Volcanoes should not produce refined metals

[Yunru]

14 minutes ago, Exa said:

Devs can create a special liquid state for raw metal who solidify into raw metal who itself melts into refined metal

The volcano spews the metal. It sets into raw metal.

It erupts again, spewing more molten raw metal. Which transfers it's heat to the set raw metal, melting it into refined metal.

 

The only thing that would change is that the top layer would be raw metal.

[JonnyMonroe]

8 minutes ago, Exa said:

Devs can create a special liquid state for raw metal who solidify into raw metal who itself melts into refined metal

then they make volcano spit that liquid instead of regular melted metal

phase changes doesn't have to be the same in both way

exemple : polluted water turn into steam who turn back into water

so the game engine already allows this

State change and element change are 2 independent things in the game engine. This hypothetical liquid ore would need to be a separate element that undergoes element change to a normal ore at it's freezing temperature. You can't just do the normal ore in a liquid state above it's own element transition temperature as it would always change to refined metal.

Still don't think this is needed though. Basic ores don't have any ongoing consumption so there is no need for them to have on going supply. It's not like the game doesn't provide enough of them.

[Yunru]

1 minute ago, JonnyMonroe said:

Basic ores don't have any ongoing consumption

They do, but that's the problem that should be addressed, not this (that is, being unable to build machines out of refined metal instead of raw).

[JonnyMonroe]

Just now, Yunru said:

They do, but that's the problem that should be addressed, not this (that is, being unable to build machines out of refined metal instead of raw).

What ongoing consumption do basic ores have?

[Exa]

6 minutes ago, Yunru said:

The volcano spews the metal. It sets into raw metal.

It erupts again, spewing more molten raw metal. Which transfers it's heat to the set raw metal, melting it into refined metal.

 

The only thing that would change is that the top layer would be raw metal.

good thinking

what about totally remove the phase change solid raw -> liquid refined and keep solid raw -> liquid raw everywhere?

[BlueLance]

Well they already have element changes without state changes, oil becomes petroleum.

They could just make it that refined metal needs another ingredient and let liquid metal solidy into its raw form

[Yunru]

13 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

What ongoing consumption do basic ores have?

Every building that requires them.

Unless you simply stop building, there's always a ongoing consumption of basic ores.

7 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

Well they already have element changes without state changes, oil becomes petroleum.

They could just make it that refined metal needs another ingredient and let liquid metal solidy into its raw form

Which would make designing a building free system impossible, which eliminates half the fun.

[JonnyMonroe]

1 minute ago, Yunru said:

Every building that requires them.

Unless you simply stop building, there's always a ongoing consumption of basic ores.

Thats not ongoing. Nor is it consumption. Each building is a 1 time use of the ore and it can be reclaimed by deconstructing the building.

Plants have an ongoing consumption of water. Dupes have an ongoing consumption of oxygen. Powered buildings have an ongoing consumption of power. A heavy wire simply reserves the finite amount of ore its made of until you replace it with a conductive, which reserves the same finite amount of refined metal.

You could argue that exo suits consume the copper ore as that can't be recovered, but that's still not an ongoing consumption.

[Yunru]

5 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

Thats not ongoing. Nor is it consumption. Each building is a 1 time use of the ore and it can be reclaimed by deconstructing the building.

Plants have an ongoing consumption of water. Dupes have an ongoing consumption of oxygen. Powered buildings have an ongoing consumption of power. A heavy wire simply reserves the finite amount of ore its made of until you replace it with a conductive, which reserves the same finite amount of refined metal.

You could argue that exo suits consume the copper ore as that can't be recovered, but that's still not an ongoing consumption.

Right sure, technically it's reclaimable. If you're willing to sacrifice the building. A permanent investment of a resource is enough for me to call it "consumption". And as I said before, as long as your building, your consuming.

22 minutes ago, Exa said:

good thinking

what about totally remove the phase change solid raw -> liquid refined and keep solid raw -> liquid raw everywhere?

Well then you've gone from creative ways to refine metal without using a building to "put it in a building". Which is far more boring.

 

Honestly if you want raw metal from volcanoes, I say have it be mixed with magma.

[JonnyMonroe]

4 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Right sure, technically it's reclaimable. If you're willing to sacrifice the building. A permanent investment of a resource is enough for me to call it "consumption". And as I said before, as long as your building, your consuming.

You can't build forever though. Even if finite resources allowed you to fill the map with buildings, room constraints will still stop you. A 1 time use of a resource, even if it is repeatable, is still not consumption. Especially when it is technically reservation (it's an important difference - a build with reserved materials can be optimised later on to reclaim some of those materials by making it smaller and more efficient). Ongoing consumption means something is passively destroying a thing. If I build a stable enough base I could leave it for 5000 cycles and dupes would be consuming o2, gas gens consuming gas, slicksters consuming co2 for every single 1 of those cycles. Taking 400kg of iron ore and turning it into an aquatuner in a reversible process is not consumption no matter how many times you repeat it.

 

I've built some pretty big and elaborate bases and never come close to using all raw metals on the map. It's simply not an issue unless you're going out of your way to waste it by making things like tempshift plate walls out of ores.

[Lilalaunekuh]

15 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

I've built some pretty big and elaborate bases and never come close to using all raw metals on the map. It's simply not an issue unless you're going out of your way to waste it by making things like tempshift plate walls out of ores.

Right now there are just 2 buildings which consume most of my raw metal:

1. Fire pols ( I try to build a good amount of them^^ )

2.Radiant gas pipes

[Sevio]

@Lilalaunekuh Granted the fire poles will use a good chunk of your raw metal, but I don't think you really need more than 2 "Hellevators" going from your base to the oil layer. For short distances between floors, plastic ladders are plenty!

What are you using radiant gas pipes for that you need a significant amount of raw metal?

[Lilalaunekuh]

Outside my main base it´s not really a friendly astroid, I have uncapped volcanos and more

(So plastic outside my base isn´t reliable, so I don´t use transit tubes or platic ladders there^^)

 

I use electrolyzers as my main power source, so I have many pipes running hot/cold gas around my base.

(I cool a volcano with cold oxygen and have some really good temperated rooms (>50 tiles and 0,1°K temperature difference in a worst case scenario, but most of the time my rooms got the same temerature everywhere^^))

 

PS: I know most of my raw metal was used on not necessary stuff and could be build in some other way^^

[landromat]

1 hour ago, Exa said:

Devs can create a special liquid state for raw metal who solidify into raw metal who itself melts into refined metal

then they make volcano spit that liquid instead of regular melted metal

phase changes doesn't have to be the same in both way

exemple : polluted water turn into steam who turn back into water

so the game engine already allows this

So then we should get dirty steam for polluted water by your logic

[BlueLance]

2 minutes ago, landromat said:

So then we should get dirty steam for polluted water by your logic

No, he is saying currently polluted water can do this, so why cant the devs make it the same with molten metal and solid metal. 

Not to make polluted water act the same way XD

Also Phosphorite is a nice example as well, when melted it becomes liquid phosphorous, when cooled it becomes phosphorus instead of phosphorite

[Yunru]

11 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

No, he is saying currently polluted water can do this, so why cant the devs make it the same with molten metal and solid metal. 

Not to make polluted water act the same way XD

Also Phosphorite is a nice example as well, when melted it becomes liquid phosphorous, when cooled it becomes phosphorus instead of phosphorite

But it's a good comparison.

Why should Volcanoes produce Raw Metal rather than Refined?

For realism? Realism isn't, and should never be, considered.

For fun? What fun does it add? (Answer: More raw metal to play with)

 

Why is polluted water boiling away it's impurities acceptable, but melting out the impurities of raw metal not?

[landromat]

14 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

No, he is saying currently polluted water can do this, so why cant the devs make it the same with molten metal and solid metal. 

Not to make polluted water act the same way XD

Also Phosphorite is a nice example as well, when melted it becomes liquid phosphorous, when cooled it becomes phosphorus instead of phosphorite

because molten metal can not become ore, like steam can not become polluted water. this is not logical. I don't think adding new non-logical liquid raw metal is very good idea, that's like adding polluted steam. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

8 minutes ago, landromat said:

because molten metal can not become ore

If we would argue for realism we would just need some oxygen

(But if we start this, I want mercury if I refine my gold amalgam)

[BlueLance]

14 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Why is polluted water boiling away it's impurities acceptable, but melting out the impurities of raw metal not?

Because you are still left with the impurities to deal with, molten metal doesn't have any. in this game, irl it does lol

[landromat]

Just now, Lilalaunekuh said:

If we would argue for realism we would just need some oxygen

(But if we start this, I want mercury if I refine my gold amalgam)

we're still in beta so maybe you'll get it. this game pretends to be semi-realistic. Not 100% Devs ignore realism if it makes game unfun or too complicated

[Yunru]

3 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

Because you are still left with the impurities to deal with, molten metal doesn't have any. in this game, irl it does lol

So? Have it drop impurities like polluted water does, done.

[BlueLance]

Just now, Yunru said:

So? Have it drop impurities like polluted water does, done.

I wouldnt mind that, Also doesnt clean water turn into polluted water now when it comes into contact with polluted dirt?

[JonnyMonroe]

42 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

I wouldnt mind that, Also doesnt clean water turn into polluted water now when it comes into contact with polluted dirt?

Does it? That's news to me.

[BlueLance]

Just now, JonnyMonroe said:

Does it? That's news to me.

I seen it in a post so I am not 100% sure, someone was making a build that used a water seive to convert the clean water back into polluted water using the dirt dropped. It was before ranching so i dno if it is still a thing or if he made it up. Hence why i said it with a ? at the end.

I know it used to be clean water would become polluted if three sides of it were touching polluted water.

[Gurgel]

On 5/26/2018 at 4:11 PM, FullMetalArthur said:

Speaking of which, how do you cool down the 600C refined metal from the volcano?

Yeeery traditionally: Dump it in water or dump water on it.

I found that <2 (e.g.1.5) tiles high of water keeps the a metal volcano going and > 2 tiles stops it. I currently just keep 1.5 tiles of water on the volcano circulating with a larger reservoir nearby until the water gets to 60C and then I flood the thing to 3 tiles or so and let the metal cool. 

Note that polluted water has better heat capacity. Also note that iron has about 3 times the heat capacity of gold and, in addition, exchanges heat slower with the water. Getting 10t or so of iron and 30t or so of gold in one go, starting with 80t of polluted water at 25C is really no problem. Of course, cooling the water down for another go really takes a while. But 30t gold lasts long and iron for steel making can be gotten easier from the surface anyways, the Metal Refinery does not care if it is hot.