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I've finally identified why I keep bouncing off this game.


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I bought Oxygen Not Included back in November of 2017. And I'm a bit angry I did.

I've attempted to play it three or four times. I have four separate colony saves, and each one has essentially discouraged me from playing right around the same spot: A little after I've consumed all the available space in the starting biome. But space has nothing to do with my problem.

My saves are on Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Feb 2018, and Oct 2018.

In each save's case I've breached caustic, swamp, or both biomes. In three of the four, I've also breached ice biomes. My very first save was one where I just abandoned and started over, since I really didn't know what I was doing. I still honestly don't, and that's a bit of the problem.

Let me be clear: I love Dwarf Fortress. I'm not a stranger to complex games.

I loved Factorio, and complex Minecraft modpacks, so I'm no stranger to interdependent systems that affect each other.

But I keep bouncing off of ONI.

----

Pretend you're playing an RPG and you need a very specific type of weapon (lets say a bow) in order to defeat a boss (there are no other alternatives, you need a bow).

So you go and get a bow. You beat the boss. And then an hour later, suddenly, you go deaf.

To be clear, neither the bow nor the boss have anything about them to indicate that they're cursed in any way. The bow is just a stick and string. The boss is dead, and you haven't seen any sign of him since you killed him. The plot has moved on, boss forgotten. But for some reason, your character has gone deaf. Not only that, it's a clearly indicated debuff on your character's stats, but no explanation for what it's from, or how to fix it, so it's not a problem with your cord coming loose or anything.

But the RPG is in 'Early Access', and maybe you've hit a bug, so you set the game aside and come back and start over after several patches have redesigned the game.

And you get the same problem. An extended period of time (hours) after killing that boss with a bow (any bow), you go deaf in game.

----

Before I go on, I already know that what I'm about to say has been said before. I already know it's been argued on the forums, and likely in chat rooms, etc. But it's worth saying again, because it's important.

----

An hour or two of research later, and you discover that in this game, bow string vibrations (not magic, just the sound of the vibration) cause people to go deaf a few hours later, and you have to intentionally go out of your way to procure and train up in a special alchemy skill so you can get a specific salve for your ears to cure the deafness.

And the game never explains this.

Now that's ridiculous, right? Bows don't make people deaf, and there was no way you could have reasonably intuited that it was somehow a bow that was creating problems for your hearing.

And you definitely shouldn't have to go digging around on forums just to find this information. Sure, if you'd wasted hours of in-game experimentation, starting over and over again trying to figure out what causes the issue, you could have figured it out, but a bow is a bow. It should behave in intuitive ways or anything unintuitive about it should be clearly signposted in very obvious ways, and solutions for it should not require arcane roundabout solutions.

----

I kept developing inexplicable heat. This time around, it caused my farms in ONI to stop functioning. This time around, I found myself at a point where I needed higher quality food, I'd see that there were tools that were becoming available to me that would enable me to have higher quality food, I'd use those tools, and the farms would stop growing.

Turns out, a glorified Britta filter was breaking the known laws of physics and generating heat from nowhere.

It's water, forced through sand. The heat just magically appears, and quite a lot of it, too.

Heat should not be coming from nowhere. Alien biology that cools down the area around it? Sure, that's plausible in the sci-fi nature of the game, and very clearly signposted by the animated wind and its presence in an ice biome. Plus, y'know, the description of the item says what it does.

But a sieve isn't alien tech. I have this same tech sitting in my fridge at home right now. Water, forced through a filter, does not generate noticeable levels of heat.

Nor does it delete it, as I later learned the sieve does as well.

Combine that with the fact that the 'second' food source available (bristles are available at the same time as meal worms, but have slightly higher but seemingly easily met growing requirements) is apparently a food source I'm expected to 'skip' due to the heat from the lighting requirements and the water generally being too hot as well, and I'm instead supposed to dive head-long into glowing-green bacteria swarms to gather up mushrooms that imply you need rooms filled with CO2 (which I can't accomplish early game, and yes, someone else has explained that it just needs to be a 'layer' of CO2) in order to grow, and the bristle seems like it should be the next thing I'm growing after meal worms. Not mushrooms.

Instead, I'm watching as my entire colony slowly overheats for the third or fourth time because of mysterious sources of heat that are completely inexplicable without internet research.

----

Yes, I'm aware that in the current 'meta' sieves are generally used to delete heat. But early game, you don't have heat to delete, but you still have a sieve available at low-tech levels, implying you should be using it.

Yes, I'm aware that I could potentially dig through slime, find an ice biome, and make non-radiant pipes out of granite in a large web in order to somehow cool off water that shouldn't be hot in the first place, I even tried that, though I did it with obsidian since it had the 'Thermally Reactive' label. Apparently that was a 'wrong choice' too. "Optimal" choices shouldn't be the only viable choice.

Yes, I'm aware that wheezeworts are a thing. I stuck one in my farm. Even tried heatshift plating or whatever it's called. Didn't help, even after something like forty cycles.

And yes, I'm aware this is a long-standing argument. I don't care. It needs to be addressed and readdressed until it's fixed. The game shouldn't be designed around counter-intuitive mechanics that aren't blatantly obvious about deviating from the expected norm. Alien device that deletes heat by using hydrogen (which I've never progressed far enough to actually see)? Sure, I'll believe whatever the game tells me, but it needs to tell me. Glorified Britta filter that uses sand instead of activated charcoal? The thing better work close to like it does in the real world, and it sure shouldn't be generating enough heat to wonder if we can run a sterling engine off of it.

The game also shouldn't be balanced around a single expected solution (meal worms, then mushrooms, then berries) when the order of availability for those solutions is in a different order (meal worms, berries, mushrooms). Honestly, there should be multiple solutions with multiple ways of dealing with those complex efforts. Some might be more optimal than others, but it shouldn't be balanced so that it's 'optimal or die'.

I write this because someone (after showing me that more than half the devices in this game behave in absurd ways when it comes to temperature) mentioned that the next series of patches might be focused on early game balance. And I hope someone is listening. When I reach a point where I'm literally sitting here with a dozen tools to address issues, but none of the issues I have can be addressed with the tools the game has provided me, the game needs work.

I think there's potential for a fun experience in here. Right now though, it's just frustrating and discouraging.

----

Final notes to try and head off people arguing about what I should or should not have done:

Yes, I'm aware it's Early Access. That's why I'm posting in the feedback forum.

My latest base was running out of metal, entirely out of algae, and out of coal.

I didn't have refined metal, or even a clue how far down I'd have to dig to find oil to get plastic, much less the power to run any type of refinery. I could crush ore, but when I'm already low on it, an 'inefficient' refining process just sounds like a stupid choice that risks definitively dooming the colony.

I actually had six Hatches wrangled to try and keep a supply of coal going. Despite my attempts at blocking egg consumption, I failed to notice that the dupes still kept gathering up killing the eggs of the critters that produce coal. Apparently I'm also supposed to tell them to not put eggs into the fridge, despite there being a device specifically made to crack eggs open that I never built, and assumed was a required step to turn eggs in to food. Since, y'know, that's what the description a raw egg says: an egg cracker was used. Dupes were somehow cracking eggs themselves.

(No shine bug survived long enough for me to ever even come close to the necessary tools to keep them alive, either, btw. I think the second generation was the last. Possibly because of egg-cracker-less egg-cracking.)

The algae refinery I built by breaching a chlorine pocket (to keep slimelung in check) wasn't outputting enough algae to keep me going. I could have tried to build more, but the chlorine was already dissipating quite a lot, and I couldn't keep my atmospheric pressures high enough to keep the chlorine low enough to clean the produced algae. Worse, it *also* produced polluted water, which I was still struggling to deal with in a way that didn't bake my colony.

Ditto natural gas power generation: Polluted water and CO2, which produces more polluted water.

No water geysers were visible or available for generating H2 and O2. There was one spot I think a buried geyser was at, but to get to it I'd have to flood my colony with chlorine and hydrogen, which I hadn't the resources to handle yet.

My farm hadn't functioned in hours of gameplay due to the excess heat, and my one desperate experiment in trying to see if I could somehow cool the magically heated water in an ice biome without radiant piping (because without coolant, I can't build radiant piping, and don't even start about how the sieve magically deletes heat) was an abysmal failure. Apparently, the thermally reactive material (obsidian) wasn't actually the material I "should" use. (More of that 'optimal or die' balance.) I never bothered trying the 'correct' (non-thermally reactive) material before coming here to write this essay, but it might not have worked anyway as I think the sieve and obsidian piping was pumping more heat into the biome than the biome could handle even without the correct thermally conductive material.

Sure, I was slowly gathering what algae I could mine from the swamp, and coal from caustic areas, but there's only so far you can go in some of those areas before you start screwing with the atmosphere of your base or before the dupes run out of oxygen. I was half-way through building a ventilation system, but couldn't finish it due to a lack of resources.

Between all those resource issues and the frequently bugged pathfinding that cause dupes to just stand there and try to contemplate how to be everywhere simultaneously, I was already frustrated and wondering what I was doing wrong. To then learn that what little heating/cooling tools I had at my disposal were basically pointless because most of the machines violate not just the laws of physics but the very concept of verisimilitude? And the 'thing I was doing wrong' was not knowing hidden information that was counter-intuitive and never explained in-game? I figured it might be time for me to stop playing for a fourth time and wait to see if another six months or a year of patches will make the early game fun.

I might go back in later when I'm not so infuriated by a game that gives me so much info, down even to the melting point and thermal capacity of sandstone, but fails to mention the vitally important fact that a Britta filter magically violates conservation of energy. But I have so many other games that I need to play that feel more respectful of my time.

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9 hours ago, Moleculor said:

I bought Oxygen Not Included back in November of 2017. And I'm a bit angry I did.

I've attempted to play it three or four times. I have four separate colony saves, and each one has essentially discouraged me from playing right around the same spot: A little after I've consumed all the available space in the starting biome. But space has nothing to do with my problem.

My saves are on Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Feb 2018, and Oct 2018.

In each save's case I've breached caustic, swamp, or both biomes. In three of the four, I've also breached ice biomes. My very first save was one where I just abandoned and started over, since I really didn't know what I was doing. I still honestly don't, and that's a bit of the problem.

Let me be clear: I love Dwarf Fortress. I'm not a stranger to complex games.

I loved Factorio, and complex Minecraft modpacks, so I'm no stranger to interdependent systems that affect each other.

But I keep bouncing off of ONI.

----

Pretend you're playing an RPG and you need a very specific type of weapon (lets say a bow) in order to defeat a boss (there are no other alternatives, you need a bow).

So you go and get a bow. You beat the boss. And then an hour later, suddenly, you go deaf.

To be clear, neither the bow nor the boss have anything about them to indicate that they're cursed in any way. The bow is just a stick and string. The boss is dead, and you haven't seen any sign of him since you killed him. The plot has moved on, boss forgotten. But for some reason, your character has gone deaf. Not only that, it's a clearly indicated debuff on your character's stats, but no explanation for what it's from, or how to fix it, so it's not a problem with your cord coming loose or anything.

But the RPG is in 'Early Access', and maybe you've hit a bug, so you set the game aside and come back and start over after several patches have redesigned the game.

And you get the same problem. An extended period of time (hours) after killing that boss with a bow (any bow), you go deaf in game.

----

Before I go on, I already know that what I'm about to say has been said before. I already know it's been argued on the forums, and likely in chat rooms, etc. But it's worth saying again, because it's important.

----

An hour or two of research later, and you discover that in this game, bow string vibrations (not magic, just the sound of the vibration) cause people to go deaf a few hours later, and you have to intentionally go out of your way to procure and train up in a special alchemy skill so you can get a specific salve for your ears to cure the deafness.

And the game never explains this.

Now that's ridiculous, right? Bows don't make people deaf, and there was no way you could have reasonably intuited that it was somehow a bow that was creating problems for your hearing.

And you definitely shouldn't have to go digging around on forums just to find this information. Sure, if you'd wasted hours of in-game experimentation, starting over and over again trying to figure out what causes the issue, you could have figured it out, but a bow is a bow. It should behave in intuitive ways or anything unintuitive about it should be clearly signposted in very obvious ways, and solutions for it should not require arcane roundabout solutions.

----

I kept developing inexplicable heat. This time around, it caused my farms in ONI to stop functioning. This time around, I found myself at a point where I needed higher quality food, I'd see that there were tools that were becoming available to me that would enable me to have higher quality food, I'd use those tools, and the farms would stop growing.

Turns out, a glorified Britta filter was breaking the known laws of physics and generating heat from nowhere.

It's water, forced through sand. The heat just magically appears, and quite a lot of it, too.

Heat should not be coming from nowhere. Alien biology that cools down the area around it? Sure, that's plausible in the sci-fi nature of the game, and very clearly signposted by the animated wind and its presence in an ice biome. Plus, y'know, the description of the item says what it does.

But a sieve isn't alien tech. I have this same tech sitting in my fridge at home right now. Water, forced through a filter, does not generate noticeable levels of heat.

Nor does it delete it, as I later learned the sieve does as well.

Combine that with the fact that the 'second' food source available (bristles are available at the same time as meal worms, but have slightly higher but seemingly easily met growing requirements) is apparently a food source I'm expected to 'skip' due to the heat from the lighting requirements and the water generally being too hot as well, and I'm instead supposed to dive head-long into glowing-green bacteria swarms to gather up mushrooms that imply you need rooms filled with CO2 (which I can't accomplish early game, and yes, someone else has explained that it just needs to be a 'layer' of CO2) in order to grow, and the bristle seems like it should be the next thing I'm growing after meal worms. Not mushrooms.

Instead, I'm watching as my entire colony slowly overheats for the third or fourth time because of mysterious sources of heat that are completely inexplicable without internet research.

----

Yes, I'm aware that in the current 'meta' sieves are generally used to delete heat. But early game, you don't have heat to delete, but you still have a sieve available at low-tech levels, implying you should be using it.

Yes, I'm aware that I could potentially dig through slime, find an ice biome, and make non-radiant pipes out of granite in a large web in order to somehow cool off water that shouldn't be hot in the first place, I even tried that, though I did it with obsidian since it had the 'Thermally Reactive' label. Apparently that was a 'wrong choice' too. "Optimal" choices shouldn't be the only viable choice.

Yes, I'm aware that wheezeworts are a thing. I stuck one in my farm. Even tried heatshift plating or whatever it's called. Didn't help, even after something like forty cycles.

And yes, I'm aware this is a long-standing argument. I don't care. It needs to be addressed and readdressed until it's fixed. The game shouldn't be designed around counter-intuitive mechanics that aren't blatantly obvious about deviating from the expected norm. Alien device that deletes heat by using hydrogen (which I've never progressed far enough to actually see)? Sure, I'll believe whatever the game tells me, but it needs to tell me. Glorified Britta filter that uses sand instead of activated charcoal? The thing better work close to like it does in the real world, and it sure shouldn't be generating enough heat to wonder if we can run a sterling engine off of it.

The game also shouldn't be balanced around a single expected solution (meal worms, then mushrooms, then berries) when the order of availability for those solutions is in a different order (meal worms, berries, mushrooms). Honestly, there should be multiple solutions with multiple ways of dealing with those complex efforts. Some might be more optimal than others, but it shouldn't be balanced so that it's 'optimal or die'.

I write this because someone (after showing me that more than half the devices in this game behave in absurd ways when it comes to temperature) mentioned that the next series of patches might be focused on early game balance. And I hope someone is listening. When I reach a point where I'm literally sitting here with a dozen tools to address issues, but none of the issues I have can be addressed with the tools the game has provided me, the game needs work.

I think there's potential for a fun experience in here. Right now though, it's just frustrating and discouraging.

----

Final notes to try and head off people arguing about what I should or should not have done:

Yes, I'm aware it's Early Access. That's why I'm posting in the feedback forum.

My latest base was running out of metal, entirely out of algae, and out of coal.

I didn't have refined metal, or even a clue how far down I'd have to dig to find oil to get plastic, much less the power to run any type of refinery. I could crush ore, but when I'm already low on it, an 'inefficient' refining process just sounds like a stupid choice that risks definitively dooming the colony.

I actually had six Hatches wrangled to try and keep a supply of coal going. Despite my attempts at blocking egg consumption, I failed to notice that the dupes still kept gathering up killing the eggs of the critters that produce coal. Apparently I'm also supposed to tell them to not put eggs into the fridge, despite there being a device specifically made to crack eggs open that I never built, and assumed was a required step to turn eggs in to food. Since, y'know, that's what the description a raw egg says: an egg cracker was used. Dupes were somehow cracking eggs themselves.

(No shine bug survived long enough for me to ever even come close to the necessary tools to keep them alive, either, btw. I think the second generation was the last. Possibly because of egg-cracker-less egg-cracking.)

The algae refinery I built by breaching a chlorine pocket (to keep slimelung in check) wasn't outputting enough algae to keep me going. I could have tried to build more, but the chlorine was already dissipating quite a lot, and I couldn't keep my atmospheric pressures high enough to keep the chlorine low enough to clean the produced algae. Worse, it *also* produced polluted water, which I was still struggling to deal with in a way that didn't bake my colony.

Ditto natural gas power generation: Polluted water and CO2, which produces more polluted water.

No water geysers were visible or available for generating H2 and O2. There was one spot I think a buried geyser was at, but to get to it I'd have to flood my colony with chlorine and hydrogen, which I hadn't the resources to handle yet.

My farm hadn't functioned in hours of gameplay due to the excess heat, and my one desperate experiment in trying to see if I could somehow cool the magically heated water in an ice biome without radiant piping (because without coolant, I can't build radiant piping, and don't even start about how the sieve magically deletes heat) was an abysmal failure. Apparently, the thermally reactive material (obsidian) wasn't actually the material I "should" use. (More of that 'optimal or die' balance.) I never bothered trying the 'correct' (non-thermally reactive) material before coming here to write this essay, but it might not have worked anyway as I think the sieve and obsidian piping was pumping more heat into the biome than the biome could handle even without the correct thermally conductive material.

Sure, I was slowly gathering what algae I could mine from the swamp, and coal from caustic areas, but there's only so far you can go in some of those areas before you start screwing with the atmosphere of your base or before the dupes run out of oxygen. I was half-way through building a ventilation system, but couldn't finish it due to a lack of resources.

Between all those resource issues and the frequently bugged pathfinding that cause dupes to just stand there and try to contemplate how to be everywhere simultaneously, I was already frustrated and wondering what I was doing wrong. To then learn that what little heating/cooling tools I had at my disposal were basically pointless because most of the machines violate not just the laws of physics but the very concept of verisimilitude? And the 'thing I was doing wrong' was not knowing hidden information that was counter-intuitive and never explained in-game? I figured it might be time for me to stop playing for a fourth time and wait to see if another six months or a year of patches will make the early game fun.

I might go back in later when I'm not so infuriated by a game that gives me so much info, down even to the melting point and thermal capacity of sandstone, but fails to mention the vitally important fact that a Britta filter magically violates conservation of energy. But I have so many other games that I need to play that feel more respectful of my time.

When you used the time needed to write that wall of text, to get some experience in ONI, you would be halfway on the way to get an ONI pro.
Sorry but that "bow - boss - deaf" thing is very lol for me.

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It's a survival game, not a RPG. :D

It's quite normal not to explain how survive, because it's what make a survival game. You have to discover AND understand how to solve each problem.

 

I don't remember how much game I made in the first time. But with each new game, I understand something new, and improve the next game experience. And I still improve systems in my current game.

 

You're talking of heat that stop your plants from growing. But, you also told you manage to break to an ice biome. Don't you get, there, the solution about your heat problem ?

You've said you were short on energy. But maybe you don't have get all the point about the many types of generators, and the resources at your disposal. Finding coal, for example, is quite easy, and the coal generator can provide plenty of energy to the base while you're making a better one. ;)

 

I think the real problem is that you may try to build everything at the same time, or too early. Or maybe you're making too much duplicants in the early time of the game.

 

Do not discourage.

If you look well, this game is not so complicated. It just have many things to discover. ;)

 

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Stopped reading after the bow story.

It boils down to this:

In almost every computer game there is some kind of health bar. The players task is to observe the health bar and see if it loses points. If the health bar goes to 0, the character dies.

When that character dies, there is usually not a huge list of all the damage he took throughout his lifetime. It is the players tasks to track and estimate the impact of all these damages when/before they have happened.

Not all damages are instant, some are over-time, others might heal back automatically, even others might permanently decrease the players stats.This system is very established and most players are able to deal with it even without a big tutorial.

 

Now, there are even other games, where there is not one bar, but many. Subnautica has an oxygen-bar. Deus-Ex has an energy-bar. M&M has a mana-bar. All of them follow the same design: drop to 0 = bad. Again most players are able to almost instantly grasp these mechanics, because they seem to be very ... familiar.

Back to ONI: Here we also have multiple bars. Let me sum it up for you:

  • health: 0 = bad
  • oxygen: 0 = bad
  • calories: 0 = bad
  • energy: 0 = bad
  • immunity: 0 = bad
  • stress: 100 = bad
  • bladder: 100 = bad (at least when there is no toilet around)
  • morale: 0 = bad (actually < X = bad)
  • stamina 0 = bad
  • thermal energy: 0 .... ah, this is a bit tricky

You get the idea. As you can see most of them are very simple and only the health bar is the mission-critical one, that leads you to the final consequence of not observing your bars.

Spoiler

The Duplicant will die when health drops to 0.

 

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Some sources stands that ONI is roguelike type of game, it is not completely true - too easy as for roguelike, but there is some similarity. In such games you(or your colony) will die soon or later, basically you restarting game over and over, learning how to survive longer, its like evolution - you getting experience each time and each next session doing better and better, but still will die eventually. In ONI you will have roguelike experience at the beginning, when you dont know game mechanics and stuff, so your first colonies most likely will extinct fast, but as you replaying, you learning and after some point you no longer play roguelike - game become too easy to survive, not much survival left.

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So i see where is the issue. It`s not the game (well kinda is but it`s not the main issue). It`s how you come about playing it. The game is complicated and requires you to play it through multiple tiumes before you realise what are you supposed to do. When you think you know how you should play a new problem arises and you need to rework your entire apporach and probably it`s best to start over. I enjoy that, you apparently don`t. The game takes a lot of time. Often i find myself thinking all over the day how to fix a problem instead of even playing it. It`s not for everyone.

That said i also find the heat management tedious. It takes so much room to set up cooling and it tends to be so unreliable. I hate doing that but it`s an element of the game. The sieve mechanics are pretty unintuitional. First i assumed the machine just produced heat, like almost all others do. Then it turned out it`s just distilling water and outputting it at a fixed 40oC. But i just check stuff like this so i don`t get surprised by it. At least the first time i build a machine and watch it work.

The main point of the game (for me at least) is to keep starting over and trying to manage all the problems i could encounter better this time. Build stuff more optimal, find new possible issues and answers to them. This is what i enjoy. I can`t give you any advice to how you should enjoy the game. Find what you like about it and take it slow. one tech tier at a time. Don`t rush stuff and be ready for problems. The game will get better over the next year. It`s polishing time. Maybe some of the infuriating stuff gets fixed.

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18 hours ago, Moleculor said:

 

 

As @Oozinatorsaid, you need more experience with some things

But. You are correct about the constant output of heat from water sieves and things. But... that's what the new updates are fixing. Everything else though, you just need to learn. A good tip: Understand when its gotten out of hand and start anew with the newfound knowledge from your last run. 

 

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@Oozinator I for one also find that the amount of tension in the game at that point is super high. There are multiple problems that you have to face at once in that point of the game. Yes part of it is learning from the design mistakes and fixing it on the next fort, but it does feel insurmountable for a couple of playthroughs. I don't know how I would address this problem though >.<

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2 hours ago, Gwido said:

It's normal that the sieve produce heat. It's an electric device, and all electric devices produce heat. It's just more important in the game than in reallity. ;)

well, technically all its doing is running water through some sand, so maybe increase the temp 1-2 degrees not the way it is now.

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1 minute ago, mr peeps said:

well, technically all its doing is running water through some sand, so maybe increase the temp 1-2 degrees not the way it is now.

Yeah, but it inject it under pressure, it not just lets the water go through the filtration medium naturally, which would take some more time to filter. :D 

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Just now, Gwido said:

Yeah, but it inject it under pressure, it not just lets the water go through the filtration medium naturally, which would take some more time to filter. :D 

sure, but the main point is that, under usual circumstances, it would raise the temperature by completely irrational numbers

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Just now, mr peeps said:

sure, but the main point is that, under usual circumstances, it would raise the temperature by completely irrational numbers

It's a game. There must be arrangement with reality for balance purpose :p

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Mhhh. What I can agree on is that some players like me had played thousands of cycles without debug and I could not face starting a new map again from zero, after investing hundreds of hours on past maps. So my route was to use the debug mode, to skip a thousand cycles game time on new maps. I just did not want to build things over and over again.

Especially for new players I would find it great if there is a trader, trade stand, trading caravan or whatever - So that players stuck with something in the game can exchange/trade resources. I have always missed that myself, if this would be available in the early game...Hell, I would love to start a fresh map without debug mode.

My 50 cents...

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OP you have some good points! Like how the "thermally reactive" label doesn't help us or make a lot of sense. You wrote wayyyyyy too much though and it's not really helping your cause.

 

If you want to get into the semantics then yea, the brita filters do cause problems and managing water temperatures is super important, especially early game. On the bright side you know this now, and you'll do A LOT better with this knowledge. Another good tip is to keep all your plants by the 23 degree celcius water bodies at the start.

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I may want to add that the games concept of "Keep everything at low or the right temperature", is a fairly rare game concept ( less than 5% of all games ). There is the recent Frostbite game, the last (s***) Anno had temperature gameplay too, ThisWarofMine, Banished and some more or less other games. I think with ONI its not so abvious for new players that the game is about handling temperature, until one has played it a certain amount of time.

If you buy a game with the name "Frostbite" > It can not be more obvious. ONI says its about Oxygen in the game title, it should let new players know in the first 10 minutes playing that its also about temperature. A bit of hand holding via introduction tutorial would be good.

Having read the first post here, one of the mentioned issues seems to be about temperature handling.

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The heat balance is all over the place right now. The fixed temperature output of Electrolyzers and Water Sieves are completely un-physical, and you get no warning about them. The two main buildings to help with heat dissipation (aquatuner, thermoregulator) come in the third layer of research, which is too late for how early you need them, require fairly advanced understanding of the game to use, and also take *forever* to setup. And the non-exploity ways to deal with heat involve finding one or more cold biomes, space, or the steam turbine.

Just because you can learn how to handle the heat problem by reading through the forums doesn't mean it's balanced properly yet, and it's definitely not intuitive. At the very least, fixed-temperature-output machines need to be patched out, heat sinks have to be more readily available (why is there only one type of cold biome, but three hot ones? Why do you always start surrounded by hot biomes?), and more non-magical ways to deal with heat have to be possible (e.g., space radiator). Ideally, the biomes surrounding the starting position should be mostly *cold*, since dealing with cold is so much easier than with heat in this game. A larger starter biome would also help.

And, for the sake of making the game less harsh on newbies, I also think it should be made more clear in the tooltips that Algae Deoxydizer eat through your algae reserves rather quickly, and you should be looking for other solutions soon-ish. And that the game is "easier" (if slower) with less dupes.

 

I don't mean to say I don't like the game, but "git gud" is not an answer to the valid complaints of the OP.

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6 minutes ago, pacovf said:

The two main buildings to help with heat dissipation (aquatuner, thermoregulator) come in the third layer of research, which is too late for how early you need them, require fairly advanced understanding of the game to use, and also take *forever* to setup.

I kinda agree with that and kinda don`t. Those buildings are the most intuitional heat management buildings but you got options available earlier.

The wheezewort is available as soon as you break into an ice biome with one and requires no setup at all. Early on it`s all yoi need to keep your farms working. The AETN is also pretty easy to use, just can`t be moved. My last game i managed to keep my base cool for over 200 cycles just using a small ice biome to pump hot water through it with radiant pipes. I build my first aquatuner after cycle 300.

I think a part of the problem is the starting biome being too small atm. It doesn`t give enough time for newbies to identify the heat problems as well as the limited algae problems.

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I only found out about fixed machinery output temperatures by reading lots in the forum here. I do understand why the developers do it...Having fixed values in the game, to ensure that they have a set of fixed values they know of, on which they base their game design. If players like that or not, is another story.

I always had the view that no resource should be finite. IMHO every resource or critter should be minable, tradeable, findable, able to be robbed, gifted or else how made available to the player, in one way or another.

If players are stuck in an dead end, why not give them the opportunity to trade their way out of this problem? Just give the player a trading portal and a terrible resource conversion rate. IMHO this would especially help new players and mass scale production players like me :)

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5 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I kinda agree with that and kinda don`t. Those buildings are the most intuitional heat management buildings but you got options available earlier.

The wheezewort is available as soon as you break into an ice biome with one and requires no setup at all. Early on it`s all yoi need to keep your farms working. The AETN is also pretty easy to use, just can`t be moved. My last game i managed to keep my base cool for over 200 cycles just using a small ice biome to pump hot water through it with radiant pipes. I build my first aquatuner after cycle 300.

I think a part of the problem is the starting biome being too small atm. It doesn`t give enough time for newbies to identify the heat problems as well as the limited algae problems.

I agree, but all those solutions require finding a cold biome. A player that isn’t aggressively looking for one won’t have found one by the time heat becomes a problem; in fact, they have no way of knowing that's what they are supposed to do! More types of cold biomes would help, or a biome with a lot of high-capacity liquid (good heat sink). Or heck, even just making the Caustic biome a cold one would make the early-mid game a lot easier with respect to heat, which is a good thing IMHO.

 

5 hours ago, babba said:

I only found out about fixed machinery output temperatures by reading lots in the forum here. I do understand why the developers do it...Having fixed values in the game, to ensure that they have a set of fixed values they know of, on which they base their game design. If players like that or not, is another story.

I always had the view that no resource should be finite. IMHO every resource or critter should be minable, tradeable, findable, able to be robbed, gifted or else how made available to the player, in one way or another.

If players are stuck in an dead end, why not give them the opportunity to trade their way out of this problem? Just give the player a trading portal and a terrible resource conversion rate. IMHO this would especially help new players and mass scale production players like me :)

I would prefer removing all fixed-temperature-output machines, because they aren’t physical. If the game really needs one, then it should be labelled as such (e.g. “magic temperature equaliser” or whatnot). It should not be a hidden feature of a building that is ostensibly used for something else.

As for trading... eh. I guess in an “easy mode”, sure, why not, or as a very lategame kind of thing, but then we already have rockets. The thing is, I would say one of the main draws of the game is trying to make a self-sustained closed system. Trading would invalidate that.

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