Sour gas

[Saturnus]

2 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

Sulfur 0,4kg from -161,5°C -> 75°C equals about 94 kj/kg

Natural gas 0,6kg from idem equals about 311 kj/kg.

I thought it was 0.6g Sulphur and 0.4g NG from 1g sour gas. If not then yes, tripling would have been better.

The point I was trying to make that 1C change in NG should equal about 1C change in sour gas. That would prevent thermal runaway and stop any practical supercooler builds without potentially adding other problems.

[nvzboy]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

I thought it was 0.6g Sulphur and 0.4g NG from 1g sour gas. If not then yes, tripling would have been better.

The point I was trying to make that 1C change in NG should equal about 1C change in sour gas. That would prevent thermal runaway and stop any practical supercooler builds without potentially adding other problems.

I had come across conflicting statements about that number as well, i calculated it for those situations as well and the difference to the result ranges only in a couple percent. If you want that desired outcome you speak of the heat capacity of sour gas has to be around the heat capacity of the other substances involved, they all revolve around 1,6-1,8kj/kgK so the current change from 0,242 which is nowhere near that is completely correct. On that we agree.

[socooo]

2 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

Yeah they just raised the heat capacity this patch.

oahhhhh……I believe klei understood my implication that they did the right thing

[TLW]

3 hours ago, nvzboy said:

Assumption: crude oil is pumped in at 75°C, end products end up back at that temperature.

Not a good assumption.

You can dump heat into liquid sulfur up to 175C. This makes a non-trivial difference to cooling, especially with the sour gas heat capacity change.

[Carnis]

5 hours ago, nvzboy said:

All transitions are 1->1 except for the one from sour gas to natural gas and sulfur which is about 60/40 respectively I found around the forums. All that accounted for, what did I miss then?

Doing this maths makes me understand even more why this had to be done, if someone came up with a build that produced 1kg of natgas/s that would amount to about 3 aquatuners worth of cooling water nonstop.

Old value natural gas, 1 volcano to boil 10kg/s, or about 600-800kW of volcano heat.

Old value sour gas, 6 volcanos to boil 10kg/s, or about 7000kW of volcanic heat.

New value sour gas, 0,8-1,3volcanos to boil 10kg/s.

*

What all of you seem to miss, is that low SHC @ sourgas meant you needed to do oil boiling 100% with brute force. With new values IT becomes viable again to build complex heat exchanger boilers.

This means 1 volcano + design can Make IT work. Old version you needed 5-8volcanos For 10kg/s.

[goatt]

I can not seem to generate sour gas from plastic or naphtha. What i got from these were Natural Gas as of just now.

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, Carnis said:

What all of you seem to miss, is that low SHC @ sourgas meant you needed to do oil boiling 100% with brute force. With new values IT becomes viable again to build complex heat exchanger boilers.

This means 1 volcano + design can Make IT work. Old version you needed 5-8volcanos For 10kg/s.

That was exactly my point as well. It should have been raised enough to prevent thermal runaway to make a self sustaining supercooers impractical but not enough to make oil boilers viable again.

[wachunga]

I don't see 10kg/s NG boilers being a thing. The SHC change greatly reduced the heating required, but it also greatly increased the cooling required. You can reasonably expect to get the initial SG down to about 150C (+/- depending on initial crude oil temp) with the crude oil heat exchanger. From there you can reasonably expect to get it down to about -80C with the NG heat exchanger (67% NG conversion rate). Which leaves about 85C or 1.6MW of cooling @ 10kg/s. You can't currently pick up the sulfur, but let's say you can make a conveyor heat exchanger to dump heat into the sulfur. You're still at about 1MW of cooling.

You'd need about 30 thermo regulators with hydrogen at an energy cost of  about 7kW. Or 7 aquatuners with liquid oxygen at an energy cost of about 8.5kW. The piping alone would make it impractical.

Realistic NG boilers would be more like 500-1000g/s. Good for power, but complicated. A petroleum boiler is simpler and perfectly practical at 10kg/s, I did one months ago. At a reasonable 2kg/s, petroleum boilers are almost trivial in comparison.

I suppose you could add sieve or skimmer coolers between the crude and NG exchangers. It would reduce the effectiveness of the NG exchanger, but with enough sieves you overcome that and reduce the regulators/aquatuners needed. It makes an already complicated build even more complicated though. You could also extend the NG exchanger into the crude/SG segment to help that out. Of course you then have super hot NG instead of just really hot NG. Which may mean having to run your NG generators in vacuum and all the headaches that come from that. 

[nvzboy]

5 hours ago, TLW said:

Not a good assumption.

You can dump heat into liquid sulfur up to 175C. This makes a non-trivial difference to cooling, especially with the sour gas heat capacity change.

Well that proves my point even further that you could cool ridiculous amounts with this process. The assumption is also more of a thing I did to underscore that this is just the heat coming off the differences in heat capacity, otherwise people would call me out that I had included such things you mentioned to make the issue seem worse than it is. Nonetheless you are right, there is even more cooling to be found there.

[Carnis]

9 hours ago, wachunga said:

I don't see 10kg/s NG boilers being a thing. The SHC change greatly reduced the heating required, but it also greatly increased the cooling required. You can reasonably expect to get the initial SG down to about 150C (+/- depending on initial crude oil temp) with the crude oil heat exchanger. From there you can reasonably expect to get it down to about -80C with the NG heat exchanger (67% NG conversion rate). Which leaves about 85C or 1.6MW of cooling @ 10kg/s. You can't currently pick up the sulfur, but let's say you can make a conveyor heat exchanger to dump heat into the sulfur. You're still at about 1MW of cooling.

I suppose you could add sieve or skimmer coolers between the crude and NG exchangers. It would reduce the effectiveness of the NG exchanger, but with enough sieves you overcome that and reduce the regulators/aquatuners needed. It makes an already complicated build even more complicated though. You could also extend the NG exchanger into the crude/SG segment to help that out. Of course you then have super hot NG instead of just really hot NG. Which may mean having to run your NG generators in vacuum and all the headaches that come from that. 

Very interesting numbers. I had expected a single AETN would be enough.

Will do some testing when the update is out.

9 hours ago, wachunga said:

I don't see 10kg/s NG boilers being a thing. 

So, 150C sourgas, cooled with pW boiling to pumpable 122-125C.

Ran through a sieve based 40C pool.

Out at 45C onto -170 methane.

Methane heats to 0C, releases 3.7 mW/10kg. Cools sourgas to near -170.

Seems viable with AETN doing The final cooling directly to SG.

Edit: Short by 1mw due to 33% mass loss.. Will need testing...

[wachunga]

7 hours ago, Carnis said:

Edit: Short by 1mw due to 33% mass loss.. Will need testing...

That's the problem. At 67% NG and 33% sulfur, you end up with too little SHC to cool the SG with an exchanger. 1.699 (0.67*2.191 + 0.33*0.7) vs 1.898 (SG). If they went with 80% NG and 20% sulfur, it would be much more doable. 1.893 vs 1.898. Of course the exchangers are never perfect so you end up with some slop you have to account for with regulators/aquatuners, but that would be relatively little and not an insurmountable thing.

Presumably they don't want to do that because of the huge amounts of power you would get from all that NG. But that's an argument for NG generators still being grossly OP and needing another couple hits from the nerfbat.

[goatt]

How to produce sour gas?

[SkunkMaster]

29 minutes ago, goatt said:

How to produce sour gas?

boil petrol

[Zarquan]

19 hours ago, wachunga said:

That's the problem. At 67% NG and 33% sulfur, you end up with too little SHC to cool the SG with an exchanger. 1.699 (0.67*2.191 + 0.33*0.7) vs 1.898 (SG). If they went with 80% NG and 20% sulfur, it would be much more doable. 1.893 vs 1.898. Of course the exchangers are never perfect so you end up with some slop you have to account for with regulators/aquatuners, but that would be relatively little and not an insurmountable thing.

Presumably they don't want to do that because of the huge amounts of power you would get from all that NG. But that's an argument for NG generators still being grossly OP and needing another couple hits from the nerfbat.

I think you missing a key element here:  Biproducts of the natural gas generator.  We can also use these to cool the sour gas quite a bit.  Here are some calculations if you want 10 kg/s natural gas that I wrote for my thread:

EDIT:  I redid the math in a later post.  This can largely be disregarded.

I will assume perfect heat transfer to a specified possible temperature.  I will have 14.9 kg of sour gas, 10 kg natural gas, and 7.5 kg polluted water (which are approximately the ratios we would actually have for 10 kg natural gas).  With 70C crude oil entering the boiler system, assuming you heat the crude oil to 400 C with the sour gas, you would cool the sour gas from 535C (some temperature is lost in vaporization) to 241.2 C.  At this point, I would run the output natural gas through.  I will assume I previously heated the natural gas to 0 C with the sour gas later down the line.  I will aim to cool the sour gas to around 100 C.  That heats the natural gas to 182.6 C, which I feed to the generators (deleting the heat).  Now I introduce the cold polluted water at 0 C as well.  Using that, I will cool the sour gas to around 10 C, which will heat the polluted water to 81.3 C.  Now, I use the super-cooled natural gas at -161 C and transfer heat in to it from the sour gas, heating the natural gas to 0 C.  That cools the sour gas to -114.52.  To get it to condense, you would only need around 850,000 W of cooling for the 10 kg sour gas.  Far less than the projected 1,490,000 J/s without using the polluted water.

Of course, this leads to practical concern of keeping a natural gas generator at 0 C while it holds 182.6 C natural gas, but I'm sure we can manage.

 

EDIT:  The numbers are off, I will redo this later.

[wachunga]

I think you may have dropped a tens unit somewhere, or I'm not following your math. If we base our final cooling required off of -114.5C (which seems fine if we want to bring cooling the generators into the picture), we need to drop it another 47C to -161.5C. Actually more like 49C to -163.5C because of game mechanics, but then your start point would be a bit less, so let's just go with 47C.

So for 10kg/s, 47C * 1.898J/g/C * 10kg/s = 892kW. 6.3 aquatuners using lox or 26.5 regulators using hydrogen.

Or for 14.9kg/s, 47 * 1.898 * 14.9 = 1.33MW.

In theory we could add a sulfur heat exchanger and get the jump off point down more. But conveyors in SG's conductivity of 0.018 are atrocious heat exchangers and best ignored. You could do something like the SG in radiant pipes in metal tiles with the conveyor, but you are still limited by sulfur's conductivity of 0.2. And the build is rapidly spiraling out of control into a convoluted mess.

[Zarquan]

7 minutes ago, wachunga said:

I think you may have dropped a tens unit somewhere, or I'm not following your math. If we base our final cooling required off of -114.5C (which seems fine if we want to bring cooling the generators into the picture), we need to drop it another 47C to -161.5C. Actually more like 49C to -163.5C because of game mechanics, but then your start point would be a bit less, so let's just go with 47C.

So for 10kg/s, 47C * 1.898J/g/C * 10kg/s = 892kW.

Or for 14.9kg/s, 47 * 1.898 * 14.9 = 1.33MW.

In theory we could add a sulfur heat exchanger and get the jump off point down more. But conveyors in SG's conductivity of 0.018 are atrocious heat exchangers and best ignored. You could do something like the SG in radiant pipes in metal tiles with the conveyor, but you are still limited by sulfur's conductivity of 0.2. And the build is rapidly spiraling out of control into a convoluted mess.

You are right.  I guess my math is just off today....I multiplied by 10 instead of 14.9...I'll fix it.

[wachunga]

Your point stands though, you could cool the generators to -20C even and improve things a bit further. It's all just a mess though. I don't mind complexity, I did the following, but ugh.

Spoiler

 

 

[Zarquan]

Just now, wachunga said:

Your point stands though, you could cool the generators to -20C even and improve things a bit further. It's all just a mess though. I don't mind complexity, I did the following, but ugh.

  Hide contents

 

 

An annoying thing is that you can't easily give the natural gas generators an atmosphere because part of my strategy involved overheating the natural gas to 150 C to avoid boiling the polluted water.  I think at -20 C, there isn't a liquid that sits on polluted water.  But I bet it can be done.

[wachunga]

23 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

 I think at -20 C, there isn't a liquid that sits on polluted water.  But I bet it can be done.

Right, I forgot about that.

So how about we supercool the generator with a puddle of lox (an exercise left to the reader :p). The polluted ice output doesn't seem to sublimate so maintaining a vacuum isn't a problem. Then you use the SHC and cold of that polluted ice to cool the SG (another exercise left to the reader :p).

[Carnis]

On 5.9.2018 at 9:45 AM, wachunga said:

 

3 hours ago, wachunga said:

Right, I forgot about that.

So how about we supercool the generator with a puddle of lox (an exercise left to the reader :p). The polluted ice output doesn't seem to sublimate so maintaining a vacuum isn't a problem. Then you use the SHC and cold of that polluted ice to cool the SG (another exercise left to the reader :p).

Cooling generators can Be done, I used to have mine at around 15C when farming sleet wheat.

But without cooling they heat upwards to 100C. So Id Day cooling them enmasse to -20 is nontrivial.

Could run your sourgas through polluted water geyser (30C), or slush (-10C).

Still IT seems we need 5 aq tuners running LOX or methane, so, Hell. + What deletes The heat of The tuners?

[SkunkMaster]

1 hour ago, Carnis said:

 

Still IT seems we need 5 aq tuners running LOX or methane, so, Hell. + What deletes The heat of The tuners?

the 100 weezes you've gathered from the ice planet

[Zarquan]

You can also cool the thetmoregulators or aquatuners with the polluted water.  In fact, I bet that's the key.  If you could heat the polluted water from -20 to 110 C, that would cover 143 C of temp change to the sour gas.  Also, it is easier to apply the CO2 to cooling.  If we heated the CO2 from -20 to 110 C that would also apply 10 C temp change, so we get a total of 153 C of cooling we can apply for free.  But that removes it from the cooling using the water in my earlier math.  I'll do more accurate calculations later.

It should be noted that the water could be applied directly to the sour gas as long as the sour gas is warmer than the water.  After that, we can dump the polluted water on the thermoregulators.

[Carnis]

Deleting The heat isnt a big issue actually.

Large pW pool of any temperature Will Be ok. When hot enough, empty to sieve deleting heat.

But6 lox aquatuner might Be.

I think methane would be difficult to keep stable, but this would have 2 benefits:

A) 3 tuner loops would Be enough.

B) The process generates methane, so no need For an outside lox machine.

[Zarquan]

I thought of methane too, but it has a very narrow range of temperatures at which it it liquid.  I think hydrogen with thermoregulators is easier.

[Zarquan]

OK.  Take 2 on the math. 

Starting with 10 kg sour gas 538.9 C, which results in 6.7 kg natural gas -161.5 C, 5.025 kg polluted water -20 C, 1.675 kg of CO2 -20 C, and 10 kg 70 C crude oil. 

I transfer heat from sour gas to crude oil up to 400 C.  That cools the sour gas from 538.9 to 245 C.

I then transfer heat from sour gas to natural gas, cooling it to 121.7 C.  This heats the natural gas by 159.4 C, from -0.5 C to 158.9 C.

I then transfer heat from sour gas to polluted water.  I cool the sour gas to -0.5 C, which heats the polluted water to 90 C.

I then transfer all the heat I can from the -0.5 C sour gas to the -161.5 C natural gas.  I heat the natural gas to x, cooling the sour gas to -125 C, heating the natural gas to -0.5 C. 

That leaves 36.5 C that needs to be removed, resulting in 692,350 J that need to be removed.  We will use thermoregulators to move the heat from the sour gas to the polluted water and CO2, heating each to 110 C.  The polluted water can take 421,800 J.  The CO2 can take 184,200 J of heat.  That covers 606,000 J of heat, therefore only leaving 86,300 to be removed.  That can be dealt with by using 7.2 wheezeworts. 

It will take 21 thermoregulators to manage this heat transfer at the rate of 10 kg/s of sour gas.

21 thermoregulators costs 5040 W to run.  Easily covered by the power gains.

Once we can move the sulfur, we can reduce this cost significantly and the system should net cool.