally cool the hydrogen too much and liquify it.  I pipe the hydgrogen through the regulators, into the oxygen room with radiated pipes, then dump the hydrogen in a hydgrogen room, where a pump pulls it back in to repeat the cycle.  Only my automation valves really slowed the process down as the H doesn't move freely through the pipes anymore, it sorta pauses to check temp at every regulator - I think it would have literally taken 1000 cycles to get the hydrogen cool enough to liquify the oxygen.

But if I don't do the temp checkers, how can I possibly get the hydrogen to the right temperature range?

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29 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

cool! Sure wish the game had a better perfect air-lock system that didn't feel quite so hacky.  I guess Visco Gel is supposed to be that

Really easy to make?  Guess after 250 hours of gameplay I'm still a noob :(

I've tried the last 3 nights to get a single drop of LOX and I've failed every time.  

My current attempt had Hydrogen piped through automation to detect its temp between each thermal regulator, so that I don't accidentally cool the hydrogen too much and liquify it.  I pipe the hydgrogen through the regulators, into the oxygen room with radiated pipes, then dump the hydrogen in a hydgrogen room, where a pump pulls it back in to repeat the cycle.  Only my automation valves really slowed the process down as the H doesn't move freely through the pipes anymore, it sorta pauses to check temp at every regulator - I think it would have literally taken 1000 cycles to get the hydrogen cool enough to liquify the oxygen.

But if I don't do the temp checkers, how can I possibly get the hydrogen to the right temperature range?

Hmmm, why don't just use loop? Here is my setup. It can be improved may be, but it works for me, enough for 1 rocket at least... actually idle most of a time.

LOX.thumb.png.87699bda374ca5a87f6c03c3aaeec97c.png

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What is making the gas move?  Do the regulators push it through the pipe without a pump involved?

I see your temp sensor there, so you shut off the flow if the hydrogen entering your oxygen room gets below 205?  Interesting.

Also, how many cycles did it take to lower the temp enough to get LOX with this?

 

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16 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

What is making the gas move?  Do the regulators push it through the pipe without a pump involved?

In my setup it's gas shutoff. Bridges, shutoff, valves (not 100% sure) create constant flow of gas/liquid in closed pipe systems.

16 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

What is making the gas move?  Do the regulators push it through the pipe without a pump involved?

I see your temp sensor there, so you shut off the flow if the hydrogen entering your oxygen room gets below 205?  Interesting.

Also, how many cycles did it take to lower the temp enough to get LOX with this?

 

It's actually backwards. Shutoff prevent hydrogen below -208C going into thermoregulator, so they can't recieve cold damage from too cold hydrogen.

I didnt' remember actuall number of cycles to prime system... may be 10.. or less. But after been primed it takes about 2-3 cycles of work after loading rocket, then becomes idle.

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I say it is easy to make because all I was doing was using granite pipes filled with hydrogen in a loop cooled by 4 regulators.  

The piping is a mess but you can configure it with bridges so that the regulators can be turned off when the piped hydrogen gets close to too cold and the loop will continue on.

didnt bother with precooling the oxygen but it would have sped it up.

The 4 regulators run most of the time during the initial cooling so you also have to keep them from overheating which is also not hard.

I use the same design as I use for plastic making where they sit in shallow water that gets cycled away when it gets too hot. 

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7 minutes ago, Jonathan Hoffman said:

Do you cool your oxygen before piping it into the LOX room?

Nope... it's about 40-50c or less... The trick is to form large enough pool of LOX, then it would serves like "cold" buffer for newly arrived oxygen. Priming the system - important. It's too many "hot" elemets (walls, pipes, machines ect) to work 100% effectively right from the start. Preferably build your setup at vacuum to prevent heating of hydrogen in the loop.

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