New 4KW transformer

[LeftyRighty]

I'm missing something here, the new transformer can output 4KW... we have 1, 2 and 20 KW cables... so how do you make use of the 4KW? (or put another way, why did the devs choose 4 and not 2 for the higher level transformer)

[Ambaire]

I'm calling a typo in the code.

[SkunkMaster]

Maybe the point is not for 2kw wires, but for power management. you can burn 20kw wires also you know. 

[Kabrute]

4x5=20, lets you do network splitting, maybe the industrial sector has an 8kw kw limit? using 1kw and 4kw transformers in some combination will allow for every whole number wattage to be achievable so I say Perfect

[Editam]

Stagger the power transforming like you would in the real world. Main lines (100,000+ volts) would also fry the feeder lines if it weren't for sub-stations. Then the feed line's voltage (1000's of volts) would fry your household mains (100-200 volts) if it weren't for the feed line transformer. With each progressive step down the expense of materials becomes cheaper too.

[Sevio]

11 hours ago, LeftyRighty said:

I'm missing something here, the new transformer can output 4KW... we have 1, 2 and 20 KW cables... so how do you make use of the 4KW? (or put another way, why did the devs choose 4 and not 2 for the higher level transformer)

I think the main use of this (save for power switch shenanigans with automation) is to allow you to significantly reduce heat generated by the transformer using a smart battery on the low side. Even with a constant 2kW draw on the low side, you can reduce the transformer uptime by 50% because it will be able to charge the low side battery at 4 kW. The benefit increases with lower average draw.

I'm not entirely sure on the mechanics of transformers as the only consumer on a 2 kW circuit but if that doesn't cause overload you can hook up to 5 hydrogen/natgas generators to one transformer's high side and power your 20 kW main circuit off of that.

[Lilalaunekuh]

The new update reduced the "power transformer" from a 5kW to a 4kW building (now you produce slighly more heat and it takes a bit longer to refill a battery) and the capacity was increased from 1kW to 4kW.

=> Why not build a battery bank just using power transformers ?

(No runoff and to guarantee a continuous usage you need to control the temperature of the power transformer anyways. So why not see the heat as an upside ?)

[Sevio]

@Lilalaunekuh Unless you stick the transformers in gigantic insulated room where a steam generator can eat up the heat, this would be a pretty horrible way to store your power.

(Below stats include the 200x multiplier for any building generating heat to have more readable numbers)

Tiny Battery: 125 W heat / kJ power stored

Battery: 31.25 W heat / kJ power stored

Smart Battery: 25 W heat / kJ power stored

Big Transformer: 250 W heat / kJ power stored

Heat wise, it's twice as bad as using tiny batteries, not to mention the huge amount of space needed and more complicated circuitry since you need a separate generator circuit to power your main circuit.

[Lilalaunekuh]

14 minutes ago, Sevio said:

Heat wise, it's twice as bad as using tiny batteries, not to mention the huge amount of space needed and more complicated circuitry since you need a separate generator circuit to power your main circuit.

For all batteries you can calulate how much (electrical) energery is converted in a specific amount of heat.

=> Batteries are just different versions of space heaters (Converting electrical in thermal energy)

But transformer have no runoff right now, so you can create energy without a cost.

 

Most of the time I try to insulate my power plant using vacuume, so I was always forced to build some kind of cooling loop for my transformers.

=> Why not see the heat as a benefit since the transformers can be build with an overheat temperature of 275C ^^

(Since EU I need much more circuits to prevent overload damage, but most of the circuits use just a little amount of power. So I am forced to use more power transformers anyway)

[Sevio]

I just did some numbers and if you're also going to use the most efficient active cooling we have (aquatuner cooling 10 kg polluted water) to cool your transformers, I arrive at the following:

250 W / (6 * 14 * 10000) = 2.976 e-4 Aquatuner uptime fraction for 1 kJ energy stored

2.976 e-4 * 1200 W = 0.357132 W of power draw for 1 kJ energy stored

0.357132 * 600 seconds (1 cycle) = 214.2792 J power runoff per cycle for 1 kJ energy stored.

If we compare that to a smart battery including its heat:

Battery runoff: 400 J / 20 kJ = 20 J power runoff per cycle for 1 kJ energy stored

The smart battery produces 25 W heat per kJ energy stored which is conveniently 10% of the big transformer, so we can just take 10% of the above number and add the battery's runoff:

10% * 214.2792 + 20 J =  41.42792 J power runoff per cycle for 1 kJ energy stored.

The smart battery really is quite smart if you factor in the hidden energy cost of active cooling for your power-storage-transformers.

I'm also being generous to the Aquatuner case by not including the cost of any liquid pumps, liquid shutoffs and/or water sieves used in the process of setting up and running sustainable Aquatuner cooling.

[blash365]

1 hour ago, Sevio said:

I think the main use of this (save for power switch shenanigans with automation) is to allow you to significantly reduce heat generated by the transformer using a smart battery on the low side. Even with a constant 2kW draw on the low side, you can reduce the transformer uptime by 50% because it will be able to charge the low side battery at 4 kW. The benefit increases with lower average draw.

The transformer generates 4w heat, while the battery generates 2,5w heat.

transformer without battery: 4w (permanent usage)

transformer with battery: 2w (50% usage) + 2,5w (permanent usage of battery) = 4,5w

To me it seems to be generating more heat, not less.

[Lilalaunekuh]

27 minutes ago, Sevio said:

250 W / (6 * 14 * 10000) = 2.976 e-4 Aquatuner uptime fraction for 1 kJ energy stored

2.976 e-4 * 1200 W = 0.357132 W of power draw for 1 kJ energy stored

0.357132 * 600 seconds (1 cycle) = 214.2792 J power runoff per cycle for 1 kJ energy stored.

Interesting calculations, but keep in mind that you did the math to move some heat not to delete it.

 

The power transformer solution needs (214.2792J /41.42792J = ) 5.1723 times the amount of electrical energy to keep the temperature, but it is 100% efficient at converting "our runoff" ("ingame" runoff + calculated enegery to run an aquatuner) into thermal energy.

If the thermal energy would be destroyed the smart battery would be far superior, but in our case we are just moving the heat.

=> The power transformer is a more efficient "space heater" than a smart battery

(Let´s say you build a passive design heat exchanger with some tempshift plates and use the power transformers to heat polluted water into steam. So you need no power to move the heat and you can save some energy for a water sieve^^. Without a good source of heat boiling polluted water consumes to much thermal energy.)

 

 

 

 

PS:

2 minutes ago, blash365 said:

transformer without battery: 4w (permanent usage)

transformer with battery: 2w (50% usage) + 2,5w (permanent usage of battery) = 4,5w

To me it seems to be generating more heat, not less.

We are talking about using just power transformers to build a big battery, not how we could optimize the heat generation of a power transformer.
 

[blash365]

2 hours ago, Sevio said:

I think the main use of this (save for power switch shenanigans with automation) is to allow you to significantly reduce heat generated by the transformer using a smart battery on the low side.

emphasis mine

12 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

We are talking about using just power transformers to build a big battery, not how we could optimize the heat generation of a power transformer.

Not in the part i quoted though.;)

[Lilalaunekuh]

Just now, blash365 said:

2 hours ago, Sevio said:

I think the main use of this (save for power switch shenanigans with automation) is to allow you to significantly reduce heat generated by the transformer using a smart battery on the low side.

emphasize mine

Point for you

(To be more precise we are talking about differences between smart battery and power transformer based power banks.)

 

Your right if I want to minimize the generated heat. (My standpoint is that power transformers provide "free" thermal energy and I can precisely adjust how much thermal energy is created (vs using a volcano or geyser). Power transformers are the better batteries if you have a use for the produced heat like boiling polluted water)

[Sevio]

48 minutes ago, blash365 said:

The transformer generates 4w heat, while the battery generates 2,5w heat.

transformer without battery: 4w (permanent usage)

transformer with battery: 2w (50% usage) + 2,5w (permanent usage of battery) = 4,5w

To me it seems to be generating more heat, not less.

The heat number I read ingame is 5 W for a power transformer, not 4 W. So that would bring our smart-battery-automated transformer combo at constant 2 kW draw to exactly 5 W of heat production, the same as using an always-on transformer. So there's no overall heat saving benefit and you have a slight power runoff, but not a lot of circuits run the full 2 kW all the time so the savings comes from the downtime.

It looks to me like these numbers are deliberately balanced to make smart battery automation worthwhile in nearly all cases and never worse for heat than an always-on transformer.

[blash365]

I guess i confused the numbers associated with the different W's then. My mistake.

[martosss]

You can supply up to 4kW of consumers, that means you can charge batteries + supply consumers on several smaller circuits, or use several transformers on 1 cable. You can check my tutorial to see how to utilize transformers for 3-4 circuits.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 7/26/2018 at 3:42 PM, LeftyRighty said:

I'm missing something here, the new transformer can output 4KW... we have 1, 2 and 20 KW cables... so how do you make use of the 4KW? (or put another way, why did the devs choose 4 and not 2 for the higher level transformer)

4kw lets you recharge a battery while also powering a 2kw device.  The battery doesn't count against the wattage of the wire, so you don't have to worry about burning the wire out.

[ShadowOfALegend]

Does this mean we now have a means of sustaining a steam generator?

now i can power my cappuccino machine using my septic tank supply