MULTIPLAYER SOON !!!

[Maxposting]

4 hours ago, Kazumiya said:

Because Rocket should be made to search for "Relics" of the ancient world unobtainable anywhere else to solve some kind of mystery (the final mystery) x)

Stardew Valley is a simulation game too, though they added multiplayer so... Yes yes it's not really the same but still , when you want it => you can do it xD

Stardew Valley is a farming simulation game.

Not a Space survival simulation.

Like there is the oxygen thing that can end your game but nah SV and ONI are simulations therefore they are 100% same

[watermelen671]

39 minutes ago, camelot said:

Everything could be done, but the question is it worth it?

It could be done, but the question is SHOULD it be done.

What do the players hope to gain from adding this? If there's little to gain, then why add it?

[cpy]

ONI has a multiplayer potential of watching twitch streamer play ONI. Nothing more.

In SDV you have DIRECT control of your farmer. In ONI you have indirect control of many dupes.

[Lord Murden]

I think ONI multiplayer would be extremely easy to implement and that would be a great addition to the game.

All is needed is a separate duplicant printer for each player. Everything else would work exactly the same.

I for one would love to play in the same asteroid with my wife.

[Hellshound38]

split screen single computer multiplayer would probably work!

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Lord Murden said:

I think ONI multiplayer would be extremely easy to implement and that would be a great addition to the game.

All is needed is a separate duplicant printer for each player. Everything else would work exactly the same.

I for one would love to play in the same asteroid with my wife.

But who controls which dupes? What about copies? How will you be able to differentiate between the two?

If you control both then what's the purpose of having two printer pods? That means double the amount of duplicants in the same amount of time. Unlocking speed will basically have to be halved in order to compensate for the increased dupe power, and resource requirements will have to be doubled. How will the duplicants know which base to inhabit? What about priorities? Their AI prioritizes doing whatever task is the closest with the highest priority for their skill set, meaning dupes will (for lack of a better word) cross-pollinate; and your wife's dupes will be doing your tasks, and hers doing yours.

There is no direct control over the duplicants. And I ask of you people to give me a good example of a co-op multiplayer game where you have absolutely little to no control over the AI. The best I can come up with is an RTS game, which would result in ONI completely changing genre.

The only way ONI could be multiplayer is if Klei made a multiplayer ONI, and sell it as a completely new game. Because not only would ONI-line (you're welcome Klei) change from a simulation game to an RTS game, it would require the game to be completely remade from the ground up to accommodate that genre shift.

1 minute ago, Hellshound38 said:

split screen single computer multiplayer would probably work!

Or...you could just share your seed and have two processes of the game running at the same time.

You think I'm joking but that's honestly how absurd that sounds. ONI is an extremely resource heavy game, and asking for local split screen multiplayer is essentially asking for two ONI processes running at the same time...with the same seed. 

I'm pretty sure most computers wouldn't be capable of running that.

[Kazumiya]

XD I just thought => how about the speed game control if you play with someone ? 

OKAY OKAY I though of the perfect game for an example => THE SIMS 4 xD you don't control sims , you give orders xP

[Zarquan]

On 10/1/2018 at 5:02 AM, Bomato said:

imagine the lag...

Why would lag matter in a game like this?  Are you going to miss a headshot because the enemy teleported?  Is the hatch going to do...something you could prevent with instant reaction time?  What in this game requires any quick reflexes that can't be done with pausing?  Also, I don't see any reason why this game would be especially laggy if handled correctly.  We can have remote desktop with usable levels of latency from over a hundred miles away, and that is the laziest way to execute my vision of multiplayer.

19 minutes ago, Kazumiya said:

XD I just thought => how about the speed game control if you play with someone ? 

OKAY OKAY I though of the perfect game for an example => THE SIMS 4 xD you don't control sims , you give orders xP

In the game Stellaris, you can either set up the game so that the speed is constant or allow either player to control the speed.  This is not a game where any adversarial multiplayer makes any sense, so the players would be cooperating.  If they can cooperate well, they can agree on how to manage time.  Or have server settings that choose a fixed speed.  Pausing is pretty essential though.

There used to be a game called The Sims Online, where people effectively played the sims together.  It worked pretty well and was fairly popular, but then EA decided to kill the servers to stop everyone's fun because that's what EA does.  I think it would be very odd if this game ever had servers unless they create a massive rework of the game (which I do not think is a good idea for this release).

[camelot]

4 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

It could be done, but the question is SHOULD it be done.

What do the players hope to gain from adding this? If there's little to gain, then why add it?

It greatly depends on the direction Klei want to take 

For your interest, I've developed a social game called Digcovery in 2011 and in many aspects, it's quite similar to ONI. Here are some ideas I think ONI can implement on the multiplayer version and I would be super excited if they're trying to do so

• Researching in ONI is quite easy and boring and have no challenges. What if higher tier machines such as Petroleum Generator, Steam Turbine, Solar Panel... require 4 ingredients/blueprints but you never have all 4 in your world, even if you dig all the titles and check all the relics. You're forced to trade/barter with people in other world via a communication device. And beware of hackers too, they can steal your precious blueprints for their own gain if you're not careful.
• Tools. Tools are boring too since they're un-upgradable. But since you have only 10/20 all available in-game materials in your world, you should focus on making one great specific tool and trade/give it to others via an unmanned probe or lets others 3D-print tools using various kind of printers.
• Specialization and division of labour. Some worlds are rich in minerals, other rich in biology. You can borrow some biologists to help you tame dreckos, build algae distiller. In return, you lend them miners who can dig abbsylite, doctors who can cure patients infected by a very rare disease or engineers who can build and train dupes to use exosuits.
• You can sell others a lot of excess energy generated by your galactical graded, top-notch-efficient power grid, beam via a powerful transmitter. You can sell your dupes, or your water too.
• Sometimes 10 world's space scanners have detected a comet contains a large amount of a very rare material and it'll land at planet X in y days. Gather the best team you could to go there and extract as much as you can before others do. The prize will be distributed based on team performance. Expect some injuries, deaths or infected dupes that you can cure/revive later, just like Fallout Shelter
• Or you could collaborate on some very big and costly projects that could invent a new way to travel in space which greatly reduces time and fuel to travel to other solar systems. Any contributors have equal right to access that tech assured by a smart contract.
• If everything in this game is upgradable then the speed bar won't matter that much

Just some of my thoughts. In my limited product management experiences, some features above are not that hard to develop

[Yushatak]

It would be cool to have a thing where you can compare statistics with other players' worlds and maybe view the world of your friends over the Steam streaming thing in an integrated UI. That way you play single player but you can compare how well you play and compete with friends without it being "multiplayer".

Edit: Could also add an option like Dark Souls has (so that those who think this is an awful idea don't have to deal with it, or for newer players) to enable players landing on your asteroid and add combat and sabotage mechanics to the game for a way to steal resources and kill their duplicants. This could be a black-box event like when a Sim in older Sims games goes to its job, where the simulation occurs on either the remote machine or a server (to avoid cheating) and the result is sent to you, while the player you invade deals with AI-controlled duplicants. You could call them back at any time and view stats on how things are going with a delay (explainable by communications, allows avoiding synchronizing often and lagging). Cooperative multiplayer integration could be done via trading and a similar black-box event, somewhat like when you trade in Diablo 2.

I definitely think that live fully-synchronized ONI is an awful idea since I'm a developer and I understand what that implies (and look at what that did to them on Don't Starve with dual games), but that doesn't mean there can't be any online interaction/features.

[TheOlz]

On 01/10/2018 at 9:11 PM, _Q_ said:

Don't Starve was also only single player game and look where are we now.

If the way to multiplayer is to fragment the game like DS/DST, that is an even worse than horrible idea.

[camelot]

 

15 minutes ago, TheOlz said:

If the way to multiplayer is to fragment the game like DS/DST, that is an even worse than horrible idea.

Could you explain how increasing user base/revenue is a horrible idea?

[Glassyfo]

4 minutes ago, camelot said:

 

Could you explain how increasing user base/revenue is a horrible idea?

The increase has to outweigh the extra cost of development to even be a remotely good idea. I'm not convinced that the number of people who would buy a multiplayer oni game is that high to be honest.

[camelot]

7 minutes ago, bleeter6 said:

The increase has to outweigh the extra cost of development to even be a remotely good idea.

You don't have the numbers for revenue/cost. Me neither. But Klei knows best. So you consider DST wasn't a good idea based on what?

[camelot]

For your added comment:

For me, theoretically, ONI multiplayer could lean more toward social and/or idle gaming. There are tons of good game in that category: Clash of Clans, FarmVille, Idle Mining Tycoon... (You get the idea)

In these kinds of games, you're totally in control of your own world, your playing speed and your progress don't matter to other people. Similar to @Yushatak idea, interactions could be based mostly on simple, not real-time, trade-base actions. For example, I'm trading 1 ton of gold for 1 ton of iron with you. After you activate an irreversible action, you even could restart your game. Your package will be sent to me as planned, but you will not receive my package. In this case, 1 ton of iron will be created from thin air and send to me. You could only restart/load the game for like twice a week to avoid something like resource inflation. 

The trading system could be very simple or could be very sophisticated similar to every centralized exchanges in well-known markets such as Forex and Crypto. Like you could cultivate wheezewort and go for wheezewort/Steel trading pair. Any resource will have a credit trading pair, so you also can trade wheezewort for ONI Universal Credit and vice versa. The total amount of credits might be fixed, again, for controlling inflation. We have many working models in crypto space to learn from. 

That type of game mechanism might be suitable for a monetization model which people paid for resources to speed up their game progress. I personally not fond of this model or game like Farmville but it's a good, popular and proven model. ONI could use that model to some extends to balance between user experience and revenue. 

What ONI multiplayer might look like in the future? It could be a simulation game, which you can totally in control of your progress and speed it up by paying money or interacting with other people/game events. Besides that, you could also try RPG experience just like DS Adventure mode or DST on some worlds/missions/events. It's an ambitious and promising idea that some other games such as No Man's Sky and Star Citizen tried to tackle. (And they both raised/spent a massive amount of money, $180 million in Star Citizen case).

Of course, ít's a several-years-in-the-future kind of things. For now, let's open to all the possibilities and if they're going to implement multiplayer, wait for their pitching and decide to support them or not.

 

[Lazy-Anemic]

It's hard to open to possibilities that make no sense and only have a chance of even happening years later. It's like trying to get people hooked on the idea of fusion powered toaster ovens.

[Glassyfo]

7 hours ago, camelot said:

You don't have the numbers for revenue/cost. Me neither. But Klei knows best. So you consider DST wasn't a good idea based on what?

You realize that you're saying this while klei's not making multiplayer right? You're proving my point.

[Yushatak]

12 hours ago, camelot said:

You don't have the numbers for revenue/cost. Me neither. But Klei knows best. So you consider DST wasn't a good idea based on what?

I was actively following development of DS/DST all the way through from nearly day one, and I can say that they did DST because the fans demanded it. It was never planned, they assessed and realized they'd basically have to rewrite the game, they held polls and such and enough people wanted it that they decided to do that rather than stick to the original plan of focusing on the single player DS solely.

That doesn't mean it was a bad idea, but it was definitely a huge waste of development time vs. having written the game with that in mind from the start. It also means any new content had to be written and then ported over to the other codebase with changes if it's different enough (and that's probably quite common, though I can't guarantee that since I haven't seen their code). If they wanted to do MP on ONI they would have learned from that and done it from the start I'm sure. My suggestion of token non-real-time non-synchronized MP elements is much more realistic to ask for and less wasteful in development time.

Then again, maybe they designed the engine to allow for MP more easily and it wouldn't be as much of a thing this time. We can't know without their input.

By the way, Klei, I'd love to work for you and my favorite things to do are complex engine work and performance tuning, which a lot of people hate. xD I'd love to chase down glitches with the gas system/germs and whatnot in ONI.

[Yunru]

2 hours ago, Yushatak said:

We can't know without their input.

 

Which we have: "There are currently no plans to add multiplayer to Oxygen Not Included."

[Kazumiya]

28 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Which we have: "There are currently no plans to add multiplayer to Oxygen Not Included."

C U R R E N T L Y 

[Glassyfo]

We're taking about 'currently'. What the hell are you on about? People are asking how we know klei don't think it's a good idea, and the fact that they're not making such a thing is a pretty good clue.

[Lord Murden]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:49 PM, watermelen671 said:

But who controls which dupes? What about copies? How will you be able to differentiate between the two?

If you control both then what's the purpose of having two printer pods? That means double the amount of duplicants in the same amount of time. Unlocking speed will basically have to be halved in order to compensate for the increased dupe power, and resource requirements will have to be doubled. How will the duplicants know which base to inhabit? What about priorities? Their AI prioritizes doing whatever task is the closest with the highest priority for their skill set, meaning dupes will (for lack of a better word) cross-pollinate; and your wife's dupes will be doing your tasks, and hers doing yours.

There is no direct control over the duplicants. And I ask of you people to give me a good example of a co-op multiplayer game where you have absolutely little to no control over the AI. The best I can come up with is an RTS game, which would result in ONI completely changing genre.

The only way ONI could be multiplayer is if Klei made a multiplayer ONI, and sell it as a completely new game. Because not only would ONI-line (you're welcome Klei) change from a simulation game to an RTS game, it would require the game to be completely remade from the ground up to accommodate that genre shift.

Or...you could just share your seed and have two processes of the game running at the same time.

You think I'm joking but that's honestly how absurd that sounds. ONI is an extremely resource heavy game, and asking for local split screen multiplayer is essentially asking for two ONI processes running at the same time...with the same seed. 

I'm pretty sure most computers wouldn't be capable of running that.

You control the dupes you print. What do you mean with copies?

There are a few different options for differentiating between them. It could be through the color of their clothes or the perhaps a subtle aura around them. I could come up with other ideas, but I'm pretty sure there are a few clever and not too complicated ways of doing that.

The purpose of having two pods is so that each player chooses how many dupes belong to them.

Having more duplicants doesn't mean the game will be much easier. The biggest challenge is to keep them alive, not to have them printed, but I wouldn't mind if the pods took longer to make duplicants available for the sake of balance.

Why would resource requirement have to be doubled? I don't get that.

"What about priorities? Their AI prioritizes doing whatever task is the closest with the highest priority for their skill set, meaning dupes will (for lack of a better word) cross-pollinate; and your wife's dupes will be doing your tasks, and hers doing yours."

Yes, that is fine. I think that would be the point of playing together. In regard to how the AI prioritize dupes' work, it would work exactly the same as if they all belong to the same player. However, each player will be able to override the priorities of their dupes via the priorities tab.

"There is no direct control over the duplicants..."

I don't get your point when you say that.

"The only way ONI could be multiplayer is if..."

No, I don't agree with that. The game would play exactly the same. 

The rest of your arguments don't seem relevant to the discussion.

On 10/2/2018 at 1:48 PM, Hellshound38 said:

split screen single computer multiplayer would probably work!

I don't think so...

On 10/2/2018 at 2:52 PM, Kazumiya said:

XD I just thought => how about the speed game control if you play with someone ? 

OKAY OKAY I though of the perfect game for an example => THE SIMS 4 xD you don't control sims , you give orders xP

The speed is set to the player with the slowest speed setting. Eventually all players will be on the maximum setting.

3 hours ago, Yunru said:

Which we have: "There are currently no plans to add multiplayer to Oxygen Not Included."

This doesn't mean anything.

They can say there are currently no plans to do something and the next day they have an idea of how to do it and then come up with a plan.

[Glassyfo]

31 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

You control the dupes you print. What do you mean with copies?

There are a few different options for differentiating between them. It could be through the color of their clothes or the perhaps a subtle aura around them. I could come up with other ideas, but I'm pretty sure there are a few clever and not too complicated ways of doing that.

The purpose of having two pods is so that each player chooses how many dupes belong to them.

Having more duplicants doesn't mean the game will be much easier. The biggest challenge is to keep them alive, not to have them printed, but I wouldn't mind if the pods took longer to make duplicants available for the sake of balance.

Why would resource requirement have to be doubled? I don't get that.

"What about priorities? Their AI prioritizes doing whatever task is the closest with the highest priority for their skill set, meaning dupes will (for lack of a better word) cross-pollinate; and your wife's dupes will be doing your tasks, and hers doing yours."

Yes, that is fine. I think that would be the point of playing together. In regard to how the AI prioritize dupes' work, it would work exactly the same as if they all belong to the same player. However, each player will be able to override the priorities of their dupes via the priorities tab.

"There is no direct control over the duplicants..."

I don't get your point when you say that.

"The only way ONI could be multiplayer is if..."

No, I don't agree with that. The game would play exactly the same. 

The rest of your arguments don't seem relevant to the discussion.

I don't think so...

The speed is set to the player with the slowest speed setting. Eventually all players will be on the maximum setting.

This doesn't mean anything.

They can say there are currently no plans to do something and the next day they have an idea of how to do it and then come up with a plan.

Unlikely seeing as how the base game isn't even finished.

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, Lord Murden said:

[snip]

Spoiler

Y'know there's a quote button right?

Right there.

Okay! Let's go though this beat by beat!

BTW, I decided to put all of my responses into spoilers because good grief would this feel like a wall of text!

Spoiler

3 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

You control the dupes you print. What do you mean with copies?

You can have multiple Liams, Banhis, Bubbles, Nisbets, etc. You can have and endless amount of duplicate duplicants running throughout the colony.

Spoiler

4 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

There are a few different options for differentiating between them. It could be through the color of their clothes or the perhaps a subtle aura around them. I could come up with other ideas, but I'm pretty sure there are a few clever and not too complicated ways of doing that

So are you suggesting that the devs add more jumpsuit colors? Or that each player's duplicants have only one jumpsuit color each? What about clothing like the sweaters? Do they change the coloring of those too? And let's not forget the exosuits, what about those? 

A subtle aura would not be visible when zoomed out, like what most players have their cameras positioned in.

Spoiler

7 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

The purpose of having two pods is so that each player chooses how many dupes belong to them.

This is directly contradicted by:

8 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

Yes, that is fine. I think that would be the point of playing together. In regard to how the AI prioritize dupes' work, it would work exactly the same as if they all belong to the same player. However, each player will be able to override the priorities of their dupes via the priorities tab.

So...you're both able to control each others' duplicants? Then what's the point of having two separate printing pods and sets of duplicants?

Spoiler

9 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

Having more duplicants doesn't mean the game will be much easier. The biggest challenge is to keep them alive, not to have them printed, but I wouldn't mind if the pods took longer to make duplicants available for the sake of balance.

11 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

Why would resource requirement have to be doubled? I don't get that.

The more duplicants the player has, the easier it becomes to make and manage things. Especially considering you now have twice the amounts of starting duplicants (3 instead of 6), the starting area will be dug out much quicker, stuff will be built quicker, food will be prepared quicker, there are more duplicants available to generate power, etc. You'll also have two ration boxes, which means that food won't be a problem for the duplicants for the first few cycles, and oxygen production is easy with algae deoxydizers, especially when you have twice the amount of starting duplicants to manage and power it.

Spoiler

13 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

I don't get your point when you say that.

...it means you do not control any individual dupes' movements. Everything is done by their AI. You only influence their AI with the priority system. You cannot explicitly tell a dupe to do X, or to go do Y instead of X, they will do things based on their primary priorities, their proximity to tasks, and their secondary priorities.

Spoiler

16 minutes ago, Lord Murden said:

No, I don't agree with that. The game would play exactly the same. 

The rest of your arguments don't seem relevant to the discussion.

As several people have stated before, it is highly likely that if ONI were to get a multiplayer, it'd have to be rebuilt from the ground up like DST and sold as a stand-alone game. The reason why this is...y'know what? I have a video about this:

Spoiler

I know it's about accessibility, however I posted a timestamp for a reason.

It's tangentially related.

 

By the way, I actually managed to find something that might actually be able to work for local "multiplayer": Co-Pilot Mode.

Spoiler

 

 

17 hours ago, camelot said:

speed it up by paying money

 

What do you think this is? EA? Klei wouldn't do that to us.

[Lord Murden]

 

Hey there, although we have opposite opinions about this, you make valid points.

Quote

"You can have multiple Liams, Banhis, Bubbles, Nisbets, etc. You can have and endless amount of duplicate duplicants running throughout the colony."

Yes I see, but we can have multiple copies of duplicants today and I don't think this would be more of a problem in multiplayer.

Quote

"So are you suggesting that the devs add more jumpsuit colors? Or that each player's duplicants have only one jumpsuit color each? What about clothing like the sweaters? Do they change the coloring of those too? And let's not forget the exosuits, what about those? 
A subtle aura would not be visible when zoomed out, like what most players have their cameras positioned in."

Yes, each player's dupes would have their own color, including sweaters, vests, exosuits, etc. The problem with this approach is that we would no longer be able to use blue for cool vest and red for warm sweater.
Do we really need to know which of the dupes are yours? Essentially all you need to do is to place your orders and eventually your dupes will come and do it.

Quote

"So...you're both able to control each others' duplicants? Then what's the point of having two separate printing pods and sets of duplicants?"

You would not be able to directly control each other dupes. Whenever you place dig/build orders, only your dupes will follow it. 
When I said that in regard to how the AI prioritize work it would be exactly the same, I failed to mention that the other player's dupes would be unaware of the orders you placed.

There would be situations, however, where things would have to be coordinated. For example, dupes would share machines like the grill, where each player would set their own recipes and dupes would take turns using them.

Quote

"The more duplicants the player has, the easier it becomes to make and manage things. Especially considering you now have twice the amounts of starting duplicants (3 instead of 6), the starting area will be dug out much quicker, stuff will be built quicker, food will be prepared quicker, there are more duplicants available to generate power, etc. You'll also have two ration boxes, which means that food won't be a problem for the duplicants for the first few cycles, and oxygen production is easy with algae deoxydizers, especially when you have twice the amount of starting duplicants to manage and power it."

I see your point, but I don't really think that is the case.
I find myself having a better progress with a limited number of dupes at the beginning and expanding as the base's "infrastructure" gets developed, otherwise I end up with a bunch of dead dupes.
But I wouldn't be opposed to limiting the start to one dupe per player and increasing the time until new dupes are available at the pod. 

Quote

"As several people have stated before, it is highly likely that if ONI were to get a multiplayer, it'd have to be rebuilt from the ground up like DST and sold as a stand-alone game..."

I think all the people who stated that before are wrong. I don't think this would be a trivial exercise, but having seen the source code of ONI, I can tell it's far from having to rebuilt it from the ground up.
But I definitely don't think this should be a free addition.

Quote

"By the way, I actually managed to find something that might actually be able to work for local "multiplayer": Co-Pilot Mode."

Hahahaha this idea is cute.

 

Also, it's funny that six months ago, the idea of ONI multiplayer would make me cringe. 
Only when I started to play with my wife on separate computers that the possibility of playing together in the same asteroid started make sense to me.

 

PS: haha thanks for the tip on the "quote" thingy